Talk:Polish areas annexed by the Soviet Union

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[edit] Old talk

I think there should be a distinction between those who were killed. and those who were deported. BTW, on many occasions those deportations actually saved the lives of their victims, especially when they were Jewish, that otherwise could have been killed by the Nazi who invaded these areas on 1941.

--- I don't know whether there is any reliable data on how ratio dead/survivors. And deported usually were not _saved_. Those who leave Kresy for seeking job etc were. --sozpen


[edit] A map is essential

This entry is all but unintelligible to the average non-Polish reader without a map. Remember, George W. Bush couldn't find Slovenia on the globe... --Wetman 05:57, 10 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Perhaps you're right, I'll try to prepare something based on my Image:Poland 1939.png map, as soon as I finish my work on the Image:Rzeczpospolita.png project. [[User:Halibutt|Halibutt]] 06:37, Dec 10, 2004 (UTC)

[edit] article's name

Would not the name Territories of the Second Polish Republic annexed by the Soviet Union be less amibiguous? The current name is more ambiguous as it may read either that these were territories of Poland (correct) or that these were the territories mostly populated by Poles (incorrect). --Irpen 16:46, 16 June 2006 (UTC)

I am not sure if there is much confusion, this should be better explained in the article unless there is a need for disabig, I think.--Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus Talk 17:48, 16 June 2006 (UTC)
Besides, Poland is and was the name of the state. "Second", "Third", "Fourth" and "Umpteenth Republic" are just short-hand names invented and used by journalists and, at times, historians. However, they have no official status and I'd discouraged their usage in article titles. //Halibutt 19:28, 19 June 2006 (UTC)

How about "Territories of Poland annexed by the Soviet Union". Also complemented by "Territories annexed by Poland" for what happened following the WW1? --Irpen 19:32, 19 June 2006 (UTC)

I'd keep the current title, but "Territories of Poland annexed by the Soviet Union" seems fine as well. BTW, we might extend the scope of this article to territories of Poland annexed by the Soviet Union in the aftermath of WWI as well. //Halibutt 20:19, 19 June 2006 (UTC)

Which territories do you mean? They needed to be "of Poland" in the "beforemath" of the WW1. --Irpen 20:22, 19 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Credibility of census figures

Among the population of Eastern territories were circa 38% Poles, 37 % Ukrainians, 14,5 % Belarussians, 8,4 % Jewish, 0,9 % Russians and 0,6 % Germans"

If this is based on the census of the 1930s based on "mother tongue", then it is not reliable. This census listed 6 million listed as Ukrainian, Belorussian, "Ruthenian", and "Local". Yet, it also listed 7 million as having belonged to Orthodox and Uniate religions which were exclusively composed of the East Slavic groups. The Polish regime tried intentionally to mask the presence of minorities as Joseph Rothschild's volume on East-Central Europe demonstrates. The Warsaw regime claimed there were 800,000 Germans in the census while the German government put the number of Germans at 1.5 million. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 68.127.36.66 (talk) 20:44, 5 January 2007 (UTC).

