Talk:Pokemon (subculture)

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

This article is within the scope of the following WikiProjects:
Articles for deletion This article was nominated for deletion on 10 March 2008. The result of the discussion was keep.

[edit] Contested

CSD A1 says: No context. Very short articles lacking sufficient context to identify the subject of the article. Example: "He is a funny man with a red car. He makes people laugh."

I do not see how this article lacks context. It clearly says what it is about, and it provides two reliable sources.

If I knew enough Spanish to better understand the TVN report (which I assume is considered a reliable source, it being Chile's national news station and all), this article could probably be a lot bigger than it is now.

CSD nominee Chester1 says "this neologism is a nickname for a group of trendy teenages in chile" - yes, that could be true of chavs in the UK as well, yet that article is unquestionably notable. Esn (talk) 11:32, 10 March 2008 (UTC)

Nice strawman. The new Pokemon fashion trend sweeping Chile? I'd have a hard time identifying that, especially when you're throwing around words like "subculture" unqualified and unsourced. Citing a Chinese photo montage and a Chilean news report covering the latest teen hairstyles is hardly sufficient context, as far as I'm concerned, to figure out what on earth this article is about. I've watched the news report and I speak enough Spanish that I can tell you it's as notable as a group of kids who were in 8th grade when I was that age - they listened to NuMetal and had piercings and they all smoked and were total rebels. They were called "freaks" and they were in the news once or twice and like any good news program, they made it sound just like these Pokemon kids - the new crazy thing kids are doing. They have funny hair and listen to reggaeton. That could be half the people on my block, and I live in the US. We might as well have a Hot Topic (subculture), although at least that would have more context. Wikipedia is not news, it is not a collection of neologisms, it is not a fashion database, and it is not an indiscriminate collection of data or information you think might be true. --Cheeser1 (talk) 11:33, 10 March 2008 (UTC)
First of all, your response clearly shows that you misunderstand the criteria for Speedy Deletion Nomination. I thereby request that an admin move this to the regular AFD instead, if necessary.
Secondly, the Chinese photo-montage and the accompanying text do not describe hair styles but they do describe this as a fashion trend and dance style popular among Chile youth. What I think is irrelevant here (and by the way, it looks like wikipedia is a fashion database). Regarding the content of the Chilean TV report, I do not trust you to provide an unbiased account, so I would ask that one or more neutral persons who speak Spanish say what they think. Esn (talk) 11:43, 10 March 2008 (UTC)
Again with the strawman. It's not a fashion database, it's an encyclopedia. We do not list every trend among every teenage clique ever. The fact that it was on the news once or twice is simply not enough, and the article still provides no context or explanation as to what this is, especially since I removed the dubious (or rather, patently false/OR) use of the term "youth subculture" (not to mention nowhere does it say that this is a style of dance). --Cheeser1 (talk) 11:56, 10 March 2008 (UTC)
Also, here's another TVN news report: "Campaña Pitéate un Pokemon" Esn (talk) 11:48, 10 March 2008 (UTC)

[1] : "Youths following a style known as Pokemon dance in a discotheque" Esn (talk) 11:55, 10 March 2008 (UTC)

