User talk:Pokladar

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[edit] Welcome

Pokladar, welcome to wikipedia Uvouvo 12:06, 15 February 2006 (UTC)

Pozdrav i dobrodošao na wikipediu!

Jesi Lastovac:-)?

Luka Jačov 14:03, 15 February 2006 (UTC)

Hvala na pozdravu i mogu vam tvrditi da sam punokrvni Hrvat iz otoka Lastova. Ja vidim da ste vi iz sjeverne bande od lijepoj nasu, za koga navijate?

Slusaj Luka, vas prijatelj HRE ganja neku veliko srpsku liniju sto upoce ne pripada na vasu Lastovsku stranicu.

Kad si prvo napravio i napisao povijest na stranicu oduzeo si cistu neutralnu povijest od nasih otok sto tvrdi Dr Antun Jurica.

I am asking you to revert the article back to its original form as you originally posted it. The addition of this Serbian bias is not reflective and if it was true insignificant in the overall history of the island.

If you notice my points on the discussion forum the point I'm trying to make is that different primary sources of this time (DAI & LPD) are few and politically skewed. Even though DAI specifically excludes the island, and hence from Pagania & HRE's argument it is more important as a logical, unbiased and neutral person to look at the primary sources written by the islanders at the time. This is important as to how they viewed themselves not how someone could claim them (HRE).Pokladar 14:09, 16 February 2006 (UTC)

Ne pratim nogomet:-). Ne vidim razloga zašto nekog nazivat Velikosrbom zato što ima drugačiju podatak (kojeg btw nije on izmislio) je besmisleno ko da tebe neko prozive ustašom zato što u članku iznosiš svoje izvore. Sam Jurica ne negira tu tvrdnju al ju dovodi u pitanje. isto tako treba uzeti u obzir da neskolonost hrvatskih povjesničara prema Srbima. ako je taj podatak istinit onda stvarno ne vidim razloga zašto ga se ne bi stavilo pogotovu jer je presudan za povijest Lastova (zbog podpadanja pod vlast Dubrovnika). Inače ovo na stranu odlično je da su se uključila dva Lastovca, bilo bi dobro proširit i druge podnaslove, recimo trivia sa nekim Lastovskim pričama ili legendama, sterotipima a Lastovcima, također napravit Economy section... Inače nije mi jasno zašto Jurica knjigu završava sa krajem talijanske vladavine samim time mi je knjiga nedorečena. Primjerice moglo bi napravit Demographics section no knjiga sadrži podatke samo do 1936 godine. Drugi svjetski rat, JNA okupacija, prvi izbori sve su to teme koje bi bilo dobro i ovdje obraditi.

Pozdrav! Luka Jačov 19:08, 16 February 2006 (UTC)

Luka, I didn't mean soccer when I asked was team you barracked for.

I've given you a chance to remedy the situation which you have clearly ignored. Even HRE in his previous discussions admitted he was using biased sources. When you originally admitted this source you did not include anything about this imported crap of the so-called Caslav's realm applying to this island. You fail to mention at the time prior to the statute Lastovo was part of the Hvar bisphoric and most likely recognised the rule of the Croato-Hungarian kings. My point of bringing up the LPD with HRE was to establish as I have clearly that the ruling class in Duklja & the other southern duchies was in fact mixed and the character slavic at this time & NOT SERBIAN. Serbianization came later with Nemanja. His knowledge of the LPD, DAI & Lastovo in not from first hand sources, neutral unbiased standpoints, but from sites like rastko.org!!!! His knowledge of the exactness and finer points are purposely overlooked or he doesn't know.

I personally know Prof Nenad Vekaric -- professor of genealogical research in Dubrovnik; as well Antun Jurica and have spoken to them of this issue and they DO NOT SHARE YOUR OR HRE's VIEW.

