Portal talk:Poland/Poland-related Wikipedia notice board/Archive 10

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[edit] Category:Polish Lithuanians

Is this category for Poles of Lithuanian origins, like Czesław Miłosz, or for Polish minority in Lithuanian Republic?Xx236 (talk) 09:46, 31 December 2007 (UTC)

The second, I believe, but that and relevant categories could use some cleanup.--Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk 13:56, 31 December 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Category:Universities and colleges in Poland

Is there a uniform format for people associated with Polish Universities? Eg, in Category:Jagiellonian University, there is Category:Alumni of Jagiellonian University (though I think this would be better called Category:Jagiellonian University alumni), but no Category:Jagiellonian University faculty. On the other hand, Category:University of Warsaw has what I would expect in terms of faculty/alumni (for the longest of times, even that was not good, but it finally got fixed a couple of months ago). As for Warsaw University of Technology, it's a mess: no Category:Warsaw University of Technology, no cat for faculty (no one notable there since 1826?), only the poorly named Category:Alumni of Warsaw University of Technology, with a single alumnus (!). Also, Category:Academics by university in Poland has only one subcategory (U. Warsaw)! At any rate, I could go on, but let me stop. This is a bit frustrating, since I run all the time into articles where I would like to fit in such cats -- for some countries, this is very well done, for others, much less so (see Category:People by university, Category:People by educational institution, Category:Academics by university, Category:Alumni by university or college for more on this). I'm willing to help if there is interest in this, but I figure I'd better ask, first. Turgidson (talk) 20:04, 31 December 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Medininkai

According to German Wiki 95% of the local population has Polish roots. M.K. removes this information. I bet he can find the number in Lithuanian sources, but he prefers to be consor. Is it true that Wikipedia is unreliable? Wow!Xx236 (talk) 15:27, 28 December 2007 (UTC)

German wiki, or any wiki, is not a reliable source per WP:RS. Find a reliable source and it will stay, but unreferenced wiki cruft cannot be defended.--Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk 13:57, 31 December 2007 (UTC)

lt:Medininkų seniūnija informs: 3,2% lietuvių, 93,2% lenkų, 2,9% rusų No source. Now I'm not allowed to quote the apparently statistical office data but I have the right to quote less reliable data from a newspaper. What about removing all Lithuanian Wikipedia unsourced articles?Xx236 (talk) 14:38, 31 December 2007 (UTC)

If you want to edit Lithuanian Wikipeidia, I suggest discussing it there; this is for English Wikipedia discussion.--Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk 14:44, 31 December 2007 (UTC)

Do you have to be so nice?Xx236 (talk) 14:50, 2 January 2008 (UTC)

According the "Атлас Литовской ССР",1981 map at p.129, Medininkai had (using 1979 census data) 500 - 1000 population and approx.10% Lithuanians, 10% Belorussians, the rest - Poles. Bogomolov.PL (talk) 10:19, 15 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Dzielnice

I've created an article on Testament of Bolesław III Krzywousty, and worked on some of articles form that period. How should we translate dzielnica? Currently we have two articles on Duchy, and two on Province:

The latter is also reffered to as Senioral Province or Duchy of Cracow/Kraków; I don't think it is called 'Senioral Duchy'? Silesian Province is known as Duchy of Silesia (disambig). We still need an article on Sandomierz Duchy/Province. Sigh. A mess. As usual :) Help and comments appreciated! --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk 23:57, 1 January 2008 (UTC)

I don't think the term Duchy of Sandomierz (Ksiestwo Sandomierskie) is the most popular. IMHO use either Province or Land of Sandomierz, as Ziemia Sandomierska seems to be frequently used. Tymek (talk) 17:40, 2 January 2008 (UTC)
Land (ziemia) has a different meaning, I believe. Ziemia sandomierska is not the same thing as dzielnica sandomierska (although they may be close).--Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk 21:11, 2 January 2008 (UTC)

A scan of GB indicates to me that "Silesian Province" is an ambiguous term phrasing that often refers to the Prussian provinces of Silesia, Lower Silesia, and Upper Silesia. "Duchy of Silesia", which is about the same information as "Silesian Province", is used more commonly in English.[1] I think it would be best to merge Duchy of Silesia and Silesian Province. Duchy of Silesia is currently an overlinked disambig page anyway, and the different concepts can be described at a merged page. Olessi (talk) 22:25, 2 January 2008 (UTC)

Sounds reasonable. Should we move current DoS to Dos (disambiguation)? --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk 02:31, 3 January 2008 (UTC)
The current DoS dab page does not conform to MOS:DAB. I think it would be best to merge "Silesian Province" (info about the medieval duchy) into "Duchy of Silesia" (the most common common phrasing in English). "Duchies of Silesia", including "Duchy of Upper and Lower Silesia", would be explained and linked to from "Duchy of Silesia". I don't see the need for a separate disambiguation page at all, actually. If necessary, the latter articles can be mentioned at the top of the merged article through WP:TMG. Olessi (talk) 21:23, 3 January 2008 (UTC)
Could you do so? --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk 22:01, 3 January 2008 (UTC)
Sure, I'll try to take a look at everything tonight or tomorrow. Olessi (talk) 22:19, 3 January 2008 (UTC)
That would be much appreciated; can you also take a look at related #Czech Silesia below? --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk 02:01, 4 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Czech Silesia

please observe the move history of Duchy of Opava and Nicholas I, Duke of Opava. Henq (talk) 22:26, 3 January 2008 (UTC)

See also Talk:Duchies of Silesia, and discussion pages of various Duchies affected by RM silliness. --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk 22:48, 3 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] LOT Polish Airlines Flight 5055

I have created an article about Poland's worst airline disaster LOT Polish Airlines Flight 5055 any input will be appreciated. The article also can highlight the "quality" of goods produced in the USSR (and the small value of life in the USSR). Mieciu K (talk) 23:55, 3 January 2008 (UTC)

Interesting. If you could expand it more, it could be DYKed! --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk 01:58, 4 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] An editor asks if WW2 would happen if not for pre-war Polish mass murder of German people

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Causes_of_World_War_II#Polish_pre-war_massacres_of_Germans Interested editors are welcomed to voice their opinion --Molobo (talk) 00:22, 4 January 2008 (UTC)

Oh my. Such extreme revisionist/denialism attitude suprizes me even after years of dealing crackpot theories on Wiki. I'd suggest asking User:Kirill Lokshin for input, he may now if there are applicable policies to deal with such lunacy.--Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk 02:00, 4 January 2008 (UTC)
Let's just try to stay calm and assume good faith, people from other countries often have little or no knowledge about the history of Poland during WWII and it's also our job to change that. The simplest answer to that question is that if there were any real or made up massacres than we would have already written Wikipedia articles about them. Mieciu K (talk) 12:31, 4 January 2008 (UTC)
I have not read the lengthy talk quoted above in detail, but do you state that "any real or made up massacres" related to interbellum Poland are either already covered by en-Wiki articles, or have not occurred (no matter who did it, Gleiwitz-style)? If there is already one or more article, please point me to it. How about documenting Staged or alleged Polish_pre-war_massacres_of_Germans, or similar, starting with the Gleiwitz incident, adding some of the documented German commando acts in late August, plus whatever the Nazis claimed around the time? -- Matthead  DisOuß   14:18, 4 January 2008 (UTC)
We already have an article - Operation Himmler - although it is indeed in need of expansion.--Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk 14:30, 4 January 2008 (UTC)
As far as I know we do not have any reliable sources to write Wikipedia articles about pre-war massacres of ethnic German by Poles. There are no tabu subjects in today's Poland so someone would already try to write a book about those events if they had been real. Of course due to the political atmosphere of that time numerous acts of violance against ethnic Germans or their property have probably taken place but such events can hardly be called massacres. Mieciu K (talk) 15:01, 4 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Wilno Voivodeship (1923–1939)

I believe that 1939 in the name is POV. Xx236 (talk) 10:57, 4 January 2008 (UTC)

Why?--Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk 11:23, 4 January 2008 (UTC)

Because the Polish POV is Government Delegate's Office at Home,Okręgowa Delegatura Rządu Wilno [2].Xx236 (talk) 15:51, 4 January 2008 (UTC)

I am sorry but I don't understand what you are saying. Perhaps you should post a detailed explanation in Polish, too? --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk 16:49, 4 January 2008 (UTC)

I don't accept the Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact and German and Soviet annexations of 1939. The title does.Xx236 (talk) 16:57, 4 January 2008 (UTC)

I do not accept these events either, but after Sept 1939 Wilno Voivodeship, just like any other voivodeship, ceased to exist, whether we like it or not. Tymek (talk) 17:30, 4 January 2008 (UTC)
De facto ceased to exist. Mieciu K (talk) 18:22, 4 January 2008 (UTC)

6,000,000 Jews were also killed De facto, which deosn't prove that the murder was legal.Xx236 (talk) 09:46, 7 January 2008 (UTC)

And the fact it wasn't legal doesn't change the fact that they died.--Kotniski (talk) 08:33, 9 January 2008 (UTC)

The Polish state existed until it was replaced by the Communist puppet, accepted by superpowers. If the state existed it decided about its administrational division. Xx236 (talk) 09:45, 9 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] List of military facilities of the United States in Poland

I would like to create this article. Can anyone provide sources? Appleseed (Talk) 15:31, 4 January 2008 (UTC)

Nothing ATM but I would love to read it and see it DYKed once it is ready! PS. See also to Extraordinary rendition by the United States and National missile defense, perhaps? --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk 16:48, 4 January 2008 (UTC)
According to this image, there are no US bases in Poland, but Poland does provide use of its military facilities to the US. Appleseed (Talk) 18:30, 5 January 2008 (UTC)

On a related topic, there is a pl wiki article that could be used as a basis for List of military facilities of the Soviet Union in Poland.--Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk 00:00, 9 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Heimkehr

Country Poland, Austria - rather Nazi Germany or Germany, AustriaXx236 (talk) 15:34, 4 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] 49th Hutsul Rifle Regiment

A very interesting unit, help is much appreciated. 49th Hutsul Rifle Regiment Tymek (talk) 17:33, 4 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] A very useful template

I found a very useful template that I believe can be put to good use on articles regarding Polish and Central and Eastern European history.

The subject of this article is (or has been) the subject of heavy propaganda campaigns.

All editors are advised to be careful of possible additions of biased or factually incorrect information from such campaigns. The usual policies of using legitimate sources, using sources and objectivity and impartiality apply as always.

--Molobo (talk) 14:23, 5 January 2008 (UTC)

It looks nice but I fear it could be added to hundreds of articles which in my opinion is not the best way to go. - Darwinek (talk) 14:27, 5 January 2008 (UTC)
Incidentally, the same can be said – not only about the subject of European history, but also – about the entire world history, at one point or another. --Poeticbent talk 18:20, 5 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Gustav Ucicky

The article whitewashes Gustav Ucicky. they quietly sabotaged virtually every effort from Berlin to generate Nazi propaganda, making serious dramas Heimkehr (1941) was also honored at the Venice festival. Xx236 (talk) 16:12, 7 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Move "Tadeusz Kościuszko"?