Dance is a verb too you know. Youths dance. That is the subject/verb of that sentence. It does not say "Pokemon [style] dance." Please read carefully before re-inserting original research into the article, especially when you're using that OR to assert notability and/or provide non-existent context. --Cheeser1 (talk) 11:57, 10 March 2008 (UTC)
Ok, I honestly did not see that interpretation of the words. You're right, that may be the case. This makes finding someone who understands the video reports that much more important. Regarding the word "subculture" which you find objectionable, the China Daily article refers to them as a "group"[2]; however, "group" is a word with a very broad meaning, and I think that in the context, "subculture" is what is meant. What else do you think it could mean in that context? Esn (talk) 12:00, 10 March 2008 (UTC)
You think group might mean subculture? Have you read WP:OR? I suggest you do so. --Cheeser1 (talk) 12:04, 10 March 2008 (UTC)
Fine, I've changed it to say "group". What is Spanish for "subculture"? Esn (talk) 12:10, 10 March 2008 (UTC)
The fact that you introduced the word into the article, having no idea whether it was substantiated by sources (and indeed, re-inserted it when it was removed on valid grounds) makes me very concerned. It's subcultura. --Cheeser1 (talk) 12:15, 10 March 2008 (UTC)
Ok, I'll admit that my sources for putting in the word "subculture". were what could be called original research (adding together the different reliable sources provided, as well as what I was told by a friend who lives in Chile). I'm sorry, and I'll try not to do it again. You also suggested the word to me by suggesting the name of this article in the Pokemon talk page, by the way. Esn (talk) 12:24, 10 March 2008 (UTC)
I did no such thing. I did not introduce that word to this discussion. I do not introduce OR into this project so freely. --Cheeser1 (talk) 12:39, 10 March 2008 (UTC)
By the way, I think this discussion proves more than ever that this should have gone to AFD, not CSD. Esn (talk) 12:02, 10 March 2008 (UTC)
Fascinating. I feel like 8 words are required for adequate context. --Cheeser1 (talk) 12:04, 10 March 2008 (UTC)
There are three reliable sources now, two of which require someone who understands Spanish well to really analyze. Esn (talk) 12:10, 10 March 2008 (UTC)
I'll just point you back to WP:V. If you're really that desperate for sources, you might want to once again consider why you created this article and how verifiable it might actually be. --Cheeser1 (talk) 12:15, 10 March 2008 (UTC)
Let's not forget Mzoli's. I'm having difficulty finding sources (and understanding them when I do find them), but I have a strong suspicion that there's something there to write an article about. So I took the initiative, simple as that, on the assumption that other people more knowledgeable than I might be able to add more. Esn (talk) 12:24, 10 March 2008 (UTC)
That's what userspace is for. --Cheeser1 (talk) 12:41, 10 March 2008 (UTC)
ESN, I agree with you on one point: I'm fine with it if you make this an AfD. - Face 12:18, 10 March 2008 (UTC)
It's not my decision to make. Esn (talk) 12:24, 10 March 2008 (UTC)
...at least, I think. Wouldn't removing the CSD template be considered vandalism? No, I'm assuming that this has to be done by an administrator. Esn (talk) 12:28, 10 March 2008 (UTC)
For someone who accused me of not knowing how to use the CSD, you don't seem to know much. It says right in the box, in bold: do not remove this notice from pages that you have created yourself. --Cheeser1 (talk) 12:30, 10 March 2008 (UTC)
Which is why I did not do it. And I still think that this should be in AFD, not CSD. Esn (talk) 12:34, 10 March 2008 (UTC)
Ok, I've made it an AfD now. I also made an entry of this in the Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Log/2008 March 10 to notify users who monitor AfD discussions. Let other Wikipedian have a look at it. - Face 12:43, 10 March 2008 (UTC)

I do live in Chile, and can corroborate that this is in fact a relevant phenomenon in youth culture, social branding, stereotyping and marketing oriented identity construction in Chilean contemporary society. Unlike other youth trends, in Chile or anywhere, "pokemones" has the particularity that, as a historical phenomenon, is one of the most interesting cases of labeling and social branding i (as a sociologist) have witnessed.

It is NOT just "another youth trend", but a wider phenomenon involving classist sterreotyping that have been tremendously fueled by the media, as a form of pasive discrimnation. This is not a minor trend, and although some teens have started representing themselves as such, it was originally a pejorative term. In chile, there have even been organized anti-pokemones violence raids in recent months, and things like that.

I don't have the time to explain further here, but i just wanted to let you people know that the fact that you don't speak spanish is no reasson to determine that some topic is gibberish. This is a respectable local phenomenon, and just as well as we have articles about different cultural trends and their impact, there's no reasson to delete this article, apart from (US, english speaking) etnocentricity. Unfortunately, i don't have time to write an article about it, but i will look further references.

Now, besides that, Cheeser: This is an enciclopedya. As such, its aim is to be a compendium of human knowledge, and although you may think otherwise, noelogisms, fashion trends etcetera ARE part of human knowledge, and quite possibly, subject of interest to a very broad audience. We have articles on almost every god-damned japanese gayru style, or any historical UK or US fashion trend, and i agree with having those. WP is not a fashion database, but it should encomapss every fashion worth mentioning in such database. Gorgonzola (talk) 13:31, 10 March 2008 (UTC)

