Talk:Poland Is Not Yet Lost

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[edit] Opening comments

If we prefer the English name over the original, shouldn't this article be at Dąbrowski's Mazurka? After all that's how it is called... Halibutt 19:20, August 20, 2005 (UTC)

Indeed. Frankly, you shouldn't ask, you should just move it to new location. Current version it's obviously only half-translated. Przepla 15:17, 22 August 2005 (UTC)
Why not the original title? The translated form doesn't seem to be established in English. -- Naive cynic 09:44, 23 August 2005 (UTC)

This article has been renamed after the result of a move request. Dragons flight 18:30, August 28, 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Tense in incipit

The first line in Polish appears to be in the past tense, from the -la ending, and this is supported by the Esperanto version which starts "Ankoraŭ Pollando ne pereis" i.e. "Thus far Poland has not perished". Don't know enough Polish to feel comfortable editing this, but I wanted to at least point it out. --Haruo 10:48, 6 September 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Informal English name

The article currently says the song is informally known in English as ""Poland Will Never Lose Her Life"", but I have never heard of that before. I have heard of "Poland is not yet lost" and "Poland has not yet perished", however. Any objections to my removing the first phrase and inserting the latter two? Olessi 19:52, 7 March 2006 (UTC)

The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the debate was no consensus to move —Mets501 (talk) 03:26, 11 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Requested move, 2006

Dąbrowski's Mazurka → Mazurek Dąbrowskiego — Category:National anthems -- user:Qviri 03:57, 31 October 2006 (UTC)

Since I was asked to elaborate. I had hoped that by pointing out the category, I would make a sufficient point, but okay: Bro Gozh ma Zadoù - Breton title for Brittany; Il Canto degli Italiani - Italian title for Italy; De âlde Friezen - er, Fresian title for Friesland; Ee Mungu Nguvu Yetu - Swahili for Kenya; Kde domov můj - Czech for the Czech Republic; Ertra, Ertra, Ertra - Tigrinya for Eritrea; La Marseillaise - French for France; A Portuguesa - Portuguese for Portugal; Noble patria, tu hermosa bandera - Spanish for Costa Rica; Salve, Oh Patria - Spanish for Ecuador; Das Lied der Deutschen - German for Germany; O Canada - English for Canada; Hey, Slavs - English, presumably to avoid naming controversy; Somalia, Wake Up - English title for Somalia; Patriots of Micronesia - English for FSM; National Anthem of Colombia - English title for Colombia. --user:Qviri 12:49, 31 October 2006 (UTC)
A brief survey of {{Nationalanthemsofeurope}}:
Notably, anthems of Belgium, France, Germany, Hundary, Italy, Portugal, and Spain all use their "given names" in the country's official language, and not English translations. --user:Qviri 01:57, 2 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Survey. 2006

Add  * '''Support'''  or  * '''Oppose'''  on a new line followed by a brief explanation, then sign your opinion using ~~~~.

  • oppose The examples where the local language is used are almost entirely cases where the name is a quotation from the song. (La Marseillaise is an exception, but it is established in English and virtually untranslatable.) This isn't; it's a description, as good in English as in Polish; and intelligible to anglophones only in English. Septentrionalis 16:58, 31 October 2006 (UTC)
  • Support then. Thanks for the clarification, it seems there is a wiki-wide agreement to have anthems under their local names. Long live consistency! //Halibutt 15:37, 6 November 2006 (UTC)
  • Support per nom. Appleseed (Talk) 15:19, 8 November 2006 (UTC)
  • Oppose. Use English. I oppose the suggested name. Instead of the current name, I would suggest the "Dabrowski Mazurka". Shilkanni 22:27, 10 November 2006 (UTC)
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

[edit] Requested move (second time)

The following discussion is an archived discussion of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the proposal was move to Poland Is Not Yet Lost. JPG-GR (talk) 17:50, 13 April 2008 (UTC)

Dąbrowski's Mazurka → Mazurek Dąbrowskiego or Poland Is Not Yet Lost — The reason is the same as for the previous request: most articles about national anthems are at the native title.

Most exceptions, where the English title is used instead, are for countries with more than one official language or for anthems without a title, known simply as "National Anthem of...", none of which is the case here. In the case of Mazurek Dąbrowskiego, the English rendering is particularly awkward since I wouldn't expect most native English speakers to know what a mazurka is, let alone who Dąbrowski was. The Polish anthem is probably better known in the English-speaking world by its incipit, Poland Is Not Yet Lost, which is not, however, the official title.