I am not going to waste anymore of my Doctorate on you or HRE; However I will remedy this situation. Let me again make the point joining the dots and including first Lastovo in Pagania; and then in Caslav's "realm" which lasted for only 30 years anyway is a joke. This point is not mentioned anywhere; by either Lucijanovic, Jurica or the DAI. I have provided both Croat & Serb historians (as well as original sources) who say at this time Lastovo was autonomus (not included in Pagania), and gravitated toward the Croato-hungarian kings being in the Hvar bishopric prior to the mutual union with Dubrovnik.Pokladar 22:42, 16 February 2006 (UTC)

I dont c why u attack me when it is clearly that I am not claiming anything on this issue except pointing few things that should be considered. You didnt adress me on other things I pointed out about improving article. I hope we will all cooperate in making Lastovo article better. Afterall thats why we r all here. Pozdrav! Luka Jačov 23:10, 16 February 2006 (UTC)

Luka I did not mean to come across as attacking your article -- I am sorry if you feel that way. However, I did not get the chance to thank you for the original post of your article, because as a native I feel privileged that you would take the time and be interested in our small island. Another point, I took the time to read your post on General Svetozar Borojevic -- I also think did a good job on him. For what its worth I think he was a stern man respected by all who served under him.

Also, if you notice the front cover of Jurica's book -- there is a medieval-like coat hanging on the wall. That coat is on my great-auntie's kitchen wall. The house is now derelict but the coat still remains and is probably still there.Pokladar 09:57, 17 February 2006 (UTC)

You confused Svetozar Borojević with Radomir Putnik which is the article I started. You still didnt anwser me why Jurica stoped his book with end Italian rule? Why dont u edit also other sections of Lastovo article that I mentioned before. Luka Jačov 12:38, 17 February 2006 (UTC)

My apologies, I am to be corrected, Luka you would agree they were both great men though.

Jurica ends his historical section with the incorporation of Lastovo with the SR Hrvatska & the second Jugoslavia (it was not as you know part of the first). Lastovci saw Italian rule as it was -- an occupation. His generation saw and heard first hand of the arrival of the Italians and rejoiced at their departure. Note that in the book he gives first hand accounts of the arrival of the Italians and the subsequent reception by them of the islanders dressed in their national costumes waving the Croatian tricolour.

He sees the union of this island with the Croatia as the end of its struggle, and the liberation of the island at least in the modern sense from the foreign yoke.

There is a legend on the island that I can share with you. It is said that there are 12 gold statutes of the apostles buried somewhere on the island; the most likely version of this legend is that a ship called the "12 apostles" from Dubrovnik was carrying valuable cargo and was shipwrecked near the island in the storm.Pokladar 20:48, 17 February 2006 (UTC)

Well dont share this information only with me put it in Trivia section|:-). Luka Jačov 22:21, 17 February 2006 (UTC)


[edit] Disputes

All disputes can be solved. Please consider that calling someone a Greater Serb is somewhat insultive and considered as a personal attack. Anything that you think is wrong could be repaired, and anything that you didn't understand before could be explained! --HolyRomanEmperor 21:39, 16 February 2006 (UTC)


[edit] Pokladars part - Duklja / Lastovo

There is no point quoting simply one greater serbian all encompasing biased source. I could quote also "Povijest Hrvata" by Dr Mladen Lorkovic a greater Croatian proponent whereby he states and takes literally that the Vojislavljevic line was in fact descended from the earlier Croatian Trpimirovic line whereby he mentions that Predimir is the brother of Kresimir. That is taking the LPD literally -- quoted below:

Afterwards, King Predimir sired four sons, who bore the following names: The first born was called Chlavimir, the second Boleslav, the third Dragislav, and the fourth Svevlad. He divided his kingdom between them in this way: to Chlavimir he gave the region of Zenta with its cities and these zupanias: Lusca, Podlugiae, Gorsca, Cupelnich, Obliquus, Prapratna, Cermenica, Budva with Cuceva and Gripuli; to Boleslav he gave these zupanias: Libomir, Vetanica, Rudina, Crusceviza, Vrmo, Rissena, Draceviza, Canali, Gernoviza; [327] to Dragislav he gave the region of Chelmania and these zupanias: Stantania, Papava, Yabsko, Luca, Vellica, Gorimita, Vecenike, Dubrava and Debre; to Svevlad he gave the region which the Slavs call Podgoria, in Latin "Submontana", and these zupanias: Onogost, Moratia, Comerniza, Piva, Gerico, Netusini, Guisemo, Com, Debreca, Neretva and Rama. He called these four territories Tetrarchies.