That's an incredibly long explanation of how you want to include original research about a non-notable fashion trend / neologism in Wipiedia. I'm sorry that you've so greatly misunderstood the purpose of Wikipedia, but it is not a database of all human knowledge, especially not things that you purport to corroborate off the top of your head. I can think of 100 different things kids wore while I was in high school that don't have their own article because they aren't notable. Also, keep in mind that comments like "gayru" can get you blocked for abusive homophobic language. --Cheeser1 (talk) 13:38, 10 March 2008 (UTC)
Asserting that this is non-notable and a mere neologism is OR on your part, Cheeser. You don't know that it is. I'd suggest you listen to the guy who lives in Chile and maybe ask him to help and tell him how to do it, rather than telling him off. With that having been said, Gorgonzola, can you find any more articles that talk about this? That would be really helpful. It would also be helpful if you could explain what this TVN report really says. Esn (talk) 13:43, 10 March 2008 (UTC)
i'd love to, but unfortunately, i was just passing thru and noticed all the heat about pokemons and all that. I'll try to find more sources, but i don't have time to write the article... i'll see how i can help. Gorgonzola (talk) 14:04, 10 March 2008 (UTC)
Non-notability is the null hypothesis Esn. The burden is on you. --Cheeser1 (talk) 14:10, 10 March 2008 (UTC)
well, you are not understanding my point then. Pokemones is NOT another teen fashion trend, it is a broader social phenomenon, that has not evolved as a normal ten fashion, but as an effort to label teens in one of two categories: pkemones, or pelolais. If you are blond, skinny and rich, you are pelolais, and if you deviate form such arquetype, you are labeled pokemon. This has sparked waves of organized violence, and several tv-channels have jumped on the wagon and made special programs for pokemons and pelolais. The main difference here is that this is not a teen fashgion, but a marketing-oriented labeling phenomena, wich is "notable" in its own sense.
This is not original research, there are at least two relevant chilean sources, more than what can be said of most stubs.
This is at least as notable as Ganguro or Rudeboy
This is not a neologism, there's no reasson to believe that there's nothing more than a definition to say about the topic (wich would make it a dictionary entry) and if there are no sources yet it's because it is clearly a stub.
I never said that WP was a "database" of human knowledge, i was just citing encyclopedia or, if you prefer, http://www.britannica.com/eb/article-9106030/encyclopaedia, specially where it says "An encyclopedia, or, traditionally, encyclopædia, is a comprehensive written compendium that contains information on all branches of knowledge". Wether you like it or not, WP IS an ecnyclopedia, and as such, it should aim to include every branch of human knowledge.
Finally, i mispelled gyaru, and was refering to the japanese term. i don't see why i could be blocked. see gyaru
oh, and by the way, is "pokemón", not "pokémon". plural "pokemones".
Gorgonzola (talk) 13:56, 10 March 2008 (UTC)
It's amazing how you insist that this is a broad sociological phenomenon, despite having no sources to that effect (strawman all you like with actual subcultures/fashions that are notable). And while we're spouting off our own personal anecdotes, "gayru" and variants are used, in my experience, as not-so-gay-friendly puns on gyuru. Of course, that's relevant to talk pages, not so relevant to articles. --Cheeser1 (talk) 14:10, 10 March 2008 (UTC)
I did not say that the fashion in itself was a broader social phenomenon, but that the reaction to it is. You are saying that this article should be deleted, now not because it's not notable, but because it lacks sources. I'm sayng that 1.- it is a notable article, see above and 2.- it has no sources... YET. It is a stub, and i hope someone will find sources. Claerly, you have no idea about chilean subcultures, and i don't have time at the moment to produce sources (besides that i find it unnecesary, being that this is presently a stub).
Could you excplain wich part of my previous post constitutes a strawman?
Apart from that I urge to change your tone and stop with the personal attacks ("spouting personal experience"?!? get a grip.) in accordance with WP:CIVIL and WP:AGF.Gorgonzola (talk) 14:37, 10 March 2008 (UTC)
I suggest you consider how you set the tone before you tell me what to do about it. If you want to rant about my ignorance of your Chilean life and times, remember that your personal experiences are irrelevant. You're right, I have no idea about Chilean subcultures. Fortunately, this article is not about such a thing, and by reading this article I am no more familiar with Chilean subcultures than I was before. Hence the AfD. Like I've said before, there is no grace period for new articles, nor is there a WP:V exception for stubs. This article was pitiful when I tagged it for deletion, and now it's perhaps barely passable if there were room for improvement, but I don't see it. Now, if you have anything about "the reaction to the fashion" being a "broader social phenomenon" I'd love to see it, but you've barely got photogalleries and newsclips featuring everyones favorite new Chilean teen fashion. --Cheeser1 (talk) 15:56, 10 March 2008 (UTC)
Actually, his personal experiences were in this case very relevant. It was his recounting of his personal experiences that enabled me to refine my google search and actually find some much nicer sources (I searched for "pelolais" and "pokemones" and found a whole bunch of stuff). Just because something is not directly useful doesn't meant that it can't be indirectly so. Open your eyes! Anyway, thank you Gorgonzola. Esn (talk) 16:32, 10 March 2008 (UTC)
you are welcomed, just trying to help here :) Gorgonzola (talk) 16:35, 10 March 2008 (UTC)