Should anyone wish to comment, it has been proposed here to move "Tadeusz Kościuszko" to "Thaddeus Kosciuszko." Nihil novi (talk) 03:36, 8 January 2008 (UTC)

Good catch; I hope we have nibbed this in its infancy. There are controversial if debatable moves, and there is... that :) --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk 23:26, 8 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] A precedence is being discussed which could mean Wrocław, Szczecin, Gdańsk will be seperated from their pre-1945 history and treated as new cities

Some editors have suggested that due to territorial changes an article about formerly German city should be split into two-one for pre-1945 situation, one article treating the city as entiraly post-1945 creation. I believe such thing could lead to similiar treatment of Wrocław, Gdańsk, Szczecin, being cut into two into Wrocław for post-1945 city and Breslau before 1945. Naturally the outcome of such decision would influence articles about Poland. The discussion is here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Kaliningrad#Some_more_additions_to_name_K.C3.B6nigsberg

Interested editors are welcomed to share their opinion.--Molobo (talk) 18:01, 8 January 2008 (UTC)

For those interested, the proposal is not about two entirely different cities, but about the application of summary style. No one has proposed changes to how cities in Poland are treated, and proposals on different articles should be discussed on their own merit anyway. Olessi (talk) 18:26, 8 January 2008 (UTC)
Olessi it is obvious that this precedence would influence both discussions and Polish related articles since the situation of this city is similar if not identical to the ones in Poland.--Molobo (talk) 18:51, 8 January 2008 (UTC)
No one is discussing "a precedent" (except for you, evidently). There's now an RfC on this, so no need to continue beating the sensationalism drum here, either. Sciurinæ (talk) 19:02, 8 January 2008 (UTC)
If Kaliningrad will be split then logic dictates Polish cities like Wrocław, Szczecin, Gdańsk should be split also, thus such a move will be a precedent, upon further changes to other articles would be supported. After all the situation is identical.--Molobo (talk) 21:28, 8 January 2008 (UTC)

What about Wilno/Vilnius, Kassa/Koszyce? Xx236 (talk) 09:33, 9 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Zvinbudas returns? Please watch Polish minority in Lithuania

In a series of almost laughable vandalisms ([3], [4]) reminescent of this troll, several Polish-Lithuanian articles are being vandalized. Please keep watching the article(s) and revert vandalism if spotted. He has so far vandalized Polish minority in Lithuania and Vilnius district municipality; he is using various IPs meaning it is possible I have not uncovered all of his edits.--Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk 23:24, 8 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Soviet invasion of Poland (1939)

I have translated of the famous/infamous "do not fight the bolsheviks" quote I am wondering if "Soviets" and "bolsheviks" should be capitalised in this quote? Mieciu K (talk) 21:14, 12 January 2008 (UTC)

Yes, I guess they should. I've made the necessary changes.--Kotniski (talk) 08:43, 13 January 2008 (UTC)

While on the subject of this article, shouldn't it be moved to Soviet invasion of Poland, and the latter to Soviet invasion of Poland (disambiguation)? --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk 19:25, 13 January 2008 (UTC)

What do you mean by "it" the quote or the article? Mieciu K (talk) 13:56, 15 January 2008 (UTC)
I presume P. means the article. But I'm not sure why - are the events of 1939 on a different scale of notability than those of 1920?--Kotniski (talk) 17:11, 15 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Poland European Parliament constituency names

Dear WikiProject Poland. I and others under wikiProject:European Union am trying to sort out the European Parliament articles before the June 2009 elections. I have created stub articles for the 13 constituencies in Poland, but I am unsure if they have the correct names. This situation has arisen because the relevant legislation ("The Act of 23 January 2004 on Elections to the European Parliament") doesn't give the constituencies formal names: instead, it gives each of them a number, description, and location of the Constituency Electoral Commission (e.g. "Constituency No 2 - covers the territory of the Kujawsko-Pomorskie Voivodeship, the location of the Constituency Electoral Commission is Bydgoszcz").

There seem to be three commonly-used options as follows:

[edit] Option 1: call them by the names of the Voivodships whose borders they follow

  • The names: 1) Pomorskie, 2) Kujawsko-Pomorskie, 3) Podlaskie and Warminsko-Mazurskie, 4) City of Warszawa, 5) Mazowieckie, 6) Lodzkie, 7) Wielkopolskie, 8) Lubelskie, 9) Podkarpacie, 10) Malopolskie and Swietokrzyskie, 11) Slaskie, 12) Dolnoslaskie and Opolskie, 13) Lubuskie and Zachodnio-Pomorskie
  • Who calls them this? Polish National Election Commission [5], European Parliament Election Website [6], parts of pl.wikipedia [7], [8], [9], [10], [11], [12], and so on

[edit] Option 2: call them by the names of the location of their Constituency Electoral Commission

  • The names: 1) Gdansk, 2) Bydgoszcz, 3) Olsztyn, 4) Warszawa, 5) Warszawa II, 6) Lodz, 7) Poznan, 8) Lublin, 9) Rzeszow, 10) Krakow, 11) Katowice, 12) Wroclaw, 13) Gorzow Wielkopolski
  • Who calls them this? Electoral Geography [13], other parts of pl wikipedia [14], [15], [16], [17], [18], and so on

[edit] Option 3: call them by their numbers

  • The names: 1) Constituency No 1, 2) Constituency No 2, 3) Constituency No 3, 4) Constituency No 4, 5) Constituency No 5, 6) Constituency No 6, 7) Constituency No 7, 8) Constituency No 8, 9) Constituency No 9, 10) Constituency No 10, 11) Constituency No 11, 12) Constituency No 12, 13) Constituency No 13
  • Who calls them this? The Act of 23rd January 2004 on Elections to the European Parliament [19]

The articles are currently listed under their voivodeship names (see Template:European_Parliament_constituencies_2004-2009, albeit under the English transliterations, i.e. "Lower Silesian and Opole" instead of "Dolnoslaskie and Opolskie")

So my questions to you are:

  • What are the names by which the European Parliament constituencies in Poland are generally or officially known?
  • Do you have a reliable secondary source referring to them as such?

Thank you for your assistance in this matter, Kind Regards, Anameofmyveryown (talk) 21:43, 15 January 2008 (UTC)

Hello, thanks for a long question. Well, I think generally media and public tend to use the first variant, it is the regional ones. For correct naming, I would propose to use the English names as used at Voivodeships of Poland, they are generally established by consensus here. Second variant seems also quite logic and good. One way or another, it is up to WikiProject European Union members to decide. By the way, I am from the Czech Republic, any problems with names for constituencies in the Czech Rep.? No? Haa, just kidding. We use one electoral district, whole country = no problem. - Darwinek (talk) 22:10, 15 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Polish geodata sources

I run a bot that adds geographical coordinates to articles that do not already have them, based on cross-referencing Wikipedia dump data with the U.S. government's GEONET Names Server data, applying multiple sanity checks to try to prevent false positives. Recently, it hasn't been doing very well with Polish locations, since they seem to have particularly large numbers of cases where two places in Poland have the same name.

Does anyone have a good source of machine-readable GFDL-compatible geodata for Polish locations? If so, please leave me a note on my talk page. -- The Anome (talk) 00:57, 16 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Roman Catholicism in Lithuania

The article doesn't inform about Polish minority and my editions were removed, Roman Catholic Archdiocese of Vilnius being allegedly a better place for them. That article is based however mostly on 1913 data. Would someone be so kind to contribute adding some 20 century data?Xx236 (talk) 12:08, 16 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Question

This may be a stupid question, but I figure I will ask anyway. In with fire and sword, was Helena Kurcewiczówna technically Polish? I only ask because in my English copy, she is identified as Ruthenian. Should her article identify her as Polish? Ostap 01:25, 19 January 2008 (UTC)

She was the daughter of a Knyaz Wasyl Kurcewicz and an unknown woman, and I think Sienkiewicz thought of her as a citizen of the Commonwealth of Ruthenian origin. IMHO she was a Ruthenian, who later became Polonised. By the way, Izabella Scorupco, who played her in the movie is blond, and real Helena from the book was dark-haired. Tymek (talk) 20:22, 23 January 2008 (UTC)
Thanks. Ostap 20:57, 23 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] CIA World Factbook as a source

I would like to kindly ask your opinion on this view expressed by EconomistBR. He uses pretty strong words (sometimes close to NPA violation) to describe his revert of my map (which I, after explaining my reasons, restored). Still, I am assuming he's doing it in good faith and thus I would like to ask your opinion on the justness of his action (irrespective of the tone he uses, which probably is somewhat less typical than in regular Wikiconversations). Any comment on the sense of keeping or deleting the CIA categories (and a map) are most appreciated in this request for comment. Pundit|utter 21:02, 19 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] WP:RM on Casimir I of Poland

Just to inform, there is a Request for Move on Talk:Casimir I of Poland. Regards, Deacon of Pndapetzim (Talk) 20:10, 22 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Tykocin pogrom

The following discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The article informs about a Nazi massacre of 1400-1500 Jews so the title should be rather Tykocin massacre.Xx236 (talk) 13:57, 29 January 2008 (UTC)

Article creator requested that discussion be held at Talk:Tykocin pogrom.--Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk 20:39, 29 January 2008 (UTC)
The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page, such as the current discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

[edit] Polish culture

I have mostly finished work on Polish culture during World War II. I will now stub and expand Polish culture in the Interbellum; if you have any suggestions (should the name be changed?) or sources I could use, let me know. Then I plan to work on the 1945-1989 culture, see my comment at Talk:Culture_of_Poland#Culture_in_People.27s_Republic_of_Poland and consider commenting there. Thanks, --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk 04:07, 30 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Image:Leśmian.jpg

Proszę admina o sprawdzenie zawartości tego usuniętego pliku, czy nie ma tam podanego źródła zdjęcia. Być może problem polegał na złym doborze tagu licencji. A.J. (talk) 19:57, 30 January 2008 (UTC)

As far as I can tell there was no source and no license. --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk 20:42, 30 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] The Polish grandmother of Marie Taglioni

I wonder if anyone here knows anything about the grandmother of the worldfamous ballerina Marie Taglioni? She was in fact Polish. Her name was Mariane Sophie Stebnowska (another version of her name was Maria Sofia Stempkosta), and she was an opera singer. She married Christoffer Christian Karsten and became the mother of the Swedish ballerina Sophie Karsten and grandmother of Marie Taglioni. She lived 1753-1848 and was from 1782 employed at the Royal Swedish Opera. There does not seem to be any information about her in Swedish wiki about her past before she arived in Sweden, but perhaps she was known in Poland in the 1770s? Perhaps she deserves her article here on English wiki? There does not seem to be any articles at all about Polish actors or singers from the 18th century here. --85.226.235.206 (talk) 20:36, 28 January 2008 (UTC)

sv:Sophie StebnowskaXx236 (talk) 12:33, 29 January 2008 (UTC) Stempkosta isn't Polish, rather Stempkoska or Stempkowska.Xx236 (talk) 12:39, 29 January 2008 (UTC)

I have checked through the Polish Biographical Dictionary; there is no entry under "Karsten" (family name) neither any variant of maiden name (Ste..., Stę...). Picus viridis (talk) 14:26, 30 January 2008 (UTC)

Thank you for taking the trouble to look, I have wondered about that, and Swedish wiki says nothing about her life before marriage. Perhaps she can be found somewhere else eventually. I'll make a link of the name in case there is ever made an article of it. --Aciram (talk) 15:59, 12 February 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Postage stamps and postal history of Poland

I would like to request this article to fill in a red link in {{Postalhistorybycountry}}. Editor(s) who could DYK it would certainly be eligible for an award. Any takers? --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk 06:14, 11 February 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Two Polish elections templates

Should they be merged? {{Polish elections}} and {{Elections in Poland}}. Perhaps we could split them into historical (pre-89) and modern (post-89)? --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk 21:09, 12 February 2008 (UTC)

Personally I'd keep the first one and not bother with a split (unless the navbox becomes uncomfortably big, which won't be for a few years yet).--Kotniski (talk) 21:23, 12 February 2008 (UTC)
I am for the first one, it is a standard template for all countries. - Darwinek (talk) 21:27, 12 February 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Template:Polish Secret State

Falanga didn't exist during WWII, neither did the ONR.Xx236 (talk) 15:48, 8 February 2008 (UTC)

Please correct the template. It misinforms.Xx236 (talk) 09:14, 11 February 2008 (UTC)

I have removed Falanga and ONR. If I'm wrong - please correct.Xx236 (talk) 07:24, 13 February 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Polish Collaboration of the Month