King Predimir lived for many years and saw his sons' sons before he died at a ripe old age. He was entombed with great honour, reverence and glory in church of St. Peter in the episcopate of Rassa.

The interesting point here is that Predimir is able to endow to his son distinctly Croat districts of Piva & Rama. Only a Croat noble could pass this on; not take it by force which would denote an invader, that is like Nemanja in Duklja.

XXXI. His brother Cresimir [Crescimir] had a son named Stephen. After his father's death he ruled White Croatia and Bosna, and after him they [his descendants ?] always reigned in Croatia. Cresimir's son had a son by his concubine who had two crippled legs, and for a long time was unable to walk. He was called Leghec. After the death of his father, Leghec was taken to Tribunia [328] to his cousin Boleslav. He [Leghec] was served by a girl named Lovizza, who delighted him so much that they married, and she bore him seven sons who grew up to be bellicose youths who were formidable with arms.

This would make him the progenitor of all the kings of Duklja, which as you know went on to defeat Raska. However, as an intelligent enlightened human being even possessing a first hand account (LPD) I can make the distinction between what would seem real & unreal or probable & improbable. This would relegate Serbia as part of Croatia. HRE would say in this position that all the southern duchies would have a homogeneously Serbian population, Lorkovic would say they would be all Croatian. A reasonable person like most historians claim that the population of the southern duchies was infact mixed.

Common sense would say that when the Croats, and not the Serbs defeated the Avars (DAI) and cleared also the areas of the southern duchies which were made desolate as a result would have populated some areas, most likely coastal areas. The Byzantine emperor later imported Serbs to settle (DAI), those same areas and these Serbs occupied the hinterland (Hum). This pretty much corresponds to the current ethnic distribution whereby Croats inhabit the coastal strip of these duchies and serbs the hinterland (eastern hercegovina & montenegro).

Uvouvo has provided clear and concise quotes from the time and shown impartially that the island of Lastovo enjoyed virtually complete autonomy which was in a large part due to its remote geographical characteristic. If one was to take the generally accepted and impartial view it is quite clear that Lastovo gravitited between the known state boundaries at the time, this even the DAI asserts when it explicitly excludes the island from the Chapter of Pagania and its boundaries. He has also furnished quotes from John Skylitzes & Ivan Dakon.

One must remember that like the LPD the DAI also had a political bias insofar that during the time of the great schism which was in this area visible earlier, portrays Byzantine posturing for these sparsely populated areas and bring them under the Eastern sphere of influence; whereby the Catholic priest of Bar attempts to achieve the opposite and the aggrandisement of his own bisphoric. The most important point and information on this point is not what external sources say, but what the islanders themselves do and say. In the Statute of 1310 they affirm a previous agreement to joint the republic of their own free will, meaning that they saw themseves independent of and different to peoples around them; this is confirmed in DAI. "They tied themselves to the bisphoric of Hvar voluntarily in 1185" meaning the saw themselves not of the Eastern persuasion.

Marin Lucijanovic - Lastovo u Sklopu Dubrovacke Republike 1954 p 257; this is supported by: Dr G Cremosnik - Srpska akedemija Beograd - 1939 str.6

I have provided a reasonable Croat & Serb source to make my claim can you do the same?

In summation I have shown that there was a distinct Croat presence in the southern duchies, HRE attested to this earlier when he cited the presence of Red Croats in the southern duchies. DAI excludes Lastovo from Pagania. Lastovo sees itself autonomous and ties itself to the bisphoric of Hvar in 1185 (which was tied to the Croato-Hungarian kings)and to Dubrovnik in 1272 later codifying it in law in 1310. What could one deduce from these facts logically could be best summed up in

Lastovo -- Logos 1985 str 93

"the events in the middle ages are trustworthy signs that a great autonomy for Lastovo in this period, it most likely recognised Croatian kings as its nominal rulers" Pokladar 11:26, 15 February 2006 (UTC)


Pokladar, thanks for finally registering. I dont have time to monitor the edits tonight, but will look into it tomorrow. HLE, Luka i will follow up in the morning :) Uvouvo 11:46, 15 February 2006 (UTC)

To User:Uvouvo: Yes, I already clarified that statement. The Neretvians conquered the island from the Croatians, obviously. Didn't you notice when I agreed with you on that matter?