The anonymous contributor is correct. The Polish census data of 1931 breaking out the population by language has been used to puff up the ethnic Polish population in the territories annexed by the USSR. The data listing religion is a better indicator of ethnic identity. The Roman Catholic population is more or less the true ethnic Polish population. The census of 1931 listed 5.5% of the population( 600,000) in the annexed territories as being Polish (by mother tongue) and Eastern Rite Catholic or Russian Orthodox. This is not credible and in fact misleading. The Eastern Rite Catholics or Russian Orthodox should not be considered ethnic Polish, they are “Polish citizens” but not “Poles”. The article lists the language as well as religion in the total population so that readers can judge for themselves.
The Polish government in 1947 claimed 6,028,000 war dead including the 600,000 “Polish” in the annexed territories who were Eastern Rite Catholics or Russian Orthodox . They were not repatriated and presumed dead.
As for the ethnic Germans the Polish census data lists only 800,000 yet 1.4 million signed the Volksliste during the war and fought in Hitler’s Army.--Woogie10w 22:16, 5 January 2007 (UTC)
Wrong, my friends. No division was as simple as you put it. Neither the language criterion, nor the criterion of religion can be used to translate the 1930s nationalities into modern concepts. Apart from the fact that there was a sizeable number of people feeling Polish yet being Uniate or Jewish (my ancestors among them), there were also Polish-speaking Ukrainians (Sheptytskyi, for instance) and Lithuanians. Finally, it was not until the advent of Hitler that the Jewish religion became synonymous to being Jewish. Besides, take note that a huge number of people (notably from Silesia and Pomerania, but also from the Tatras and other parts of Poland) were actually forced to sign the Volksliste. In other words, nothing is as simple as it seems now. //Halibutt 22:22, 11 January 2007 (UTC)
I disagree, religion not the ability to speak Polish determined a persons ethnic identity in prewar Poland. The internal ID document that adults carried listed their religion. The Z for Jews was the way the anti-semites who ran Poland blaclkisted Jews. --Woogie10w 01:26, 12 January 2007 (UTC)
I was told by my father who was a Pennsylvania coal miner that folks from the eastern region of eastern Poland spoke a dialect of Polish that was differant than "regular" Polish. He said the immigrants from this region mixed standard Polish with their local dialect and that Lithuanians tended to mix Polish and their langauge. The "Rusyns" as he called them spoke a language similar to Slovak. The eastern Polish spoke their own local dialect except educated people ie. literate, who could also speak standard Polish. Everybody got along well and the ethnic conflict was with the Welsh. This was Nanticoke Pa. circa 1922. In 1942 things became more intense when my dads family split into two camps; my pop was on the Polish side and his sister in the pro German camp.--Woogie10w 02:55, 12 January 2007 (UTC)
WoogieWoogie, as for Volksliste: number of people signed it because they were forced or listed without their consent (i.e. a lot of Poles in Danzig). Amongst my family I had one uncle which signed Volksliste despite being Polish, while other fought in AK - the family decided that to ensure family survival someone has to sign. As for religion being sole determinant of nationality, that's wrong. I had a lot of people in my family which were orthodox.
Finally, I will leave your "anti-semites who ran Poland blaclkisted Jews" without comment, since such comment is quite typical for polonophobes and from experiences discussion with them are pointless Szopen 09:00, 12 January 2007 (UTC)
No need to make excuses for the Polish traitors who supported Hitler. Those people made the mistake of supporting the losing side and paid the price for their stupidity--Woogie10w 17:28, 12 January 2007 (UTC)
WoogieWoogie, so Jews which served in Jewish Police or Judenrat are Jewish traitors who supported Hitler and mae a mistake of supporting the losing side? As I said, eople HAD NO CHOICE. E.g in Gdansk all Poles, whatever they felt or wanted, were just enlisted in VOlkslist. Szopen 08:49, 14 January 2007 (UTC)
True, when the Nazis knocked on the door in 1940 asking German speakers to sign the Volksliste they were making "an offer you can't refuse", but some people did refuse and paid the price for their loyalty to Poland--Woogie10w 10:39, 14 January 2007 (UTC)
In the USA in 1939 people did not have identity documents that listed their religion like Polish citizens.--Woogie10w 12:41, 12 January 2007 (UTC)
Correct me if I'm wrong, but in the USA in 2007 people do not have identity documents at all either. //Halibutt 16:55, 17 April 2007 (UTC)
Americans must have a Social Security Number, and most people have a drivers license or a State ID card. The police can take you to jail if you can't produce valid proof of identity. See Identity documents in the United States--Woogie10w 19:07, 17 April 2007 (UTC)
When my great grandparents came here from Prussia in October 1886 they were held for a health check and let go to enter the US. My pop said his grandfather had to serve a term in the German Army and hated the Prussians because of the long military service required. There were no ID documents or draft in the US in 1886, my grandfather who was 11 years old then spoke German and Polish at home, he became a US citizen in 1905 at the local court house. My moms people were all here in 1776 and considered themselves Americans, they packed up a covered wagon and moved west to Ohio in 1808, the land was free to take, no questions asked.--Woogie10w 19:23, 17 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Is Bialystok part of West Ukraine

Is Bialystok part of West Ukraine ? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Porar (talk • contribs) 06:06, 16 April 2007 (UTC).

[edit] Catholic Belorussians

While virtually all Uniates and Orthodox Christians were Ukrainian or Belorussian, a sizable minority of Belorussians were also Catholics, further lowering the percentage of Poles in these areas. In the early 1990s, figures for the Catholic population in Belarus ranged from 8 percent to 20 percent. [1]'

The population by religious affiliation does not tell the complete story. Up to 20% of Belorussians are Catholics, further lowering the number of Poles in the areas liberated by Soviet Ukraine and Belorussia. Poles must have been <30% of the population. Catu 08 June 2007, 00:17 (UTC)

This page is for the period up until 1945. Current demographic data is not relevant. Most Poles left this region after the war, about 600,000 remained behind.--Woogie10w 23:30, 7 June 2007 (UTC)
Of course it's relevant. It is a fact that a sizable minority of Belorussians are and have in the past been Catholics. Since appropriate data is not available for the relevant period, it is reasonable to show estimates from more recent years about the percent of Catholic Belorussians. This provides a more accurate analysis of the population in these areas. Catu 08 June 2007, 00:34 (UTC)
I agree with Woogie that modern demographics is not that relevant. While it would be interesting to add religion stats for 1945 (or 1939), modern religion stats for that region as not relevant.-- Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus | talk  23:47, 7 June 2007 (UTC)

It is relevant because it conforms to the fact that a sizable minority of Belorussians are Catholics which was not represented in the tainted Polish demographics. Since the Polish demographics fail to represent the data and because Soviet demographics did not focus on religion, the only option remaining is an estimate of the percent of Catholics on Belorussia from the early 1990s. Catu 08 June 2007, 00:50 (UTC)

No. There have been so many changes (migration) between 1939/1945 and 1990s that your data is mostly meaningless. Feel free to add that date to demographics of Belarus, and feel free to link that article in see also. Anything else is undue weight or pure speculation.-- Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus | talk  05:38, 8 June 2007 (UTC)
Official Catholic data for 2007 lists 9.9% Cathoilcs in modern Beylorussia, including the region in the USSR from 1919-39 [2]--

Woogie10w 23:59, 7 June 2007 (UTC)

Maybe we could have a seperate section on the postwar era in these regions. The communist era and the period after 1991. This is an interesting topic. The status of the ethnic Poles and the Roman Catholic Church in these regions today is not well covered in the English language sources. The user Catu should consider putting the information in a seperate section rather than placing random comments in the article. The modern status of the Poles in this region is a topic I would like to know more about. In Brooklyn where I live there young people from this region who speak broken Polish, Polish mixed with the local dialect.--Woogie10w 02:04, 8 June 2007 (UTC)
I think we have a separate articles for that, particulary Polish minority in the Soviet Union. Although there is no harm in 'post-war' section, I think.-- Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus | talk  05:38, 8 June 2007 (UTC)