I am thinking about restarting Polish Collaboration of the Month. Would anybody be interested in this?--Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk 06:14, 11 February 2008 (UTC)

Good idea, count me in. Tymek (talk) 19:17, 13 February 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Sarny Fortified Area

I am planning a series of articles about pre-1939 Polish fortifications, both in the east and the west. I started with the Sarny Fortified Area, and help is welcome. Perhaps somebody could make the Category Polish Interbellum Fortifications? Tymek (talk) 20:54, 13 February 2008 (UTC)

Category should be probably "Forts in Poland", in line with other similar categories. - Darwinek (talk) 21:16, 13 February 2008 (UTC)
But then Sarny and many other places would not be included. Besides, in 1920s and 1930s Poland constructed several objects of this kind that IMHO deserve a special category. Tymek (talk) 23:15, 13 February 2008 (UTC)

[edit] IPA for Polish names

I'm writing a program which automatially generates IPA phonetic representation for Polish words, for use in articles on towns, people etc. If anyone considers themselves knowledgeable on this matter, I'd be grateful if you could have a look at the examples at this user page and let me know if you think there are any errors creeping in. Thanks, --Kotniski (talk) 13:59, 12 February 2008 (UTC)

Further to this, I'm also building a couple of templates which may prove useful ({{IPA-pl}} and {{Audio-IPA-pl}}). I left a note about them at Template talk:IPA.--Kotniski (talk) 15:13, 14 February 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Stefan Banach

Ukrainian chauvinists are at it again, turning Polish mathematician Stefan Banach into a Ukrainian. Nihil novi (talk) 08:15, 17 February 2008 (UTC)

Deja vu, an anon again. And again he is calling us chauvinists and nationalists. Obviously, any nationality would be proud to have Banach as their own, but this is ridiculous. Tymek (talk) 23:44, 17 February 2008 (UTC)

Ukrainian chauvinists? Lets see, you have a single anonymous IP address from the US and you are now talking about Ukrainian chauvinists? Of course Banach is Polish. Please lose the anti-Ukrainian sentiment, or at least learn to conceal it better. Ostap 00:46, 18 February 2008 (UTC)

Exactly. A not very active anon fanatic who may or may be a (singular) Ukrainian chauvinist is no need to create such an alarming threat here. Peace, --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk 01:21, 18 February 2008 (UTC)
But he is definitely Polish. Ukrainian wikipedia also lists him as only a Polish mathematician. Given the old comments on the talk page (if its the same editor), he looks more like a Polonophobe than a Ukrainian chauvinist. Ostap 01:49, 18 February 2008 (UTC)
Oh come on Ostap. Nihil Novi was visibly upset, I am sure this is not about anti-Ukrainian sentiment. It just makes you angry when you see something like this. Tymek (talk) 03:10, 18 February 2008 (UTC)
It also makes me angry. Vandal anon's are a plague, but what can we do? --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk 04:08, 18 February 2008 (UTC)

[edit] "Polish-French" Chopin

In case anyone has pertinent information to introduce on the subject, at "Frédéric Chopin" User:Mrglass123 has changed the composer from "Polish" to "Polish-French," citing Encyclopaedia Britannica and an alleged French passport. (This is very much at variance with the view of the Polish Wikipedia.) Nihil novi (talk) 12:28, 27 January 2008 (UTC)

It is also at odds with fr wiki. For some reason I recall debates over Piłsudski nationality, which interestingly never touched Lithuanian Wikipedia, neither. How did this saying go about 'being more holy than a Pope'? :) --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk 02:17, 28 January 2008 (UTC)
Excellent points. Thanks for looking into the matter.
By the way, the poor-quality photo of the supposed "French passport," at some website, bears an imprint, something like "Passeport à Etrangère," "valid for one year," which sounds less like a French passport than some kind of residence permit for a "foreigner," valid for a year. Nihil novi (talk) 03:09, 28 January 2008 (UTC)

The party has now moved (for now) from Marshal Piłsudski's to Fryderyk's, with (who else?) our friend Daniel in attendance! Much fun to be had! All are invited. Nihil novi (talk) 16:42, 28 January 2008 (UTC)

As this board is still on my watchlist, I feel invited. Who will play the piano? -- Matthead  Discuß   01:14, 29 January 2008 (UTC)
Well, I am just wondering where the party people will move now. Any bets, guys? I would say, that after Pilsudski, Szopen and Sklodowska the time has come for Adam Mickiewicz. Tymek (talk) 01:27, 9 February 2008 (UTC)
Can't you imagine what the good old "traveling circus" could make of that "Belarusian poet who wrote in Polish about Lithuania"? Nihil novi (talk) 04:56, 10 February 2008 (UTC)
You never know, but perhaps someone might check Czeslaw Milosz now and then. Tymek (talk) 04:08, 21 February 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Constitution of Belarus and Polish minority rights

The government of Belarus doesn't respect the constitution. AN article about the constitution should inform about it. The same all Soviet/Communist constitutions. A constitution isn't a fiction book to be described because of the quality of the text.Xx236 (talk) 14:33, 14 February 2008 (UTC)

If you are able to expand the article with text on violations, it will be welcomed. Mind citing sources. - Darwinek (talk) 14:52, 14 February 2008 (UTC)
Xx, why don't take your complaints to article talk pages instead of trying to "mobilize" users? Or best yet, improve articles yourself with the properly sourced and neutrally phrased info. --Irpen 20:46, 18 February 2008 (UTC)

My I ask you not adress me here? I don't like you. Xx236 (talk) 14:41, 20 February 2008 (UTC)

1936 Soviet Constitution was one of the most liberal in the world. That doesn't mean Soviet Union was. Nonetheless remember that article's have their scops and government's violations should not be discussed extensively in articles about their constitutions.--Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk 21:14, 18 February 2008 (UTC)

As I studied Law I can say saomething about constitiutions in general: Constitiutions of non-democratic countries at first glance may seem as liberal as the constitiutions of democratic countries. They differ in two major points:

  • The constitiution of non-democratic countries emphesise the obligations of it's citizens when the constitiutions of democratic countries puts the rights of their citizens first.
  • The constitiution of non-democratic countries usually has little or no independent institiutions with real power (like Trybunał Konstytucyjny in Poland) which can force policymakers to respect the constitiution. Mieciu K (talk) 17:52, 20 February 2008 (UTC)
Irpen, the idea of creating such portals is to exchange ideas, remarks as well as complaints. Therefore, your inflammatory comment was not necessary. Tymek (talk) 19:53, 20 February 2008 (UTC)
Tymek, I agree that the exchange of ideas is good. However, what is indeed inflammatory, is to use this board to try mobilize users. This board used to even have a special nice frame on top courteously entitled "Articles in need of attention" or something like that. If I remember correctly, the last straw that broke the camel's back and lead to its removal was when one experienced editor filled this box with "Article 1, Article 2 as well as any article edited by Ghirla". That was blunt enough to perplex one of the board's members who removed the box, hopefully for good. By asking to cut down on "mobilizations" I am trying to achieve calm rather than inflame matters. Inflaming of national announcement boards was tried elsewhere and not by me. If you want details, we can discuss it elsewhere. --Irpen 20:06, 20 February 2008 (UTC)
I spoke to the original poster about this issue on the talk page of the article. As the main writer of it, I just wanted to focus on the document itself and the changes done to it. There are violations of all Constitutions, so I do not see why Belarus has to be that special case. My personal opinion is that any violations against the Polish minority in Belarus (which I know exists, I do not dispute that) should be at another article. I believe there is an article about the Polish minority in Belarus on here. Any thoughts are welcome here or at my talk page. User:Zscout370 (Return Fire) 22:30, 20 February 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Poland-artist-stub

New stub has been created: {{Poland-artist-stub}}.--Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk 19:55, 18 February 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Gwiazda Polski

Yet another fascinating subject from interbellum Poland. As I am not an expert in this field, help is appreciated, look at Gwiazda Polski. Tymek (talk) 19:51, 20 February 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Marika Michalowska

You may be interested in leaving your thoughts on the notability of this Poland-related article at Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Marika Michalowska. Thank you.--h i s s p a c e r e s e a r c h 19:44, 21 February 2008 (UTC)

  • In particular, if anyone could comment on whether or not Laif Magazine is a major music publication in Poland which might be considered a reliable source, that would be quite helpful. --Metropolitan90 (talk) 04:27, 22 February 2008 (UTC)

[edit] POV pushing

Hi.

There appear to be several users with an anti-German slant who are trying to tint a large number of articles in this way. See for example the edit histories of Former eastern territories of Germany and Expulsion of Germans after World War II, especially user Molobo's edits. Most of his changes introduce vocabulary with an anti-German bias and an unbalanced presentation that paints German actions intentionally "evil". (You will also notice my own edits where I try to undo some of that, without much success as Molobo undoes my undos). I don't want to start an edit war with this person, but rather hope that a majority of users will help watch him so that he doesn't have a chance of spreading his POV. I've also notified the German users notice board here where there was a discussion about this problem earlier. Everyone is invited to continue the discussion there.

Note that I'm not trying to push an anti-Polish POV in return. If someone wanted to introduce one, I'd try to stop that too. I believe wikipedia should not judge historical conflicts at all, neither expressively nor subtly. I hope wikipedia authors can achieve this by working together across nations. The German-Polish conficts are in the past and we don't need to fight them here once again. Anorak2 (talk) 08:45, 22 February 2008 (UTC)

Have you tried discussing it with user Molobo directly? --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk 13:56, 22 February 2008 (UTC)
You are absolutely right, I'm also quite sure that a little direct discussion with Molobo will help, I can back you up if nessesary.--Jacurek (talk) 16:04, 22 February 2008 (UTC)
Other people have addressed the issue in the past, it doesn't seem to have helped. Anorak2 (talk) 02:49, 23 February 2008 (UTC)
Anorak, could you specify Molobo's edits you dislike? I do not see anything nationalistic in them. Conflicts are hopefully in the past, but this does not mean that we have to forget about what happened. Tymek (talk) 18:06, 22 February 2008 (UTC)
http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Expulsion_of_Germans_after_World_War_II&diff=193119673&oldid=193001787 (a block of several edits, all by Molobo). I draw your attention to
  • the change of forced migration into migration
  • the comparison to movements of Czechs, Hungarians etc.
  • the wording German aggression
all of which appear to justify the expulsions by either belittling the events or blaming Germans as a nation, thus POV.
http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Expulsion_of_Germans_after_World_War_II&diff=193115326&oldid=19311459 I draw your attention to the wording especially as most of those areas were part of Poland before being Germanised. This phrase appears to justify the ceding of territory, i.e. it takes sides. Also, while it's undisputably true that the territories were Polish or Slavonic at several points in time, it's likewhise true that they were also Germanic or German at several points in time. It's impossible to determine "who was first". Cherrypicking one of those many points in time to "justify" territorial claims (of whichever side) is, well, heavy POV.


http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Expulsion_of_Germans_after_World_War_II&diff=193119300&oldid=193115326 I draw your attention to the wording just like other private property regardless of ethnic background. Once again this phrase appears to justify the expropriation of the expellees' property, thus is takes sides. Also the claim that there was no difference between epropriation of German expellees' real estate and "regular" communist nationalisations is unsourced (and actually untrue AFAIK). The unsourced claim was apparently inserted for the sole purpose of justifying the expropriation, thus is once again heavy POV. Anorak2 (talk) 02:49, 23 February 2008 (UTC)


As long as we remember the past in an NPOV way like Molobo does, we will be OK. Space Cadet (talk) 18:34, 22 February 2008 (UTC)

I guess reality just seems to have a pro-Polish bias. That's really too bad. Ostap 19:57, 22 February 2008 (UTC)