To User:Pokladar: Your clarification makes six daring errors:

  • It mentions this fictionous "King" Predimir; note that Duklja was never a Kingdom before 1077
  • It again mentions Predimir as a King
  • I find strange how could only a Croatian noble pass on Piva and Rama. Why is that considered?
  • Your statements also include that this King Predimir (that was never King) was the brother of the Croatian King Krešimir. You might find it interesting that Kresimir ruled Croatia (look at List_of_rulers_of_Croatia) in 935-945. King Predimir (that was never King) ruled Duklja in the 9th century. How can this be correct?
  • Krešimir had two sons: Miroslav and Mihajlo Krešimir, as can be seen on Krešimir I of Croatia. Where is this fictinous "Stephen"?
  • You mentioned Stefan Nemanja as an invader

These statements show that the info from that book is, essentially, incorrect. Doesn't it?

However, nothing mentioned here is of the subject. :O) The subject is whether Serbia ruled Lastovo ever. Like I said here can be seen that the Narentines conquered after 945 the island of Lastovo from the Kingdom of Croatia, while Prince Časlav Klonimirović of Vlastimir, who ruled Pagania from before 931 to 960, advanced into Bosnia annexing those territories.

Regards. --HolyRomanEmperor 16:09, 15 February 2006 (UTC)

It is not my clarification that is the LPD's point, and my point of taking everything literally.

Mihaljo Kresimir 949-970 did have a son who wasStjepan Drzislav 970-995; his younger brother was knez Predimir who was 19 when the throne was assumed


I agree with you that King Predimir was in fact a knez,and not a king. This would make sense as he was the kings brother (knez), or prince. Also, when sent to rule the southern duchies - a prince /duke rules a duchy and not a king. An interesting note is that later when Mihaljo was crowned together with Zvonomir 1075 - he was crowned by the papal legate as the "king of the slavs" John Skylitzes says "rules over those who call themselves Croats".. My point is which you fail to realise is that these duchies were in fact mixed as can be seen by its ruling class. http://homepages.rootsweb.com/~cousin/html/p278.htm See also wiki LPD article.

Note who he married.

This would also mean Mihaljo did in fact have both croatian & serbian blood, whilst ruling a mixed population. This is enforced by the fact that he is crowned as the king of the slavs so as to appeal to all his subjects.

Also you cannot really assert that Nemanja was welcomed in catholic slavic Duklja as a saviour. He by force converted it to orthodoxy.

This shows that the information is correct doesn't it ?

You have missed my whole point. My point is that these southern duchies prior to the advent of Nemanja by force were a mix of both Croat & Serbian. You are saying that because Caslav ruled Bosna & Pagania, of which Lastovo was not a part (DAI) for only a brief period from 930-960, you seem to think that it warrants six lines of text in Lastovo's history, as opposed to generally accepted version of its centuries of Croatian history either side of this date which is not mentioned at all.

Show me a source apart from a serbian site that he in fact conquers Pagania. Lastovo is anyway excluded in DAI from Pagania. My point which you seem to have chosen to ignore was at this time these duchies were in fact acting as a buffer between east & west during the time of the great schism. They are not exclusively Serbian which you try to claim with Caslav. Serbianization came to Duklja later with Nemanja and the process of conversion to orthodoxy took centuries thereafter.

Does not Vuk Karadzic exclude as non-serbs speakers of the cakavian dialect; this is spoken on Lastovo. Why since antiquity is there an uvala Hrvaska on the southern part of the island; it has been known this since antiquity. There are no visible, archeological or cultural signs of serbs ever on the island.

Quite clearly this island due to its geographic characteristics was remote and gravitated between the periphery of these southern duchies; both you (HRE) and I are relying on a broad text loaded with political bias (DAI & LPD) to try and explain the unique & specific history of these people.