It's been more than a year since the last, inconclusive, discussion. Articles about anthems have become even more standardized since then, so maybe this time a consensus to move will be reached. —— Kpalion(talk) 11:17, 24 March 2008 (UTC)

During the discussion, another possible move has been suggested: to Poland Is Not Yet Lost, which is probably the most commonly known English name of the Polish national anthem, albeit not its official title. This option is supported by Wikipedia:Naming conventions (use English) and Wikipedia:Official names. — Kpalion(talk) 23:15, 25 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Survey

Feel free to state your position on the renaming proposal by beginning a new line in this section with *'''Support''' or *'''Oppose''', then sign your comment with ~~~~. Since polling is not a substitute for discussion, please explain your reasons, taking into account Wikipedia's naming conventions.
  • Weak Oppose Support move to Poland Is Not Yet Lost - Really needs to be some kind of evidence either way. The move proposal seems to make more of a case for Poland Is Not Yet Lost as the title as it is, according to the proposal, better known in the English-speaking world. Narson (talk) 13:09, 24 March 2008 (UTC) - Altered !vote to support the alternative now it is there. Narson (talk) 14:40, 26 March 2008 (UTC)
    • Comment: My point is that if we had to use an English title, then Poland Is Not Yet Lost might be preferable to Dąbrowski's mazurka. But the Wikipedia standard for national anthems seems to be that native official titles are used for page names, so for the sake of consistency, I suggest a move as proposed above. — Kpalion(talk) 16:48, 24 March 2008 (UTC)
      • No, our standard is, as elsewhere, to call the compostion what English-speakers call it. In the case of the Marseillaise, that is what English-speakers call it. Evidence? Septentrionalis PMAnderson 17:09, 24 March 2008 (UTC)
  • Support either move – although I originally suggested the official Polish title, I'm also OK with the English translation of the incipit. What I object to is the current page name which is an awkward hybrid where English grammar is applied to two Polish words. — Kpalion(talk) 23:15, 25 March 2008 (UTC)
    • Support previous statement – I agree. The current title is awkward and not familiar to an English speaker. We should either use the official Polish title or Poland is not yet Lost for the title of article. I would pledge full support for the latter if it was the English translation of the official title, but it is not, so Mazurek Dąbrowskiego should be considered as well. TFCforever (talk) 02:04, 26 March 2008 (UTC)
    • Mazurka (plural mazurkas) is an English word, derived from the Polish. If you read about your native country in a foreign language, it is preferable to get used to that sort of thing. Grammatically correct Polish should be (but probably will not be ;->) found on the Polish WP; it should not be expected here. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 22:26, 26 March 2008 (UTC)
  • Strongly oppose Mazurek Dąbrowskiego as not English. I have no particular preference between the three English forms proposed. I recall seeing "Poland Has Not Yet Perished" before, and it sounds like a marginally better translation. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 22:30, 26 March 2008 (UTC)
  • Support for Mazurek Dąbrowskiego if consistency forces us to adopt that name. Strong oppose to Poland Has Not Yet Perished, as it's not that song's title. Many Americans are known as Yanks, which doesn't mean we should move the article on Americans to Yankees (or combine the two). //Halibutt 14:28, 27 March 2008 (UTC)
  • Support for Mazurek Dąbrowskiego. Oppose in strongest terms Poland Has Not Yet Perished--Molobo (talk) 20:22, 29 March 2008 (UTC)
  • Support Poland Is Not Yet Lost as per links from user:Kpalion in discussion area. Iamaleopard (talk) 02:50, 30 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Discussion

It does seem from the proposer's own comments that the page should instead be moved to Poland Is Not Yet Lost. That this is not its official name is quite irrelevant. Andrewa (talk) 02:54, 25 March 2008 (UTC)

I included Poland Is Not Yet Lost in the move request as an alternative target page name. — Kpalion(talk) 23:15, 25 March 2008 (UTC)
The problem with that is that people have already voted on the earlier proposal, and it's now not clear what they were voting on. Oh well, done now, the closing sysop will just have to sort it out. Andrewa (talk) 03:14, 26 March 2008 (UTC)
Good point, Andrewa. I notified the users who had voted prior to this change. — Kpalion(talk) 08:45, 26 March 2008 (UTC)

As an example, Time seems to be consistent in it's use of Poland Is Not Yet Lost: [1], [2], [3], [4], [5], [6]. — Kpalion(talk) 23:21, 25 March 2008 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.