Comments like this are unhelpful, if I may say so. If a subject is controversial, then it's wikipedia's job to present it as controversial and describe the viewpoint of all parties involved without judging which one is "more right". Anorak2 (talk) 02:49, 23 February 2008 (UTC)
OK, this is the first problematic Molobo's edit, presented by Anorak: as part of a postwar ethnic cleansing process also involving Poles, Czechs, Hungarians, and Russians. The policy had been agreed to by the Allies during the war as a way to stop further German agression.. Anorak, we are not creating Wikipedia for ourselves, we are doing this for English speakers from all over the world. Without this phrase: also involving Poles, Czechs, Hungarians, and Russians a reader, say in Indonesia, may come to the conclusion that Germans were the only nationality, which suffered from expulsions after WW2. It gives a broader perspective, it is helpful and honestly, I do not see any pro-Polish POV there. As for: the policy had been agreed to by the Allies during the war as a way to stop further German agression - wasn't this the purpose of expulsions? If I am wrong, correct me. More to come, if you wish Tymek (talk) 19:17, 27 February 2008 (UTC)
I am not aware of any postwar "ethnic cleansing" concerning Czech nation. This part of aforementioned statement seems very controversial. - Darwinek (talk) 19:39, 27 February 2008 (UTC)
A number of German citizens from Silesia declared Czech nationality after the war. They went to Czechoslovakia, not to Germany. Xx236 (talk) 07:26, 4 March 2008 (UTC)
WOW! I've been doing some WikiHomework, and Space Cadet, Ostap, Tymek, and Molobo are quite the tag team when it comes to trying to pushing a twisted, chauvinistic nationalism into Wikipedia articles. When anyone calls them on it, they all scream bloody murder, claim to be completely unbiased, revert every edit that takes out their blatant POV, and then give each other medals of merit for work on articles relating to their "beloved" country. I'd say ignore them as the trolls they are, but they make everyone waste time trying to keep Wikipedia even remotely credible. Ubudoda (talk) 03:40, 1 March 2008 (UTC)
Very interesting, now go and do your mathematics homework. Everybody has their POV, the problem is that some people will never admit it. Beloved country - I love Poland and I am not ashamed of it. BTW I never got a medal from these editors. And yes, we are a team, we eat all those who dislike Poland and Ukraine Tymek (talk) 19:50, 1 March 2008 (UTC)
Smacznego (bon appetit). Dr. Dan (talk) 12:37, 2 March 2008 (UTC)
Nobody here dislikes Poland (or Ukraine, what do they have to do with it anyway?). Removing a pro-X POV is not anti-X. Since you are a team, your mutual assertions of neutrality are worth nothing. Anorak2 (talk) 15:05, 2 March 2008 (UTC)
Sometimes pro-X POV happens to be NPOV. That's all I want on WIKI - truth, logic, common sense and neutrality. Space Cadet (talk) 15:13, 2 March 2008 (UTC)
Sometimes pro-X POV happens to be NPOV. No. NPOV is not pro or anti anything. It just reports what happened, without the slightest, teensiest, most ephemeral hint of approvement or rejection. This goes down to the most minute choice of vocabulary. Besides your all edits don't just transport a pro-Polish POV sometimes, but most of the time.
That's all I want on WIKI - truth, logic, common sense and neutrality. Several people have expressed doubts about this.
Besides Tymek said above And yes, we are a team, we eat all those who dislike Poland and Ukraine. This is essentally admitting that you as a group are prepared to remove facts that you perceive as "anti-Polish" (even though that isn't the case, but trying to convince you of this will be difficult). Anorak2 (talk) 15:21, 2 March 2008 (UTC)
Is sarcasm a foreign language to you? Is a little irony really too much for you to handle? Several people that you talk about might be POV pushers themselves. Space Cadet (talk) 15:56, 2 March 2008 (UTC)
Sarcasm is saying the opposite of what you really mean. It didn't look like that.
I oppose all POVs, including anti-Polish. The fact that the latter exists (it does) is no excuse for a pro-Polish one (it also exists). You don't achieve NPOV by mixing all kinds of biases, but by removing all, that is by addressing each bias individually. Anorak2 (talk) 17:33, 2 March 2008 (UTC)
Check this: [20] and this: [21], and this [22] and this [23] and many others and stop constantly accusing me of anti-German bias. Space Cadet (talk) 18:18, 2 March 2008 (UTC)
Let me also add, that Tymek's wording was very unfortunate. I myself, at least, have never eaten anyone disliking Poland or Ukraine, and I even bite only occasionally. But seriously, I believe that most of us here have a sound understanding of POV, and POV, just like nationalism, does not have any particular fatherland. Pundit|utter 18:22, 2 March 2008 (UTC)

I don't think it was unfortunate, it was just a humorous answer to unreasonable accusations. Space Cadet (talk) 18:28, 2 March 2008 (UTC)

I think it was quite an unfortunate and revealing remark, and it's regrettable that a greater number of people haven't made that clearer to Tymek. Sure it was humorous (which is why I humorously wished him a hearty smaczenego), but "many a truth has been said in jest". I also found it weird to see him trying to forge "an alliance" between Poland and Ukraine (shades of Miedzymorze?) giving the nature of many negative contributions from the Polish "team" concerning Ukraine. Especially regarding WWII. Really, no one dislikes Poland or Ukraine, and I hope no one dislikes all of the other countries involved in these disputes. So can we drop cabal, and just call it the team? And Space Cadet, all of your examples concerning German cities, are historically accurate (maybe Heinrich George is an exception, but even 1945-46 is probably a gray area regarding Szczecin in English). I'm beginning to feel that while truth and neutrality are possibly obtainable in the future, the logic and especially common sense parts may not be. Those abilities are usually not something that can be improved upon, if they are lacking to begin with. Good day. Dr. Dan (talk) 20:41, 2 March 2008 (UTC)
Oops! Heinrich George actually isn't an exception. Dr. Dan (talk) 20:49, 2 March 2008 (UTC)
Dr Dan, thanks for your hilarious reply (smacznego). Now, I am not trying to forge any alliances, User Ostap, mentioned by Ubudoda/Anorak/Anorak2, and branded by him a chauvinist, is Ukrainian. Simple as that. Tymek (talk) 02:32, 3 March 2008 (UTC)
I took exception to Ostap's assertion reality just seems to have a pro-Polish bias. Someone who says that displays a complete lack of understanding what NPOV means. If you all agree with that statement, which I think you do, we are at the core of the problem: Lack of understanding what NPOV is, thus inability to write NPOV and inability to understand the criticism. I found the same in other cases where I met groups of POV-writers, and explaining to them why they're doing wrong is nerve wrecking :-/
Besides please note I'm not identical with user Anorak. I chose the name Anorak2 because "Anorak" was already taken. Anorak2 (talk) 07:42, 3 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Armia Krajowa on GA review

AK is on GA review. Changes have been requested here. Please help improve the article; if there are no editors willing to invest their time, this important article will lose its GA status.--Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk 20:50, 22 February 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Voivodeships pronunciation

Is there anyone with a good accent and access to appropriate recording ware who would feel like recording the Polish names of the voivodeships (województwo świętokrzyskie and so on) for upload? I mean in 16 separate .ogg files, of course.--Kotniski (talk) 14:44, 3 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Image source problem with Image:Pawiak.jpg

Image Copyright problem

Thanks for uploading Image:Pawiak.jpg. I noticed that the file's description page currently doesn't specify who created the content, so the copyright status is unclear. If you did not create this file yourself, you will need to specify the owner of the copyright. If you obtained it from a website, then a link to the website from which it was taken, together with a restatement of that website's terms of use of its content, is usually sufficient information. However, if the copyright holder is different from the website's publisher, their copyright should also be acknowledged.

As well as adding the source, please add a proper copyright licensing tag if the file doesn't have one already. If you created/took the picture, audio, or video then the {{GFDL-self}} tag can be used to release it under the GFDL. If you believe the media meets the criteria at Wikipedia:Non-free content, use a tag such as {{non-free fair use in|article name}} or one of the other tags listed at Wikipedia:Image copyright tags#Fair use. See Wikipedia:Image copyright tags for the full list of copyright tags that you can use.

If you have uploaded other files, consider checking that you have specified their source and tagged them, too. You can find a list of files you have uploaded by following this link. Unsourced and untagged images may be deleted one week after they have been tagged, as described on criteria for speedy deletion. If the image is copyrighted under a non-free license (per Wikipedia:Fair use) then the image will be deleted 48 hours after 19:16, 3 March 2008 (UTC). If you have any questions please ask them at the Media copyright questions page. Thank you. 217.149.199.35 (talk) 19:16, 3 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Czeslaw Milosz-Jozef Pilsudski

The traveling circus has now chosen Czeslaw Milosz, who according to one gentleman, was a Lithuanian poet of Polish culture (what a nonsense, never heard of such a phrase). Tymek (talk) 20:48, 21 February 2008 (UTC)

And Jozef Pilsudski (see Talk). Dr. Dan (talk) 04:01, 23 February 2008 (UTC)
Encyclopedia Britannica identifies him as a "Polish-American" author, not Lithuanian. Ostap 20:59, 21 February 2008 (UTC)
EB refers to Pilsudski as a Polish-Lithuanian, but Polish Wikipedians object to that designation in his case.Dr. Dan (talk)


I have no interest in this topic Tymek, but please do not use this noticeboard in this way; doing this has in the past brought a lot of suspicion and ill-will into the community project. In addition to this, please remember WP:CANVASS and WP:MULTI. Deacon of Pndapetzim (Talk) 22:26, 21 February 2008 (UTC)
WP:CANVASSUnder certain conditions it is acceptable to notify other editors of ongoing discussions. Now we have editors who are changing the Czeslaw Milosz article in a way that does not improve the contents and furthermore, these changes are inflammatory. Therefore, I do not see anything wrong about the topic I started. Tymek (talk) 22:49, 21 February 2008 (UTC)
You are addressing this noticeboard in the spirit of partisanship, and referring to other people as "the traveling circus". Using this noticeboard as a rallying point for content-disputes has in the past brought a bad reputation, and creates nationality-based bad feeling on wikipedia. Remember wikipedia relies on a spirit of good-will and co-operation, and comments such as this and this do not help. I hope more experienced users on this noticeboard will back me up here! Regards, Deacon of Pndapetzim (Talk) 22:56, 21 February 2008 (UTC)
Tymek's tone might and should have been better. But the topic is relevant. Unless anybody believes this noticeboard is a nationalist canvassing ground, it stands to reason that any discussion advertised here will be brought to the attention of mostly neutral and reasonable editors, whose influence on it will be positive and moderating. Let's assume good faith and be nice to each other, shall we? --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk 23:43, 21 February 2008 (UTC)
I'm all for that Piotrus. There's probably no way to stop nationality based content-disputes involving a Polish topic being brought here, but in those circumstances we can secure the maximum of good faith by avoiding terms like traveling circus and Ukrainian chauvinists being used when users do bring them here. You, Piotrus, know more than anyone how much harm this can do (and for what good?), so I hope that you will give less experienced users such as Tymek and Nihil Novi guidance on the matter. Regards, Deacon of Pndapetzim (Talk) 23:53, 21 February 2008 (UTC)

Everybody loves a good traveling circus. They are usually quite entertaining. Ostap 00:00, 22 February 2008 (UTC)