So the most important point and information on this point is not what external sources say, but what the islanders themselves do and say. In the Statute of 1310 they affirm a previous agreement to joint the republic of their own free will, meaning that they saw themseves independent of and different to peoples around them; this is confirmed in DAI. "They tied themselves to the bisphoric of Hvar voluntarily in 1185" meaning the saw themselves not of the Eastern persuasion.

So in summation as previously

Lastovo -- Logos 1985 str 93

"the events in the middle ages are trustworthy signs that a great autonomy for Lastovo in this period, it most likely recognised Croatian kings as its nominal rulers"Pokladar 13:26, 16 February 2006 (UTC)

Pokladar, I see the points you are making and I essentially agree with your overall point. HRE is missing this on purpose. However maybe you should be pursuing this on the Duklja article - go for it. I am not well versed on the LPD as I am on the DAI (anyone know where to get a complete source of the LPD?)
HRE - you said: "Yes, I already clarified that statement. The Neretvians conquered the island from the Croatians, obviously. Didn't you notice when I agreed with you on that matter?". My point precisely. You dont care about whether it was conquered or returned. Your only interested in the serbian realm of caslav being mentioned. I still havent seen your source (I need something better than Rastko). Also you havent countered why the DAI specifically leaves Lastobon out of Pagania?
Pokladar, I also agree about the Chakavian dialect as well. This was exclusively used by Croats and by the Croatian nobility. The bascanska ploca and most early medieval croat documents were written in the cakavski dialect. This suggests Lastovo must have been populated by slavs of the same stock, since there is no recorded migration of chakavski speakers to the island. (Sto / Jekavski yes because of Dubrovnik influence since 1252).
I've made it very clear already that i think Caslavs realm should be removed. I will wait until i get all my arguments ready before I edit. Maybe by the weekend. I have also many other parts of the article to contribute to as well.
Lastly, i really like the wording from your logos source Pokladar. I have that book I need to give it a quick read. Uvouvo 14:36, 16 February 2006 (UTC)

To Poklada: I'm sorry, but I have to correct you again. King Zvonimir was crowned King of Croatia in 1076, while King Mihailo got the crown in 1077. How could they be crowned together then?

Please note of which religion was Stefan Nemanja. Stefan Nemanja was a Catholic Christian. And please, point to me where was this forceful conversion?

I agree with you on the third matter, but it's wikipedia's policy to add things, not remove them. Do you know what I mean?

Conquers? What do you mean by conquers? You cannot conquer something that is already yours. :D You may notice that Prince Caslav had ruled Serbia, and Pagania and Travunia with it, as stated in De Administrando Imperio. He also managed to tackle in the affairs of Duklja.

The cultural heritage of Serbs on the island is not the subject. Owning the island is (the island's population could've been Bedouins, but it would not change its rulers).

To User:Uvouvo: Don't be so harsh. If you fail to notice, I have been agreeing with everything that you said by now!. --HolyRomanEmperor 21:24, 16 February 2006 (UTC)

To HRE, I am growing tired in schooling you as to the finer points of both the DAI & LPD. How well do you know these sources DIRECTLY?

Firstly, I think I cleared that Predimir issue up for you don't you think? Secondly, Zvonomir & Mihaljo were crowned by the same papal legate I did not say on the same day and in the same place. Thirdly, The DAI SPECIFICALLY EXCLUDES LASTOVO & VIS FROM PAGANIA & HENCE FROM YOUR ARGUMENT. Fourthly, Nemanja conquering Duklja is not me saying it but his own description of its acquisition see uvouvo's point on this subject THAT SHOULD POINT YOU TO IT.

Other points

I ASK YOU AGAIN PROVIDE A NON-RASTKO.ORG SOURCE FOR YOUR DELUSIONAL ASSERTION THAT SOMEHOW LASTOVO FELL INTO CASLAV'S REALM. YOU ARE AVOIDING DIRECT QUESTIONS.

EVEN NJEGOS.ORG EXCLUDES LASTOVO & VIS FROM THIS "REALM".