some sources, two minutes googling in chilean media:

  • Column about discrimation an violence against "pokemones", with comments by Claudio Duarte, Director, Sociology Departament, Universidad de Chile.

http://www.universia.cl/portada/actualidad/noticia_actualidad.jsp?noticia=127020

  • News report, Pokemones beaten by Skinheads and Nazi-punks

http://www.lun.com/modulos/catalogo/paginas/2008/01/28/LUCSTDI02LU2801.htm

  • "Plan anti poke-eva", a "plan" for the abolition of pokemones, thru direct attacks at "El Diario de Eva", a popular ptv-show very popular among pokemones.

http://www.wikipediars.com/wiki/Plan_anti_poke-eva

  • Video form the tv-show "en boca de todos", of the conservative catholic station (canal 13) criticizing the lax morals of pokemones. This has been a sharp point of debate, because of the pokemon practice of "ponceo", which is, roughly, to got out and make out with as much people as you can. In the views if Chile's very conservative stablishment, this is moral outrage.

http://enbocadetodos.wordpress.com/2008/01/10/pokemones/

Now, from my "personal experience"... This is not just "another teen trend". believe me, chilean teens love fashion trends, and every year theres is a new one (sk8ers, raperos, hardcores, capoeiristas, lanas, etc), but i had never seen a teen trend that 1.- is so clearly the result of media pushed stereotyping, 2.- has incited such a deep and heated moral debate about the sexual habits of our youth 3.- has sparked concerted campaigns to take violent action *purely* on the basis of style and fashion reassons, as opposed to political reassons, like the traditional beatings of punks and neonazis. I can translate the above if necessary, and if i find the time. Gorgonzola (talk) 16:35, 10 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Name

Because both of the English sources (particularly Newsweek) refer to an individual member or the style as "Pokemon", and a group as "Pokemones" (with no accent on either the "e" or the "o"), I moved this page to "Pokemon (subculture)". Esn (talk) 01:58, 20 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Ponceo

I'm sorry for adding in that blog as a source, I know that it's not really allowed. But it also seems that Newsweek might've gotten their story (and particularly their definition of ponceo, which they called "public sexual orgies") dramatically wrong.

Here's a comment from a user at this link:

bodhirocking at 01:52 AM

hahahahahahaha (LOL for americans) Actually I'm from chile, and i was like WTF when I read the last article about the "horny emo teens" (aka Orgy Pokémon'es).

Anyway that thing that they call "Ponceo" it's like gettin' a really lucky night making out with chicks. And it all started since the reggaeton music hitted us in Chile, they all started imitating the emo fashion (don't know why, too much MTV USA maybe?), but the party-like behavior it's like the one you can see from a reggaeton music video.

The thing about the orgy, came from some kids that recorded a girl named Natalie, doing some BJ to another classmate, they upped the video to youtube, and named it "Wena Naty" (something like Quagmire saying "All right, Naty"). Everyone started talking about it, even in the media, papers, tv shows and all that. the feds had to take out every link to the video, since they are minors but you can still find some remains from it. The girl was coincidentally a follower of the "Pokemon fashion".

If this is true, it should be possible to find more reliable sources for this version of events. Esn (talk) 05:00, 21 March 2008 (UTC)

I facepalmed so hard after reading this. Why are you posting user comments from Kotaku? I know I'm supposed to assume good faith...but logic should be obvious as to what material should be presented on Wikipedia. --HeaveTheClay (talk) 13:09, 23 April 2008 (UTC)