Talk:Poison laboratory of the Soviet secret services

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Contents 1 C-2 2 Gansakhurdia poisoning - is original research 3 Proposed name change 4 Yezhow (TIME 1938)

[edit] C-2

Can you supply an English (or German or Arabic or French or Spanish) language on-line source for information about the "C-2 (carbylomine cholinchloride)" that is mentioned in the article? Could this be a Carbylamine? W. Frank 18:43, 17 May 2007 (UTC)

You are probably right. That suppose to be a. I took this from the book by Vadim J. Birstein. The Perversion Of Knowledge: The True Story of Soviet Science. Westview Press (2004) ISBN 0-813-34280-5. I will check this later and let you know. Do you know anything about this compound?Biophys 19:59, 17 May 2007 (UTC)

This is probably "carbylamine choline chloride". Suppose to be in this book: [1]. Biophys 20:06, 17 May 2007 (UTC)

Could be an inhibitor of Acetylcholine esterase.Biophys 20:11, 17 May 2007 (UTC)

The closest I could found was "Phenyl-carbylamine-chloride", a poison gas [2]. There is nothing about "carbylamine choline chloride" in open sources. Biophys 20:32, 17 May 2007 (UTC) See also "methyl carbylamine" (Methyl isocyanate)Biophys 20:51, 17 May 2007 (UTC)

I think it better that this reference stays vague for obvious reasons. Thank your for correcting the article reference W. Frank 13:55, 18 May 2007 (UTC)

I will work more with this article.Biophys 14:20, 18 May 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Gansakhurdia poisoning - is original research

I would like to note that Biophys linking of Gamsakhurdia death to poisoning is original research. Anyone interested could look into Gamsakhurdia article in Wikipedia. Vlad fedorov 05:24, 20 May 2007 (UTC)

First, I did not tell that Gamsakurdia died from poisoning. Second, I included reference in the article:

Ken Alibek and S. Handelman. Biohazard: The Chilling True Story of the Largest Covert Biological Weapons Program in the World - Told from Inside by the Man Who Ran it. 1999. Delta (2000) ISBN 0-385-33496-6. Please read it.

Wikis including WP are not reliable source according to WP:SOURCEBiophys 06:24, 20 May 2007 (UTC)

Your suggested book is a conspiracy theory garbage written by defecting man who aspires to earn money. Moreover, nothing there is said about Gamsakhurdia. ken Alibek immigrated to the US long before civil war in Gerogia. Besides, Ken Alibek is not a Georgian. So his claims are the same like those of Jon Micai Pacepa, who defected in 1978 but claims to know all secrets of 1990-ies.

You see when people immigrate to the US they need a lot of money. Ken Alibek had written these allegations to earn monies. Quite simple story. The same happened with Mitrokhni archives, Lunin - all of them defectors who were earning money by publishing their unsupported allegations. Vlad fedorov 08:43, 20 May 2007 (UTC)

This book is the best possible type of source for Wikipedia according to WP:SOURCE, which is the only criterion here. This is a reliable secondary scholarly source.Biophys 18:44, 20 May 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Proposed name change

I propose:

1. Moving the name of this article to Poison laboratories of the Soviet secret services
2. Subsequently changing the lede to:
   "{{TOCleft}}The best known '''Poison laboratories of the Soviet secret services''' were known as '''Laboratory 1''', '''Laboratory 12''' and "'''The Chamber'''". These were [[covert]] [[poison]] research and development facilities of the various [[Chronology of Soviet secret police agencies|Soviet secret police agencies]]. "

since I presume that not all of the laboratories mentioned in the article remained in the same physical building throughout.

Does anyone object? W. Frank 13:41, 20 May 2007 (UTC)

Please do not rename it right now. Allow me to do more research. It is usually described as the same laboratory which simply was renamed - in every publication. Yes, it was moved from one building to another (there are addresses), but the same laboratory can move.Biophys 14:32, 20 May 2007 (UTC)

There was also Laboratory 100 ("Special Lab 100" according to Vitaly Yurchenko [3]) mentioned sometimes. --HanzoHattori 14:21, 20 May 2007 (UTC)

He obviously means this laboratory, but "100" is possibly a mistake by journasils; I will check in books. There is interesting info here: [4] (book "Biological espionage"), but Kouzminov seem to work in a different department. Biophys 18:50, 20 May 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Yezhow (TIME 1938)

The Soviet Political Police have long been suspected of using poison in dealing with political opponents of Stalin, particularly in Asia, and revelations at the trial last week disclosed that the OGPU had a poison laboratory. It was at the disposal of former OGPU Chief Yagoda, sentenced to death, presumably is at the disposal of his successor, OGPU Chief Yezhov.

Yagoda, according to various testimony, attempted to poison Yezhov by having his own office, which his successor would occupy, sprayed with an atomized mercuric poison. Recent analysis of the urine of Yezhov was said to have proved that the poison has been partially effective and his health gravely affected. [5] --HanzoHattori 14:44, 20 May 2007 (UTC)

That is something! Could you provide more references about this lab? "Standard" version was that Yezhov sprayed himself the mercurium in his own office to implicate Yagoda. But who knows? This should be checked.Biophys 18:57, 20 May 2007 (UTC)

In any case, it's the wonderful Soviet poison intrigues - and the official statement about existance of the Cheka poison program. --HanzoHattori 22:42, 20 May 2007 (UTC)