PUT UP OR SHUT UP. I AM GROWING TIRED OF THIS REPETITION.Pokladar 12:08, 17 February 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Poklada and others:

I have read a great portion of the Chronicle of the Priest of Duklja, and just say if you want a brief summary; I could give you a good explaination of most of the book. As about De Administrando Imperio - I can't brag that I know a lot about it - save for the chapters regarding the migrations of Goths and Slavs to the Balkan peninsular and the recommendations on the planned defences of the Eastern Roman Empire's eastern (Asian) borders.

Secondly, nope, you haven't cleared the matter on Predimir up. In fact, you made it even more confusing. You claim that Predimir was Mihajlo's brother. That makes, regretebly, no sence. You state that Mihajlo Krešimir's brother was Predimir, right? How? Mihajlo Krešimir's younger brother was named Miroslav; and he was King of Croatia before Mihajlo Krešimir. I find it very amusing that Mihajlo Krešimir had ruled betwee 949 and 969, and not to 970 as you stated. Now, Predimir was Archont of Duklja (and your sources claim that he was King) in the 9th century. According to all documents, Predimir died before 900. I find it very strange how could their deaths vary in 50 - 100 years :O).

Poklada, note this image; it's Predimir's making - and the image dates from the early 9th century
Poklada, note this image; it's Predimir's making - and the image dates from the early 9th century

Then you said ...Mihaljo was crowned together with Zvonomir 1075... and yet Zvonimir was crowned in 1076 and Mihailo in 1077.

Now, about the DAI matter. It describes the coming of Slavs to the land. It means that the Neretvians inhabited four islands since their arrival! It explains the Slavic migrations to the region that occured in the first half of the 7th century.

[edit] Stefan Nemanja

I think that you do not understand several bits on Stefan Nemanja. I maintain that the southern Slavic peoples were distinct or highly influenced at some periods by the Serbian and Croatian nationalities, but during the reign of Stefan Nemanja, the population of Zeta (with Travunia) and Zahumlje (with Pagania) was - indisputably Serbian, as it adopted that nationality over the centuries. During the disorders in the struggles regarding who will be the next supreme ruler - Grand Prince of Rascia, Prince Zavida of Zahumlje had fled from Rascia to Duklja's capital - Ribnica. There, in 1114, he had his last son - Stefan Nemanja. Stefan Nemanja was baptised by the local priest in Ribnica as a Catholic Christian. After the Byzantines restored order in the Rascian lands, they split the among the four sons of Zavida:

  • Miroslav
  • Tihomir
  • Nemanja, who ruled a portion of Duklja from Ribnica, but had other fiefdoms in central-to-eastern Rascia
  • Stracimir, who had numerious lands in Rascia, and the coast of Duklja

So, the coastal part of Duklja became Stracimir's and the inner - Nemanja's. Both were subjected to their brother, Grand Prince Tihomir of Rascia, who in turn was subjected to the Byzantine Emperor. (for more indormation, see the article about the list of Serbian monarchs). Stracimir opposed Nemanja's wished to depose their brother, Tihomir, but Tihomir was very old and was losing fighting the civil war on Kosovo (near Pantino), so Stracimir, together with his brother Miroslav, recognized Stefan Nemanja as Grand Prince of Rascia. Stracimir would bring the general downfall of his lands:

  • he supported Grand Prince Tihomir of Rascia instead of Nemanja, then switching to Nemanja's side suddenly
  • he started a war with the Republic of Dubrovnik and then withdrew from it
  • he made very errorous raids on Korčula and Vis which cost him more than he gained, during which he lost his entire navy in 1184/1185

This all would eventually bring to the slow failing of Stracimir's influence in the Grand Principality of Rascia, his power, prestige and would soon lead to his death of old age. Stefan Nemanja, now converted to Orthodox Christianity, decided to finish the downfall of the Coastland (that is what he calls Morska zemlja in his quotation, he already ruled the inner lands). During the process, he entered Kotor, the Seaside's largest and most beautiful City, which accepted him valiently, and made it the centre of his campaign - whose goal was to end all seperatist tendencies of the now failing powerful nobility of Zeta (Duklja). He would only pass through some cities - while he would raid those that didn't accept his rule. Nemanja annexed Duklja directly into Rascia. Nemanja would then restore Zetan autonomy, but make sure that it would always be subjected to the Grand Principality of Rascia. This rule would be broken on several occasions, like with Queen Hellena of Anjou that ruled the Kingdom of Zeta, almost independently. Although, one law would remain: the successor to the Serbian throne would rule Zeta until the ruler's death, when his successor would rule Duklja, and so on (I suppose that's for learning the basics of being a ruler). Now, it is true that Stefan Nemanja greatly contributed Orthodox Christianity in the region, why is this significant?