OK, I have had my lesson. Next time, when I see somebody making inflammatory, baseless edits to such articles as Czeslaw Milosz, I will just follow the advice given here and I will stay as far from these edits as possible. I will not inform anybody about it, and thousands of possible readers will get the wrong info. What you see is what you get. And those who make such edits will obviously be praised for their efforts. Therefore, let us make Czeslaw Milosz a Lithuanian poet of Polish culture, and let us make Wikipedia the only source of such information in this beautiful world. Why not? Regards. Tymek (talk) 01:00, 22 February 2008 (UTC)
Tymek, regarding...what a nonsense (sic), have never heard of such a phrase... Let me assure you that the longer you live, the more you will both hear and learn many other things that you are not aware of. You must have missed Norman Davies', "Pilsudski considered himself a Lithuanian of Polish culture"...Dr. Dan (talk) 20:23, 22 February 2008 (UTC)
Wasn't it you, Dr Dan, who wrote elsewhere we don't have to stick to the topic although it helps? This topic is about Milosz, not Pilsudski. Anyway, thank you for enlightening me. Apart from some POV-pushers, nobody else doubts Milosz's having been Polish. Tymek (talk) 20:32, 22 February 2008 (UTC)
Sorry, but the topic is the phrase, ...Lithuanian of Polish culture... If this finally enlightens you, you are welcome. As for, nobody else doubts Milosz's having been Polish, maybe you need to read more of Milosz's own remarks on the subject. Dr. Dan (talk) 22:04, 22 February 2008 (UTC)
May I enlighten you this time. The topic is Czeslaw Milosz, in case you missed it. Anyway, I always thought that Wikipedia is all about reliable knowledge, not about POVish, pseudorevolutionary ideas of some users. Tymek (talk) 23:48, 22 February 2008 (UTC)
Well let's make it even more clearer then and focus like a laser. Is it about Milosz, Polish-Lithuanian, or Polish culture that you have a problem with? The phrase that Milosz or Pilsudski were Lithuanians of Polish culture, may not be to your liking, and whether or not you have knowledge of such a concept, is neither here nor there. Their statements regarding their heritage are as relevant as Jan Dzierzon's are about his. Or does that only apply in Dzierzon's case? Dr. Dan (talk) 00:28, 23 February 2008 (UTC)
Sorry to interupt, but do you have any other sources that say he was a Lithuanian of Polish culture? Ostap 00:58, 23 February 2008 (UTC)
As far as I recall, Miłosz very often described his hometown and the regions currently being located on the territory of Lithuania. I do not, however, remember him saying that he was Lithuanian, although he had good Lithuanian friends and maintained the links with the country. He also was writing exclusively in Polish and English, afaik. But Dr. Dan, you are more than welcome to bring the reliable resources and I'm sure they'll be appreciated, as they will widen our knowledge of this great poet, whose Lithuanian origins are commonly known. Pundit|utter 01:07, 23 February 2008 (UTC)
Neither of you gentlemen are interrupting as I am not sure if Tymek is ready at the moment to deal with the issue by himself. While I'm preparing some info for you, do you also care to get some additional info regarding Pilsudski's heritage too? If as I contend, both men, JS and CM, stated as much regarding their Lithuanian heritage, would that be a different argument than the Dzierzon case? Dr. Dan (talk) 01:23, 23 February 2008 (UTC)
Something to read temporarily [24] Dr. Dan (talk) 01:37, 23 February 2008 (UTC)
Dr Dan, I lost you here. Why should I deal with this issue? In what way? He was Polish, I do not have to prove anything, just bother yourself to open any encyclopedia. Tymek (talk) 04:16, 23 February 2008 (UTC)
Tymek, earlier I offered to discuss this with you at your own talk page. You declined to do so. Now we are at a portal that has a much wider audience. Although I am not offended by your "travelling circus" remark, your input here is compromised. Besides the issues are not directed for you to determine alone, in any case. No one wants you to prove anything. You are not required to "deal with this issue". In what way? In no way. Right now I'm "bothering" with the article on this encyclopedia. I hope this has become clearer to you now and you are no longer "lost". Dr. Dan (talk) 04:51, 23 February 2008 (UTC)
I fail to see in what way does the letter by Kazimierz Tarnowski have anything to do with Czeslaw Milosz's self perception or identity. He was a Polish citizen, a Polish author, and was raised in a Polish community living in the then Polish territory. His great sentiment and appreciation for the region, expressed e.g. in "Dolina Issy" does not have much to do with being Lithuanian. Similarly, in spite of the many sentiments and nostalgia that Günter Grass expresses towards Danzig, it is rather unusual to call him Polish (and same it goes e.g. with Max Born and many other notable people. I am far from going national about Miłosz, but common reason would call for bringing some solid sources (preferably statements by him) for this unusual claim (considering his citizenship, language and often expressed Polish nationality). Pundit|utter 03:05, 23 February 2008 (UTC)
It was something to read "temporarily" while I'm putting some other things together. And you can also scroll the link forwards and back to other interesting information. As for (Milosz)...he was a Polish citizen, etc., I think he later became a U.S. citizen, and spent most of his adult life in the United States. Anyway I hope Tymek enjoyed Pilsudski's remark at the Rudziński's home that was included in the link, ..."I, Sir, am not a Pole, because I am a Lithuanian!"...February, 1915. Dr. Dan (talk) 03:36, 23 February 2008 (UTC)
Pilsudski's other purported quote was actually somewhat dismaying, ..."(Poland) is the "hariba" of Europe." Perhaps he never spoke these words. In any case, Hiraba: Arabic for "waging war against society." Assassins. Fire setters. Well poisoners. Assassins, who kill not for military but political purposes... Hariba was once, in Islam, counted as among the gravest possible sins -- a war against God. It includes the killing of the resident and the wayfarer -- noncombatants, that is.Dr. Dan (talk) 15:10, 23 February 2008 (UTC)
Oh please, perhaps he meant that Poland is Haribo of Europe, after all everybody enjoys some sweet jelly bear now and then. Or perhaps he never said Haribo. Anyway, this discussion is getting ridiculous. From Milosz to Pilsudski to Dzierzon and finally to Arab assassins. What else do you have in stock to convince us that Milosz was not Polish? Tymek (talk) 16:30, 23 February 2008 (UTC)
The quote is from 1915, Tymek, the candy company was founded in 1920. Then again it has been argued by some that JP had a unique Nostradamistic ability to foresee the future. As for connecting the dots between Milosz, Pilsudski, Dzierzon and their origins to this discussion, just read the articles and their talk pages. Take your time. Dr. Dan (talk) 16:44, 23 February 2008 (UTC)

Britannica, which I think is sort of an authority, calls him (Milosz) a Polish-American. Ostap 03:45, 23 February 2008 (UTC)

Since this discussion is now including Pilsudski, can I remind you that when Britannica called Pilsudski a Polish-Lithuanian, it didn't have much "authority" in that case. Dr. Dan (talk) 04:01, 23 February 2008 (UTC)
That's because cherrypicking is not our policy. If 9 times out of 10 Britannica calls him Polish, and once, Polish-Lithuanian, claiming that "Britannica calls him Polish-Lithuanian" is not very honest, now, is it? The same thing applies to Miłosz. End of story.--Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk 05:04, 23 February 2008 (UTC)
Also, I don't think anybody objects to mentioning Miłosz's American passport, right? Pundit|utter 05:32, 23 February 2008 (UTC)
I wish that indeed there was less cherry picking going on, or that we could at least get some Kirschwasser out of it, while it's going on. Anyway, now that I've got your attention let's not have a rush to judgement and give this a little time to develop. No, not end of story. Honestly, honest? I can go to bed with a smile, or even a little laugh. Dr. Dan (talk) 05:51, 23 February 2008 (UTC) p.s. It seems only French passports are suspect around here see Chopin (talk).

Has anyone factored into the question of Józef Piłsudski's and Czesław Miłosz's "Lithuaniannness," sheer human perversity? When an individual wishes for some reason to set himself apart from his fellows—particularly if he is upset with them—he will sometimes advert to his (at times, merely supposed) foreign background. Among Germans, Friedrich Nietzsche famously did this, in claiming Polish origin: see "Friedrich Nietzsche" and "Radwan coat of arms." In Miłosz's case, the claim of Lithuanianness partly also involved a desire to emulate his compatriot and fellow-poet Adam Mickiewicz (to whom Miłosz devoted a course at Berkeley). Nihil novi (talk) 07:24, 23 February 2008 (UTC)

All things considered, it would be less difficult for Milosz to emulate Mickiewicz, than say Julian Tuwim. Dr. Dan (talk) 15:10, 23 February 2008 (UTC)

Miłosz isn't beloved among Radio Maryja followers. Some of them manifested against his burial in Skałka. He wrote Polish, not Lithuanian, and preferred Kraków, but there is also a number of his pro-Lithuanian statements. A comparison of the Polish Wikipedia article and the English one is helpful. Xx236 (talk) 07:44, 4 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Religion in the Soviet Union, needs NPOV to say the least

A Wikipedia Gem has been found by me. [25]

Among other things-number of Catholics increased by annexation of Western Ukraine in 1939 :) Was Bialystok Western Ukraine ? ;] Another example : In the 1920s, genuine cultural concessions were granted to the nationalities. Communist elites of various nationalities were permitted to flourish and to have considerable self-government.

Almost no information on discrimination of Catholics in Soviet Union.

Naturally there is no single word on Polish catholics in Soviet Union which I presume were among the largest number of Roman Catholics in SU after 1939. Before the war, in Soviet held Ukraine circa 500.000 Poles lived and there is a considerable number of sources recording discrimination against religious activity.

In short, the article needs serious NPOV. I hope people will help.

--Molobo (talk) 02:47, 5 March 2008 (UTC)

I suggest crossposting to that article's talk.--Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk 03:08, 5 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Category:Defunct universities and colleges in Poland

There is an opinion that such name were incorrect. University of Königsberg and University of Wrocław are labelled as Defunct universities and colleges in Germany. Either both categories are wrong or both are right. Xx236 (talk) 07:33, 10 March 2008 (UTC)

Lviv isn't in Poland. How can it go in that category? Go ahead and remove the Polish universities from the German category also. It makes no sense. Ostap 17:12, 10 March 2008 (UTC)
Indeed. There is a difference between Polish and in Poland. We should create an appropriate category: Category:Defunct Polish universities and colleges for that purpose (and for other countries in the same fashion).--Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk 19:55, 10 March 2008 (UTC)
  • Lwów was in Poland. A name of a category is frequently too short to describe all options, if you want to make it more precise, you can do it in the Category article. It make no sense is your POV.
  • Be bold and do the edition yourself. Wikipedia is aa common project, there are no Polish or Ukrainian articles, to be edited only by own nationalists.Xx236 (talk) 07:42, 11 March 2008 (UTC)

Lemberg was also in Austria. And for a time, Lvov was in Russia. So what? That it makes no sense is not a POV. The name of the category is Defunct universities and colleges in Poland . Like it or not, Lviv is NOT in Poland, therefore it makes as much sense to be in this category as "Defunct universities and colleges in New Zealand" another country Lviv is NOT in. I don't know what you mean about the "be bold" stuff. Ostap 18:08, 11 March 2008 (UTC) You want me to do something: Go ahead and remove the Polish universities from the German category also. It's a standard answer in such situations. Xx236 (talk) 12:29, 12 March 2008 (UTC)

  • And Warsaw was in Russia and Germany; that doesn't make Warsaw University a former Russian or German one. The 'in country' categories apply to 'present' locations, not some past ones. Lwów University was Polish once but it is certainly no longer in Poland (or Polish).--Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk 18:27, 11 March 2008 (UTC)
  • Where is it defined that in means present? A number of authors had another opinion.
  • Warsaw University was more or less Russian during many years and istn't one any more, so yes, former, not recent.

Xx236 (talk) 12:41, 12 March 2008 (UTC) Xx236 (talk) 12:26, 12 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Krotoszyn

The dominant trade is in grain and seeds. I have visited the town but no grain found. Xx236 (talk) 12:24, 11 March 2008 (UTC)

Famine?? Not the harvest season ?? 85.214.22.8 (talk) 12:51, 11 March 2008 (UTC)
I would rather call it ignorance, when 1910-1911 text is used to describe 21st century reality.Xx236 (talk) 16:29, 11 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Black Madonna of Częstochowa

I nominated the image to the right at Wikipedia:Featured picture candidates . Bewareofdog 19:44, 13 March 2008 (UTC)

Thank you for notifying us.--Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk 20:22, 13 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Did SPD demand 1914 borders post-WW2 ?

