Talk:Polari

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[edit] Naff

Resolved.

I'm not sure that the reference to Naff's usage in Porridge is correct. Ronnie Barker claims he invented the word.

I thought it was already in use in the 19th century. -- Error

Yeah, I thought so, too...

[edit] Links to be restored

These two broken links were removed:

[edit] help

Resolved.

I do not understand. All these words

  • bloke
  • bimbo
  • bijou
  • camp
  • drag
  • mince

vastly predate the 50s and 60s! Doops 01:24, 11 May 2004 (UTC)

Agreed, bloke I think comes from Sheldru, which I understand is similar to Romany but is a travellers' cant rather than that of the gay subculture. Bijou is the French word for jewel, and I've never seen it used to mean small. thefamouseccles
A lot of that seems suspect to me too (but then again, any etymology that relies on an acronym does). OED2 says:
* naff - Origin unknown, various theories; naff may perh. be < Italian gnaffa despicable person (16th cent.); Not Available For Fucking is prob. later rationalization; OED Suppl. 1976 compares to N. Engl. slang naffy, naffhead, simpleton.
* bloke - Origin unknown, plus cite of Romany connection. First cite 1851, so definitely not specific to Polari.
* bimbo - It., cf. bambino. First cite 1929 for "woman" sense.
* bijou (a.) - as thefamouseccles says; F. bijou (16th c. in Littré), but "Loosely as adj.: small and elegant, luxurious (applied esp. to houses)." First cite 1668; first cite in "small" context 1860.
* camp (a.) - Etym. obscure, first cite 1909 in present sense.
* drag (n.) - first cite 1870, no etym. beyond drag (v.)
* mince (v.) - first cite 1562!
So it seems pretty clear that those are all fake etymologies (esp. naff, which has two disagreeing etymologies in the article!), so I've elided that section and touched up the bit on naff. — mendel ☎ 23:49, Nov 4, 2004 (UTC)
Unless Polari itself predates the 50's,60's, which I think it does...
This site claims that Polari originated in the 19th century, though it only became huge in gay subulture from the beginning of the 20th: http://observer.guardian.co.uk/life/story/0,6903,409178,00.html This site claims that it was most popular from the 1930's to the 1970's: http://www.ling.lancs.ac.uk/staff/paulb/polari/home.htm

As far as I know Polari was a theatrical cant rather than just a gay one. Secretlondon 8 July 2005 11:44 (UTC)

[edit] A Clockwork Orange

I'm almost certain, most if not all of these terms appear in the lingo spoken by Alex and some of the other characters in "A Clockwork Orange," of course there are words that appear there that don't derive (or share a common history with? maybe?) Polari but could someone with more knowledge about that book and this than me give it a look see?

[edit] Other origin

Some Polari may derive from army slang from WW2 - 'binti' and 'bimbo', for example, were both RAF slang in India, from Hindi, and some may derive from esperanto - 'bona' is Esperanto for 'good'. User:Lincspoacher

Esperanto and Italian and Latin and Catalan,... --Error 21:07, 5 February 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Velvet Goldmine

There is a short Scene in the movie Velvet Goldmine where two old gays are talking in Polari, subtitled into standard English, it could be mentioned here along with the proper quotes and subtitles...

just added! UnderPressure 11:28, 5 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] is 'Lingua franca' accurate?

Instead of Italian, the article says Lingua franca; however, the entry for Lingua franca implies that it was used "throughout the medieval and early modern Middle East" - not something that jibes with Britain terribly well. So, then - which article is mistaken? --moof 10:46, 15 December 2005 (UTC)

Lingua franca or Sabir was the pidgin of Mediterranan ports from the crusades to the French conquest of Algeria. According to the monogenetic theory of pidgins, most of the pidgins and creoles of the world derive from relexifications of Lingua franca and its derivations to adapt to new contacts. For example, English savvy comes from Sabir's sabir, "to know". The transmision to Polari is sailors -> gays -> theater, I think. I am not sure that you can really tell an Italian influence from a Lingua franca one. --Error 00:41, 16 December 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Sorry for the double revert

Thought the anonymous editor had broken something accidentally, but they were trying to add content and editing in steps...so I reverted myself. :) --Syrthiss 12:53, 4 February 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Cleaned up glossary

Although I have no knowledge or real interest in this article, I thought I'd take out the duplicates and sort out other odds and ends.