[edit] Some more explainations & advices

For those last aggressive posts of yours - please view the WP:cool and WP:civil Wikipedia's policies and I would advice you to follow them in the future.

I am avoiding direct questions. You're not asking direct questions! :)

I presented you with a source saying that the Neretvians conquered Lastovo after 945. Note that Rastko received more awards than me or you could ever see in our entire lives: it is also accepted as an international source and it runs the branch of the Gutenberg Project for Europe! What you should do is find a source that negates that the Neretvians took Lastovo cca. 945, or simply stop resorting to accepting only sources that respond only to your claims.

Don't you think that I'm a little tired too? :) It took me quitte a bit to type all this, so read carefully.

[edit] One last, VERY interesting bit

Here User:Poklada stated a source to back his statements: Poklada's source

[edit] The mention of Jovan Vladimir in Poklada's source

Jovan Vladimir was recognized as a saint and martyr and is still celebrated by the Serbian Orthodox Church.

Quoting a part of Poklada's source:

  • knez Duklje Jovan Vladimir Dukljanina was... ...Also called St. Vladimir of Serbia

[edit] The mention of Predimir (the arguement's main subject) =

Quoting a part of Poklada's source:

After his death, he was buried in the (Eastern Rite) Church of Saint Peter in Rascia's capital - Ras. He was entombed with great honour, and indeed considered a Serbian national hero for the next 1,100 years.

I already stated that it is clearly an error, as he could not have ruled in the 10th century as the source states, but the 9th century, as the insignia proves. Additionally, he was buried in the church before 900. It also states that he married the Princes of the unkown Prince of Rascia after 969. This is not possible, as after the death of the earlier-mentioned Prince Ceslav of Klonimir of the House of Vlastimir by a Hungarian blade in 960, north of the river of Danube (see History of Serbia and Caslav's article too), the Byzantines made his realm the theme of Serbia, and implaced Constantine Diogenes of Thessalonika as its first strategos. However, the was Princes Prevala of Rascia in the 9th century.

[edit] The mention of Ljutomir Velji of Srpsko Zagorje

...is missed by about a hundred years, regarding that it is Ceslav the one that ruled in that time.

[edit] The mention of Stefan Voislav

The source mentions that he is the lawful heir of the Serbian rulling dynasty and mentions that he was also the heir to the old Croatian ruling family - but it mentions everywhere who is whose father/mother and I see only Serbian rulers...

[edit] Conclusions

Note that the wife of Pavao Šubić was the daughter of King Stefan Dragutin (which makes their children mixed). And the wife of Mladen Šubić - the sister of Emperor Stefan Dušan (which makes their children mixed). Even Josip Jelačić's mother was a Serb.

Note also a certain Serbian nobleman by the name of Beloš, son of Rascia's Prince Uroš - he is the founder of a Croatian small family, as he was Ban (title) of Croatia. Does anyone call the Šubićs as partly Serbs? - no: they are a Croatian family, just as the Vojislavljevićs are a Serbian family.

You probably do not know as well, that the Vojislavljevićs ruled Serbia at times during their early stages, and gave birth to the second hereditary dynasy of Serbia.