I just found this poster and I wondered if SPD demanded 1914 post-war ? I did heard that organisations of transfered Germans did make such claims but from the looks of this SPD did also ? [26] --Molobo (talk) 21:29, 15 March 2008 (UTC)

That is very unlikely. Where did you get this poster? Ubudoda (talk) 02:15, 20 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Valaška

Article suggest that Valaška (pl:Ciupaga) belongs to Slovak culture only, please correct that. 13:48, 19 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Composition of the Polish Secret State

Other than this fascinating article needs expansion, I've noted some errors and confusing items on the accompanying template at Talk:Polish_Secret_State#Not_totally_inclusive. Comments appreciated (I suggest commenting at the linked article's talk page, not here.)! --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk 21:53, 20 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Górki

Could someone please reference the Górki set index article? It is currently a dump of Polish place names, and it was attempted to be overridden with a redirect to Gorki without preserving much from the current list. I'd hate to lose a what is a potentially useful list just because it is in a sorry state. Thanks.—Ëzhiki (Igels Hérissonovich Ïzhakoff-Amursky) • (yo?); 15:42, 24 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Stefan Banach

is again being retroactively granted variously Ukrainian, or dual Polish and Ukrainian, nationality. Nihil novi (talk) 07:27, 25 March 2008 (UTC)

Kac completed his Ph.D. in mathematics at Ivan Franko Lviv National Ukrainian University - I love it.Xx236 (talk) 11:11, 26 March 2008 (UTC)
As we see, some people are clearly jealous of Banach. This problem comes and goes in intervals. Tymek (talk) 18:18, 26 March 2008 (UTC)
Alex reverted it to an acceptable version. Dealing with anon vandals is simple: revert. End of story.--Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk 18:19, 26 March 2008 (UTC)
Anon lost all credibility when he claimed that Banach was of this "Ukrainian religion". Ostap 21:43, 26 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Special:Contributions/Filsdegilbert

If anyone feels in the mood for an edit war or two (or possibly trying to reason politely with this guy), check out his recent contributions, pushing what he regards as "established English names" for Polish cities.--Kotniski (talk) 21:17, 27 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] West Slavic WikiProject

I know in many aspects the different editors from West Slavic nations have not seen eye to eye, and the community has suffered due to childish naming disputes that usually deteriorate into edit wars. That's why, in the interest of common West Slavic participation on Wikipedia I have proposed a West Slavic WikiProject, that would aim and try to bridge the gaps between us and strive for fair representation of West Slavic interests, be they Polish, Czech, Slovak or Sorbian on the English Wikipedia, as well as effective multilateral debates on a multitude of contentious articles. So, just have a look and voice your support if you want. +Hexagon1 (t) 23:52, 29 March 2008 (UTC)

Great idea, you have my support on it. Tymek (talk) 03:25, 4 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Naming debate at Sněžka-Śnieżka

Since it falls within the purview of this WikiProject, I thought I should advise of a new debate to move the article about Sněžka-Śnieżka. As participants in the associated project with the great interest and knowledge in the specific political and cultural ramifications of this Czech/Polish mountain debate, your views would be especially welcome. CzechOut ☎ | ✍ 05:27, 31 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] OTRS

OTRS is in need of Polish-speaking volunteers, specifically for handling the backlog of image permissions tickets. Volunteers must be at least 16 years old (and be willing to provide proof of identity), courteous, skilled at resolving disputes, friendly even in the face of hostility, sensitive to the needs of those outside Wikipedia, and have exemplary discretion. Interested parties should apply at m:OTRS/volunteering. Thanks. howcheng {chat} 17:42, 7 April 2008 (UTC)

A worthy cause. If I wasn't doing a hundred other things, I'd love to help; since I am I can only endorse Howcheng request - please, volunteers, step forward! --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk 18:34, 7 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Move of Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth

I should like to inform the honourable editors of the Poland-related notice board that I am seriously considering moving Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth, a featured article, in order to replace the hyphen in this state's name with an en dash. If you wish to comment, please do so in the relevant thread here. I have also notified the Baltic States notice board. Waltham, The Duke of 23:28, 7 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Median Europe

A newly created article on Median Europe is proposed for deletion - comments appreciated. Pundit|utter 14:51, 8 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Zajazd = foray?

Should foray be moved to zajazd? Please comment at Talk:Foray.--Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk 16:48, 9 April 2008 (UTC)


[edit] Alojzy Ehrlich

Alojzy Ehrlich, legendary Polish-Jewish table tennis player, more info about this personality is welcome. Tymek (talk) 18:29, 9 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Jerzy Popiełuszko

his sermons, interwove spiritual exhortations with political messages - I don't like the phrase, Popiełuszko wasn't a politician. I have also removed the CIA reference from the text, because Popiełuszko wasn't a CIA tool.Xx236 (talk) 12:12, 10 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Polish section of Radio Free Europe should be written

The current RFE/RL article is very general.Xx236 (talk) 14:03, 10 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Congress Poland

Hi,

I just did a re-write of Congress Poland, could someone have a proof-read? I added no references or text, just took what was there and improved the English, and given my lack of knowledge of Polish history it's possible I made errors in chronology or cast. Thanks, WLU (talk) 14:47, 10 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] George Duke of Kent a king of Poland ?

Seems very marginal idea or a hoax. Anyway if somebody wants to comment : It was once proposed that the Duke be made King of Poland, in a move to restore the Polish monarchy much as the Greek monarchy had been restored using imported Royals. In August 1937, the Duke and his wife visited Poland and were well-received. However, due to the invasion of Poland in World War II, the plan was called off.

Supposedly from Picknett, Prince, Prior & Brydon, pp. 142–143. --Molobo (talk) 10:58, 12 April 2008 (UTC)

What a curiosity, I am myself very interested in the 1930s, so many interesting and so many unusual things were happening back then in our country. Tymek (talk) 14:05, 12 April 2008 (UTC)
It was probably a crazy idea by the monarchists. I couldn't find anything regarding it during a quick look on Google Print, I suggest tagging as dubious and eventually removing it from mainspace articles per WP:V.--Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk 14:41, 12 April 2008 (UTC)
Not in 1939 but during Second World War, not king od Poland but monarchic Central European Federation. Proposed by Sikorski and Herman Lieberman, not monarchists, rejected by Benes. The sources I found though aren't very reliable and I will continue to look for more serious ones.--Molobo (talk) 15:30, 12 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Polish diacritics and sorting

There is an interesting post by Gene here. Please comment on whether you think that in English language, Wańkowicz should come before or after (for excample) Lewis W. Wannamaker. --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk 17:13, 10 April 2008 (UTC)--Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk 17:13, 10 April 2008 (UTC)

I think Wańkowicz comes before Wannamaker in English alphabetical order (i.e. different from Polish). We ignore diacritics when ordering.--Kotniski (talk) 18:29, 10 April 2008 (UTC)
Interesting... I myself would sort him after (regular letters precede those with tittles) but this is just my personal opinion and I am not really knowledgeable about the subject.Pundit|utter 19:42, 17 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Images of Polish soldiers in uniform

A third part of this set (Image:Mundurwl6.jpg, Image:Oficer_Marynarka.jpg) for Polish airman) was deleted long time ago and cannot be restored, perhaps somebody could find it and reupload it? --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk 23:38, 15 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Eastern Europe

For those with a geographic bent: "Template:Age of Enlightenment" now places Poland in Eastern rather than Central Europe (apparently in deference to Cold Warriors' bipolar preferences). See also "Template talk:Age of Enlightenment." Germany ("Holy Roman Empire") is in Central Europe, according to this template, Poland is in Eastern. Nihil novi (talk) 02:34, 20 April 2008 (UTC)

It's really insane overkill to try to build this matter up into a nationalistic melodrama. It's just a clumsy geographical division in a template with clumsier geographical/cultural divisions than this. I put it in there simply because of the logic of the existing divisions, and 1) it's more common in English to describe as "in Eastern Europe" than in "Central Europe" and 2) Eastern Europe on the template had a smaller population. Deacon of Pndapetzim (Talk) 03:23, 20 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Naming

OK, this is childlish, but at the same time annoying. User Lokyz keeps deleting Polish names of such places as Varena and Lentvaris, yet at the same time he insists on keeping a Lithuanian name of Sejny. Double standards, isn't it? My opinion is simple - keep Lithuanian names of Augustow, Sejny or Suwalki (even Bialystok), but also keep Polish names of places as Varena. I am awaiting your opinion. Tymek (talk) 16:41, 20 April 2008 (UTC)

Both versions should be used with the due respect to respective minorities. Both countries are in the European Union, for Christ sake and both signed European Charter of Minority and Regional Languages. - Darwinek (talk) 17:00, 20 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] New naming convention

A new naming convention for places in Slovakia is being discussed at User_talk:Elonka/Hungarian-Slovakian_experiment#Proposed_naming_convention. Your input will be greatly appreciated. Since these new rules might be later regarded as a precedent by non-involved editors (remember the Danzig/Gdansk case?), I think you will find this ongoing discussion and poll interesting. Tankred (talk) 03:03, 21 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Articles on GA review need help

Please see: Battle of Kostiuchnówka and also relevant to Poland: Forced labor in Germany during World War II and Minority Treaties. They were all submitted to WP:GA recently and reviewers have posted comments on talk. Help addressing the comments/issues pointed out is much needed! --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk 03:19, 21 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Language

Is such language allowed in this Wikipedia? It's about November Uprising and January Uprising in Lithuania: Oh, and don't forget the five pub fights, an insult about the Tzar's favourite horse, and the shooting of a Russian Partridge in a Lithuanian Pear Tree! Xx236 (talk) 15:24, 17 April 2008 (UTC)

Who said it? Space Cadet (talk) 15:29, 17 April 2008 (UTC)

I quote this not as a personal, but ideological problem. I believe that such language is unacceptable and the nationality/name of the author doesn't change anything. Xx236 (talk) 13:17, 21 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] List of Poles

Hello. I think we should split List of Poles into many lists. The list is too big. I would like to know what other users think. Masterpiece2000 (talk) 03:01, 21 April 2008 (UTC)

Personally I was always in favor of deleting this and similar lists, but I think I am in minority on that. In any case, this and similar articles were and are a mess - and if you think splitting will help, go ahead.--Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk 03:20, 21 April 2008 (UTC)

Believe it or not, there are countries (including "allies" of Poland) where many people disparage Poles and Poland. It helps to have a list of prominent Poles to which the ignorant can be directed, where they will discover that Poland actually has made some contributions to world science and culture. As Poeticbent points out, there is a List of Czechs, List of French people, List of Greeks, List of Hungarians, List of Italians, etc. Why should there not be a central List of Poles? The List of Poles, in fact, is superior to the ones named above, because it is illustrated.