Please check it and make sure I haven't stuffed up in any way. I feel that it's now a lot better and more organised. JesseLukeWalker 18:11, 5 February 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Hold-all

Is "hold-all" a UK English term? I'm not sure what it means, exactly, in American English. -- Beland 03:05, 3 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Other modern usage

Another use in mainstream media (well not quite that mainstream, but you get what I mean) was in DC Comics old series 'Doom Patrol' when it was written by Grant Morrison circa late 80's. He had a team member known as 'Danny the Street' who was a sentient street that communicated with the team in Polari The biz 15:29, 29 April 2006 (UTC)


[edit] Announcement concerning slang glossary policy discussion

As you are probably aware, there are many slang glossaries on Wikipedia with widespread acceptance, yet virutally all of them violate the following policy:

Wikipedia is not a dictionary

Wikipedia is not a dictionary or a usage or jargon guide. Wikipedia articles are not:

  1. Dictionary definitions. Because Wikipedia is not a dictionary, please do not create an entry merely to define a term. An article should usually begin with a good definition; if you come across an article that is nothing more than a definition, see if there is information you can add that would be appropriate for an encyclopedia. An exception to this rule is for articles about the cultural meanings of individual numbers.
  2. Lists of such definitions. There are, however, disambiguation pages consisting of pointers to other pages; these are used to clarify differing meanings of a word. Wikipedia also includes glossary pages for various specialized fields.
  3. A usage guide or slang and idiom guide. Wikipedia is not in the business of saying how words, idioms, etc. should be used. We aren't teaching people how to talk like a Cockney chimney-sweep. However, it may be important in the context of an encyclopedia article to describe just how a word is used to distinguish among similar, easily confused ideas, as in nation or freedom. In some special cases an article about an essential piece of slang may be appropriate.

This has created a situation where editors trying to enforce policy frequently nominate such glossaries for deletion, with most of the glossaries surviving the process with a consensus of Keep or No concensus. This ongoing battle has been raging on with respect to slang glossaries for at least the past two years. Yet the glossaries have survived, and more continue to be created. Based on the results of the majority of the Article for Deletion (AfD) discussions, the general concensus seems to be that slang glossaries should have a place on Wikipedia. The relevant policy is no longer consistent with general consensus, and this schism has resulted in a large number of pointless AfD discussions which serve only to waste the time and effort of those involved. When the majority of Wikipedians defy a policy, it is time to reevaluate the policy.

Therefore, I have started a discussion on Wikipedia talk:What Wikipedia is not#Slang glossaries to discuss the fate of slang glossaries (such as this one) and to discuss whether or not the policy should be ammended to reflect the defacto acceptance of slang glossaries on Wikipedia. They are here, and based on the results of AfD discussions, they seem to be here to stay. So shouldn't the policy be updated? If the policy was changed to allow slang glossaries or changed to provide for their speedy deletion, either of these solutions would save a lot of time and effort wasted on fruitless AfDs. You are welcome to join the discussion. --List Expert 10:27, 4 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Naff or "naph"?

The BBC published a number of books based on "Round the Horne". In them, it is made plain (presumably on the say-so of Took and Feldman (or, if you prefer, Feldman and Took) that the word _they_ used if spelt "naph".Having seen it, I prefer it spelt so ... —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.6.13.136 (talk)

Irrelevant surely? Polari was spoken more than written (possibly was never much written down except by lexicographers and eventually Took & Feldman) so there was no opportunity for spelling conventions to evolve. Paul Tracy|\talk 09:15, 12 June 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Latin and French

I was just checking out the article, but I am by no means a comprehensive linguist, I do notice that in the list there are certain words that are straight out of Latin (buvare, is a verb meaning "to drink"). Also, in Canadian French, "bijou" is a jewel, but can also mean a trinket or a token.--Waterspyder 21:04, 10 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Baloney!

I don't have references in front of me, but to say that "balonie" has "come into usage . . . also to an extent in America" seems a little backwards. The word (in the US, indeed always spelled "baloney") is a reference to bologna sausage, a common American butcher's creation, inexpensive because of its high content of, er, "parts." Since it is loaded with the odds and ends of the pig, it makes a natural synonym for "rubbish," "bunkum," "nonsense," etc. Americans aren't too good with Italian, so "bologna" became "baloney." In the US the word has a bit of a "gee that's swell, Beaver" ring to it these days (perhaps because we've become more affluent or health-conscious and fewer of us grow up eating bologna?) Anyway, I think it's pretty clear the word crossed the Atlantic eastward, not westward. But like I said, I don't have references in front of me, so you might want to check that one. 69.7.203.153 18:31, 9 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Plate as Felatio?

Whenever I've seen `plate' used sexually in British writing of the appropriate (60s/70s/80s) timeframe, it always appears to refer to cunnilingus. I've never seen or heard it used in other senses. I'm not claiming total knowledge of all things, of course, but it's not uncommon, so it would seem strange that all the uses are in a sense other than the one claimed.

[edit] More baloney

Yes, "baloney" was in American English for quite a long time and is historically a reference to bologna sausage. It should also be noted, however, that it may incorporate some sense of the word "blarney", and be, in a way, a portmanteau word.


I always thought the Polari word was Palony (meaning "woman" - the opposite of ome or Omey or Omi (however it is spelt) meaning "Man". I don't think Baloney was ever a polari word!

[edit] Bitch

I removed the suggestion that the word "bitch" originated or significantly developed in this subculture. I haven't seen, nor can I imagine, any credible argument to this effect. The OED has it in the basically modern sense of the word ("Whom calleste thou queine, skabde biche?") from the 15th century.