I rest my case here. I think all is clear know. --HolyRomanEmperor 22:49, 17 February 2006 (UTC)

[edit] HRE

Ljetopis Popa Dukljanin

Afterwards, [[King Predimir sired four sons, who bore the following names: The first born was called Chlavimir, the second Boleslav, the third Dragislav, and the fourth Svevlad]]. He divided his kingdom between them in this way: to Chlavimir he gave the region of Zenta with its cities and these zupanias: Lusca, Podlugiae, Gorsca, Cupelnich, Obliquus, Prapratna, Cermenica, Budva with Cuceva and Gripuli; to Boleslav he gave these zupanias: Libomir, Vetanica, Rudina, Crusceviza, Vrmo, Rissena, Draceviza, Canali, Gernoviza; [327] to Dragislav he gave the region of Chelmania and these zupanias: Stantania, Papava, Yabsko, Luca, Vellica, Gorimita, Vecenike, Dubrava and Debre; to Svevlad he gave the region which the Slavs call Podgoria, in Latin "Submontana", and these zupanias: Onogost, Moratia, Comerniza, Piva, Gerico, Netusini, Guisemo, Com, Debreca, Neretva and Rama. He called these four territories Tetrarchies.

King Predimir lived for many years and saw his sons' sons before he died at a ripe old age. He was entombed with great honour, reverence and glory in church of St. Peter in the episcopate of Rassa.

The interesting point here is that Predimir is able to endow to his son distinctly Croat districts of Piva & Rama. Only a Croat noble could pass this on; not take it by force which would denote an invader, that is like Nemanja in Duklja.

XXXI. [[His brother Cresimir [Crescimir] had a son named Stephen. After his father's death he ruled White Croatia and Bosna, and after him they [his descendants ?] always reigned in Croatia]]. Cresimir's son had a son by his concubine who had two crippled legs, and for a long time was unable to walk. He was called Leghec. [[After the death of his father, Leghec was taken to Tribunia [328] to his cousin Boleslav]]. He [Leghec] was served by a girl named Lovizza, who delighted him so much that they married, and she bore him seven sons who grew up to be bellicose youths who were formidable with arms.


1 DOES IT OR DOES IT NOT SAY THAT PREDIMIR IS BROTHER TO THE CROATIAN KING?

2 DOES IT SAY THAT THE KRESMIR'S SON IS COUSIN TO PREDMIR'S SON BOLESLAV AND THAT HE WAS TAKEN TO TRIBUNIA?

3 DID NOT KING MIHALJO KRESIMIR HAVE A SON STJEPAN?

http://homepages.rootsweb.com/~cousin/html/p278.htm PREDIMIR WAS BORN CIRCA 930 WHICH MADE HIM 19 WHEN MIHALJO KRESIMIR (WHO HAS A SON STEPHEN) ASSUMED THE THRONE

4 IS NOT MIHALJO & BODIN DESCENDED FROM PREDIMIR? (AGAIN CHECK GENEALOGY)

5 WAS NOT MIHALJO CROWNED KING OF THE SLAVS (WHY NOT SERBS EXCLUSIVELY?)

PLEASE ANSWER THE QUESTIONS 1-5 DIRECTLY. YES OR NO ANSWERS WILL DO CUTTING & PASTING PREVIOUS ARTICLES IS NOT NECESSARY.

LETS TALK ABOUT THE SOUCE DIRECTLY PLEASE HRE & PLEASE DO ME THE RESPECT OF ANSWERING THE QUESTIONS DIRECTLY.

KIND REGARDS Pokladar 12:07, 20 February 2006 (UTC)


[edit] Answers to Pokladar's questions

1. I am afraid that I'll insist to see the source here.

2. Here too.

3. Yes, he had.

4. That cannot be said - it is unkown - there are too many gaps in the family.

5. I'll answer with a counter-question: why did King Tomislav crown himself as King of Slavs - additionally - Tomislav's realm became remembered as the Kingdom of Croatia - so did Mihailo's realm become remembered as the Kingdom of Serbia. Mihailo's reference to himself - was Ruler of Tribals & Serbs

Pokladar, what you fail to see -> is that that can be applied the other way. For instance, if we put on the Duklja article that he was the brother of the Croatian King: the so must we add on the Cro King's article that he was the brother of the Serbian Prince... --HolyRomanEmperor 21:39, 20 February 2006 (UTC)

[edit] This is the full genealogy here:

The following are rulers of Serbia:

Do you see the line of heritage? Note who are those rulers. How can we say that it's not a Serbian dynasty? --HolyRomanEmperor 14:22, 18 February 2006 (UTC)