Certainly, set up specific individual lists as well, for those seeking more focused or more complete information. But why delete an article that is useful and that is not yet truly unwieldy? Nihil novi (talk) 04:00, 21 April 2008 (UTC)

Hi Nihil! Good to hear from you! I don't think List of Poles should be deleted. I think we need specific individual lists. Masterpiece2000 (talk) 04:54, 21 April 2008 (UTC)
List of prominent Poles would be a better name. List of Poles suggest everybody. Further, I once suggested that such list should be limited only to people who can be referenced to a publication like encyclopedia. Two lists to mention: User:Piotrus/List of Poles and User:Visor/Lists of articles/Biographies from Internetowa encyklopedia PWN, plus the lists of Poles from WIEM and Interia Encyklopedia should be used to determine who should be on that list - and who shouldn't. --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk 18:14, 21 April 2008 (UTC)
Seems to me that "List of Poles" already is a list of prominent Poles. All except three have articles on Wikipedia. Any non-prominent person (let's say, an individual without a Wikipedia article) who slips in can easily be deleted. Nihil novi (talk) 04:03, 22 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Huta Pieniacka massacre

I have expanded the Huta Pieniacka massacre article, input of all contributors is welcomed. Tymek (talk) 17:59, 21 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Stefan Banach again

Stefan Banach is now described by an anonymous editor, in the article lead, as "an eminent European Ukrainian mathematician... a founder... of the Lwów School of Mathematics at Ivan Franko Lviv National Ukrainian University..." Help! Nihil novi (talk) 07:25, 23 April 2008 (UTC)

Banach was Polish. He was born in Kraków. We can ignore the claim of that IP. Masterpiece2000 (talk) 10:08, 23 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Lithuanians won Vilnius, 60%

http://www.rp.pl/artykul/124647.html

When exatly was Vilnius ethnically Lithuanian, if 60% is the highest number in history?Xx236 (talk) 14:46, 23 April 2008 (UTC)

Certainly a few hundred years ago, before the polonization of Grand Duchy. PS. This article should probably be linked from Polish minority in Lithuania and Polish-Lithuanian relations.--Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk 18:03, 23 April 2008 (UTC)

Obviously not, the city used to be Lithuanian-Ruthenian.Xx236 (talk) 06:36, 24 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Polish folk wedding

Unknown artist (Poland). Village wedding, circa early 19th century.
Unknown artist (Poland). Village wedding, circa early 19th century.

I was illustrating a different article and found this image. Since Polish Wedding is an article about a movie and I could not decide for which of Polish culture and Polish folk related articles is best to use it, I am bringing it here. Perhaps someone will start an article about Polish wedding traditions one day. Happy edits, --Irpen 20:56, 26 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Category:WikiProject Poland participants

Hello. I have created Category:WikiProject Poland participants. Feel free to add this category on your user page. Masterpiece2000 (talk) 10:00, 27 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Stefan Banach again again

Can someone take over at Stefan Banach? I've already passed my daily quota of reverts. (I've also asked for a block or semi-protection at AN/I and requests for protection.)--Kotniski (talk) 11:24, 27 April 2008 (UTC)

Vandal blocked. Please report any possible block evasions or comebacks. - Darwinek (talk) 11:37, 27 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Please give your opinion about Proposal II which will define Central Europe

Give your support or opposition at the Central Europe talk page, since we are looking for a single definition for it.

This issue is related to Poland since it determines where it is located in Europe. ⇨ EconomistBR ⇦ Talk 17:18, 23 April 2008 (UTC)

Thank you all that participated and gave their opinion on Proposal II.

Proposal II was approved, 13 editors supported it and 5 editors opposed it. Proposal II is now in effect and it redefined Central Europe. ⇨ EconomistBR ⇦ Talk 23:46, 29 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Central Europe: Proposal II

It appears that Proposal II for the definition of "Central Europe" has been adopted. If so, how would this best be implemented on sites such as "Template:Age of Enlightenment," where Poland still appears in the section on "Eastern Europe"? Nihil novi (talk) 17:08, 29 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Talk:List of Polish resistance topics

Minor issue: please comment on which layout is better (and help expand the list).--Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk 19:19, 30 April 2008 (UTC)


[edit] Our Lady of Czestochowa in Voodoo

I added the following subsection to the article on The Black Madonna of Czestochowa. As unbelievable as it may seem its all true. Might be cool for "Did you know", right?

In Vodou, it is believed that a common depiction of Erzulie has its roots in copies of the icon of the Black Madonna of Częstochowa, brought to Haiti by Polish soldiers fighting on both sides of the Haitian Revolution from 1802 onwards.[1] In her Petro nation aspect as Erzulie Dantor she is often depicted as a scarred and buxom woman, holding a child protectively in one hand and a knife in the other. She is a warrior and particularly a fierce protector of women and children. In Santeria, this image is referred to as Santa Barbara Africana. --Orestek (talk) 17:56, 1 May 2008 (UTC)

It is interesting, alas WP:DYK features only newly created or significantly expanded articles. That said, it is high time to update dyks for Portal:Poland.--Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk 17:32, 5 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Banach yet again

For anyone who is interested, the same anonymous contributor is again giving his interpretation of Stefan Banach's life and work. Nihil novi (talk) 08:42, 5 May 2008 (UTC)

Semi-protection? --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk 17:33, 5 May 2008 (UTC)
Yes, ASAP. Either that or block the IP again for a longer time. It might not be technically vandalism, since he seems to genuinely believe what he's saying, but it's pointless us wasting our time battling with this guy every week or so. Kotniski (talk) 17:58, 5 May 2008 (UTC)
Can you fill the request at Wikipedia:Requests for page protection? I am afraid if I were to semi the article, some may accuse me of abusing the admin tools (as I am Polish and I'd be protecting the Polish POV version...).--Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk 18:12, 5 May 2008 (UTC)

I have removed Translations paragraph because it contained only Ukrainian ones. Either many languaguages or none.Xx236 (talk) 09:19, 5 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] komendant.cal.pl - spam?

More opinions needed: see MediaWiki_talk:Spam-whitelist/Archives/2008/04#komendant.cal.pl. If you agree with me that the case should be reopened, please start a new reqiest at MediaWiki_talk:Spam-whitelist.--Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk 17:31, 5 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Polish Speakers?

Hi, I'm trying to compile a list of notable references to support a Wikipedia article concerning a video editor. Two I have are in Polish - if there are any Polish speakers that could help by reading the articles this would be appreciated. The articles are here: Clesh#References If you believe from each article the video editor is notable please leave some form of brief comment about each article in the form of a summary above the document in link in the references section (as has been done with the other documents in there). Many thanks, mk (talk) 21:22, 5 May 2008 (UTC)

I've just removed these two references, since they seem barely relevant in fact.--Kotniski (talk) 12:50, 6 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Is blackmail allowed here?

An example: If you wish to play more mind games with this outrageous ... bias, go for it, and you will get a tsunami of references to ...

For me such stament is a blackmail - if you write about it, we (?) will write about other subjects, you won't like. Or maybe a conspiracy - let's not discuss our subjects. Bot are rather organized crime activities than editing.Xx236 (talk) 07:58, 6 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Bili Sarny detention centre

I've proposed Bili Sarny detention centre for deletion at Afd here. At present this seems to be an invention of a Ukrainian nationalist website, though if anyone has any real information about the existence or non-existence of the place it would be welcome.--Kotniski (talk) 09:10, 6 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Gross - Fear - Perełka

From the new article on Fear - Anti-Semitism in Poland after Auschwitz: "The ongoing difficulty many Poles continue to have in confronting the facts of Polish wartime and post war violence against Polish Jews is witnessed daily in the attacks on wikipedia pages discussing the pogroms and murders of Jews carried out by Poles.". Lovely, isn't it? The book is notable, but the article needs some major rewriting to move away from rant style :> --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk 22:17, 6 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] How to stop jokes?

I believe that this Wikipedia isn't a forum for posting jokes. How to stop such a thread and remove unrelated comments? Xx236 (talk) 09:05, 5 May 2008 (UTC)

See WP:TALK for the relevant guideline; can you be more specific and link the joke thread that concerns you? --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk 17:22, 5 May 2008 (UTC)

Talk:Expulsion of Germans after World War II Xx236 (talk) 07:32, 6 May 2008 (UTC) I haven't succeeded.Xx236 (talk) 06:59, 8 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Diacritics

A couple of years ago I spent hours adding in diacritics to links of Polish cities. Now I see the lack of accents problem is back in a big way. May I please, please remind people (and I really shouldn't be the one doing this): it's Toruń not Torun, Poznań not Poznan, Wrocław not Wroclaw, Łódź not Lodz, and on and on. Thank you. Biruitorul (talk) 14:28, 7 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Mayors of Gdańsk/Danzig

Should List of mayors of Gdańsk be split off from List of mayors of Danzig, as was recently done? --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk 18:49, 7 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Category:Polish Catholics

This category needs to be populated, I guess... --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk 04:20, 8 May 2008 (UTC)

Or perhaps deleted, since it would include a large majority of Polish people and not be very informative.--Kotniski (talk) 09:47, 8 May 2008 (UTC)
I am also in favour of deletion. Such categories make sense for countries like the Czech Republic where most of people are Atheist, not for country which is a symbol of ardent Roman Catholicism. - Darwinek (talk) 09:53, 8 May 2008 (UTC)
Well, I disagree with deletion; it is only logical it should exist. It makes sense to categorize people by religion just as it makes sense to categorize them by ethnicity or profession. Category:Polish people by religion is useful - even if over 90% of Poles will fall into the Category:Polish Catholics. --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk 17:15, 8 May 2008 (UTC)
Can't see that the usefulness would be enough to justify the work involved, i.e. going round virtually every Polish person with an article, finding evidence that they are/were Catholic, and ending up with a category which looks not much different from a category of all Polish people.--Kotniski (talk) 17:50, 8 May 2008 (UTC)
I agree. Nihil novi (talk) 20:56, 11 May 2008 (UTC)
It seems like the consensus here leans towards elimination of this category. CFD? - Darwinek (talk) 21:22, 11 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Important voting

[27] Should events taken place in Toruń be known by the Germanised name version of the city ?

Your choice.--Molobo (talk) 14:37, 11 May 2008 (UTC)

Wikipedia does not "choose" nor "vote" on facts. Wikipedia reflects scholarly sources. And these are by far in favour of Thorn in history use. -- Matthead  Discuß   15:31, 11 May 2008 (UTC)

So far none have been presented.--Molobo (talk) 15:32, 11 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Karkonosze naming issue

See my proposal [28] --Molobo (talk) 14:59, 11 May 2008 (UTC)

Proposal for Giant Mountains. -- Matthead  Discuß   15:32, 11 May 2008 (UTC)
Can't be serious, too generic.--Molobo (talk) 21:23, 11 May 2008 (UTC)
Actually, I am serious, Molobo, and so is the name Giant Mountains, which happens to be English. And you better sign, especially when you make such remarks. -- Matthead  Discuß   20:54, 11 May 2008 (UTC)
Why use a German or English name for a mountain range that is shared exclusively by Poland and the Czech Republic? Sounds like linguistic imperialism. Nihil novi (talk) 21:18, 11 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Proposal to rename Karkonosze into translation of German term Risenberge-Giant Mountains

User Matthead proposed to delete name Karkonosze and replace it with translation of German term Risenberge-Giant Mountains. Vote is under way. You are free to place your opinion: [29] --Molobo (talk) 23:58, 11 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Victims of expulsion

Since user Matthead insists on calling Fryderyk Scherfke and Ernest Wilimowski victims of explusion, I am awaiting opinions of editors on this subject - see here [30]. Both Wilimowski and Scherfke were drafted into the Wehrmacht and ended up in western Germany in 1945. Nobody expelled them from Katowice and Poznan. Tymek (talk) 19:18, 12 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Pomeranian Dukes and Names

Talk:Dukes of Pomerania Radomil talk 17:18, 13 May 2008 (UTC)

Once again I'm asking for Your participation in this discussion Radomil talk 15:40, 15 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Vitally important question

Why do Poles drive around in the daytime with their headlights on? Intelligent Mr Toad (talk) 08:37, 15 May 2008 (UTC) (currently in Gdansk)

Not only Poles, a number of nations in the EU. Daytime running lamp needs help. Xx236 (talk) 09:20, 15 May 2008 (UTC)

It's the law.--Kotniski (talk) 11:44, 15 May 2008 (UTC)

Really? How amazing. I've been to ten other European countries and I've never seen it before. What purpose does it serve, other than dazzling oncoming drivers? In Australia you'd probably be stopped by the police and told to turn them off. Intelligent Mr Toad (talk) 16:12, 15 May 2008 (UTC)

I suppose they think it prevents accidents by making vehicles more visible. If you get used to having the lights on all the time, you won't forget to switch them on when it gets foggy or semi-dark, maybe. And of course the fines are a useful source of revenue;)--Kotniski (talk) 16:36, 15 May 2008 (UTC)

In CA and NY it's the law. Space Cadet (talk) 17:37, 15 May 2008 (UTC)

It very much increases the visibility of cars on the road. Otherwise, they tend to blend into the background. Many modern cars on both sides of the Atlantic are now produced with daylights always on (even in the US, where it is not obligatory, and also where headlights are straight, while in Europe they are slightly directed to the right edge of the road, not to dazzle the other drivers). I'm in CA now and I don't think it is obligatory :> but many drivers do have headlights on, it is just for safety Pundit|utter 17:38, 15 May 2008 (UTC)

Speaking as a Gdansk pedestrian, I can tell you it does no such thing. It just adds to the general visual overload of city traffic. (Plus of course they are all driving on the wrong side of the road, hence I have been nearly run over three times today.) Intelligent Mr Toad (talk) 17:42, 15 May 2008 (UTC)

Aussies drive on the wrong side of the road, you are supposed to conform to our system of driving. ;) - Darwinek (talk) 18:40, 15 May 2008 (UTC)
Let's say Poles drive on the right side of the road, and Brits and Aussies drive on the correct side.--Kotniski (talk) 08:34, 16 May 2008 (UTC)
Oh oh, I smell a conflict here. - Darwinek (talk) 10:03, 16 May 2008 (UTC)

OK, we won't pursue this topic :)

On a more important question: I have now been to Szczecin and Gdansk, walking around with old German street maps looking for interesting old buildings (my hobby). Later I will go to Wroclaw as well. It seems to me that Gdansk has done a much more thorough job of removing all relics of German Danzig than Szczecin has done of removing all relics of German Stettin. Is this correct? Is this because Stettin was a German city longer than Danzig was? It is because Poles feel more patriotic about Gdansk than about Szczecin? (Nevertheless I did find a few German inscriptions in Gdansk, such as on the old Polizei Praesidium building.) Also, please see the question about Gdansk I have asked at Talk:Gdansk, which no-one has tried to answer yet. Djenkuye. Intelligent Mr Toad (talk) 14:52, 16 May 2008 (UTC)

Changing the subject, if you don't mind, are you making pictures of all the relics, old buildings and stuff? It's my hobby too. Space Cadet (talk) 15:01, 16 May 2008 (UTC)

Yes indeed. I am going to do a "Germany's lost cities" section of my website when I get home. Yesterday I went to KZ Stutthof. Now I am sitting in Olsztyn for two hours (thanks to Polish railways) on my way to see the Wolf's Lair. Intelligent Mr Toad (talk) 15:08, 16 May 2008 (UTC)

Answering your question. Gdańsk was culturally and politically far more important city than Szczecin, so basically there was more landmarks there. Gdańsk is also internationally more known, local authorities felt that and took needed steps to renovate landmarks to attract more tourists. However, this trend seems to be appearing slowly in other historic cities in Poland. Tourism is a good source of money, ya know. - Darwinek (talk) 16:02, 16 May 2008 (UTC)

Well, yes, but the decision to rebuild the Gdansk Old Town as it was before 1772 rather than as it was in 1939 was taken immediately after the war, long before tourism was a consideration. This was a political decision, to erase 160 years of German history from the city, or at least from its historic heart. Stettin was a much more German city than Danzig, so its German heritage was harder to erase. Intelligent Mr Toad (talk) 16:10, 16 May 2008 (UTC)

Gdansk is different from Wroclaw and Szczecin since it was part of Poland for quite a long time and therefore plays a much larger role in the Polish consciousness. Gdansk looked familiar, Prussian Stettin and Prussian/Austrian/Bohemian Breslau looked much more foreign. I think this process of Polonization was different in every town. There were a few publications in recent years which started to research this topic. In Germany it was "Wiedergewonnene Geschichte. Zur Aneignung von Vergangenheit in den Zwischenräumen Mitteleuropas" (Recovered history. Adoption of the past in the interstices of Middle Europe, ISBN 3-447-05297-X) or, especially about Wroclaw, "Die fremde Stadt" (The foreign town, ISBN 3-88680-795-9). If you can read German there is also quite a good summary about what's happened in Wroclaw between 1945 and 1990 (Polish author btw.):
http://www.dpg-brandenburg.de/nr17/breslau.htm
If you come to Wroclaw you will see some German relics. After 1990 things have definitively turned for the better. For instance, on some of the Gründerzeit shopping centers you will see newly restored German names, something which probably is only possible in Poland with it's great tradition in reconstruction.
PS: if you are in the area: the German town of Görlitz, which was once part of Prussian Silesia, is one of the most beautiful cities in Germany and just 2:30h away. Karasek (talk) 14:27, 17 May 2008 (UTC)
With regards to Wrocław, I'd recommend Davies' Microcosm: Portrait of a Central European City.--Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk 11:50, 18 May 2008 (UTC)

Thanks for those comments, which confirm what I thought about the special place of Gdansk as compared to other cities which became Polish in 1945. I will be in Wroclaw in about two weeks. Thanks to the Polish railways, I had an unexpected night in Olsztyn / Allenstein and found a number of obviously German-built buildings there. It is obvious that this part of Poland (formerly East Prussia) is doing well out of German tourism and there are German signs all over the place, such as on cemeteries where Germans go to look for family graves. Yesterday I was at Ketrzyn / Rastenburg and was very impressed by the presentation of the Wolfsschanze site. It was well worth standing for five hours in a packed and very late train! Intelligent Mr Toad (talk) 11:30, 18 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] New template

I have created {{Polish diaspora}} template. Please add any further or new articles to the list. - Darwinek (talk) 10:29, 18 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Proposal to move Karkonosze (Krkonoše) Mountains

For those who may have missed it, voting continues on User Meathead's proposal to move the article on the "Karkonosze" Mountains to the more generic title, "Great Mountains," and on User Molobo's counter-proposal to move "Karkonosze" to "Karkonosze/Krkonoše." You may vote at [31]. Nihil novi (talk) 04:38, 19 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Pharaoh plot-summary request

Otolemur crassicaudatus has requested that a plot summary be added to the article on Pharaoh (the film). I have not seen the entire movie and therefore do not feel competent to do it. Any takers? Nihil novi (talk) 05:06, 19 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Hussar

Also the template "WikiProject Poland" could be added by a member. Squash Racket (talk) 04:41, 20 May 2008 (UTC)

Please don't hesitate and add this template where you feel it is appropriate.--Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk 13:28, 20 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Map of communist-era Warsaw

Can anyone direct me to an online map of central Warsaw with the street names as they were during the communist era? (I visited the Palace of Culture today. It is not nearly as ugly as I had expected. The statues of the handsome proletarians are rather cute :) ) Intelligent Mr Toad (talk) 16:42, 20 May 2008 (UTC)

pl:Zmiany nazw ulic i placów w Warszawie, tables inform about changes, if you prefer maps, see Trasbus link.Xx236 (talk) 10:59, 21 May 2008 (UTC)

Thanks for that. So Warsaw never had Ul Marksa, Lenina, Stalina, Oktobera Revolutsia, Rosa Luksemburga, Boleslava Bieruta etc etc? That's very surprising. Intelligent Mr Toad (talk) 16:46, 21 May 2008 (UTC)

pl:Zmiany_nazw_ulic_i_placów_w_Warszawie#Wola. Al. Rewolucji Październikowej = October Revolution Avenue. Jacek Kendysz 18:32, 21 May 2008 (UTC)

Plac Defilad was to be allegedly Plac Stalina, but Stalin died.Xx236 (talk) 06:55, 23 May 2008 (UTC)

I'm surprised there has never been a Rosa Luxemburg street in Warsaw. There are several in Germany, but she was born in Poland after all. On the other hand she was Jewish... Intelligent Mr Toad (talk) 10:24, 23 May 2008 (UTC)

There was a big RL Factory there. Soviet opinion about RL was changing, RL not always being orthodox. She acted in Germany, so she wasn't a Polish revolutionary. Xx236 (talk) 10:55, 23 May 2008 (UTC)

According to this there used to be a Róży Luksemburg street in the Rembertów district of Warsaw.--Kotniski (talk) 11:02, 23 May 2008 (UTC)
Oh and there were (are) many others all over Poland.--Kotniski (talk) 11:04, 23 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Next question

Today I am in Poznan. Everywhere people are flying the red-and-white Polish colours, the yellow-and-white, which I assume is the Papal flag, and the pale-blue-and-white. What is this? Intelligent Mr Toad (talk) 18:42, 24 May 2008 (UTC)

Probably the city colours, see [32]. - Darwinek (talk) 19:02, 24 May 2008 (UTC)

Yes I have seen that flag, but the one people are flying from their apartments is a plain pale-blue-and-white bi-colour, and not that shade of blue. Intelligent Mr Toad (talk) 19:21, 24 May 2008 (UTC)

Thosa are not city colours. You're just visiting Poznań during Corpus Christi feast (or in its octave). Red&white are Polish flags, yellow&white are papal flag and white&blue are marian flags Radomil talk 19:35, 24 May 2008 (UTC) P.S. Flag of Poznań is used very rare. It looks like that . You can also occasionaly see older version (coat of arms are encircled by gold line, and sheat is blue, not white) Radomil talk 19:38, 24 May 2008 (UTC)
Dziękuję, Radomil. Intelligent Mr Toad (talk) 19:40, 24 May 2008 (UTC)
How long are you in Poznan for, Mr T? Anyone up for an impromptu (and probably extremely small) wikigathering?--Kotniski (talk) 19:58, 24 May 2008 (UTC)

It would have to be tomorrow morning. I'm on a lunch-time train to Wroclaw. Intelligent Mr Toad (talk) 20:00, 24 May 2008 (UTC)

Well, the big Polish wikipedian gathering is just finishing in Rabka ([33]).--Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk 20:05, 24 May 2008 (UTC)

Wrong side of Poland for us, unfortunately. Name a time and place, Mr T; I'll be there, maybe Radomil will join us?--Kotniski (talk) 20:09, 24 May 2008 (UTC)

And it will have to be conducted in English, since my Polish vocabulary has expanded from nil to about six words since I have been here. I'm staying at the Polonez. You're welcome to join me for morning tea. Intelligent Mr Toad (talk) 20:12, 24 May 2008 (UTC)

Thanks, I shall. Any particular time or means of recognition?--Kotniski (talk) 20:17, 24 May 2008 (UTC)

For Kotniski. I'll be in Warsaw probably in August, so we can meet. If you'd be near Silesia we can always meet in Cieszyn. - Darwinek (talk) 20:19, 24 May 2008 (UTC)

I tend to be in Katowice more often than Warsaw, so maybe see you in Cieszyn some time.--Kotniski (talk) 20:25, 24 May 2008 (UTC)
Great, let me know when you'll plan to visit Cieszyn. - Darwinek (talk) 20:39, 24 May 2008 (UTC)

The cafe is on floor A (between 1 and 2). How does 10.30 suit you? Intelligent Mr Toad (talk) 20:21, 24 May 2008 (UTC)

See you tomorrow then. Others are doubtless welcome too.--Kotniski (talk) 20:25, 24 May 2008 (UTC)

I'll be the guy in black reading a big book about World War II. Intelligent Mr Toad (talk) 20:33, 24 May 2008 (UTC)

I'm leaving Poznań on 10:15 and I'll be back after 17:00, so not this time... Radomil talk 20:54, 24 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Draft Guidelines for Lists of companies by country - Feedback Requested

Within WikiProject Companies I am trying to establish guidelines for all Lists of companies by country, the implementation of which would hopefully ensure a minimum quality standard and level of consistency across all of these related but currently disparate articles. The ultimate goal is the improvement of these articles to Featured List status. As a WikiProject that currently has one of these lists within your scope, I would really appreciate your feedback! You can find the draft guidelines here. Thanks for your help as we look to build consensus and improve Wikipedia! - Richc80 (talk) 13:54, 26 May 2008 (UTC)