Talk:Point Reyes Lighthouse

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[edit] Requested move

American lighthouses are named "X Light" by the Coast Guard. The problem in this case is that The Point Reyes Light, a weekly newspaper in Marin County, is named after the light. We have a partial "solution" now of putting the paper under an improper name. Best solution would be to make the lighthouse Point Reyes Light with a "for the newspaper..." and move the newspaper to Point Reyes Light (newspaper). Mangoe (talk) 14:22, 3 June 2008 (UTC)

The Coast Guard doesn't own the Point Reyes Lighthouse. The National Park Service, which has owned it since 1975, refers to the destination as "Point Reyes Lighthouse" on most online entries for visitors; when referring to the entire facility as a historic site operated by the Coast Guard, they seem to use "Point Reyes Light Station." It seems this proposed change would be suitable if the article was one of many that was being used as a directory of USCG navigational aids, but it is really about the entire facility, both historically and as a current visitor destination. I suggest leaving the title as is or changing to Point Reyes Light Station. The same standard might make sense for similar facilities around the country.--Hjal (talk) 15:34, 3 June 2008 (UTC)

I hate to have to point this out, but "Point Reyes Light" is still an active ATON (see ref). We have not labeled lights as "Lighthouse" simply because they are now to some degree owned by someone else other than the Coast Guard. Mangoe (talk) 00:15, 4 June 2008 (UTC)

Your proposal is contrary to Wikipedia:Naming conventions, which says, in part:

Generally, article naming should prefer what the greatest number of English speakers would most easily recognize, with a reasonable minimum of ambiguity, while at the same time making linking to those articles easy and second nature. This is justified by the following principle: The names of Wikipedia articles should be optimized for readers over editors, and for a general audience over specialists.

Any reader looking for the article about the newspaper they heard of or picked up in Point Reyes Station will search for "Point Reyes Light," the name on the paper, which is used by other local media when referring to it. Most readers looking for this article will search for "Point Reyes Lighthouse," the most commonly used name for it in National Park Service literature, local media, and any discussions among people of West Marin or the Bay Area.

The newspaper article should be moved to Point Reyes Light, contrary to the suggestion below. Unlike the big newspaper in NYC, the actual name of which is The New York Times, the definite article is not part of the Light's real name. In the May 1, 2008, printed edition, the nameplate, masthead, and page headers all read "Point Reyes Light" and the internal reference in the copyright notice says "the Point Reyes Light." (See Wikipedia:Naming conventions (definite and indefinite articles at beginning of name)) The overwhelming majority of newspaper articles use the formal name of the newspaper as their title, with no "The" at the front. (See List of newspapers in California for an example list.). Finally, I do not think that "prior claim" is the deciding factor; there are no trademark or copyright issues at stake here.--Hjal (talk) 16:16, 4 June 2008 (UTC)

That doesn't solve the problem, because if the "The" is to be excluded (which I also have no problem with) we have two things with the same name, if we follow established conventions. And of the two, the lighthouse is certainly the better known, notorious for the incredibly bad weather its keepers had to put up with.

What is not coming out of this is a solution. The move of the lighthouse's article is not in contravention of naming conventions; on the contrary, the conventions we have say it should be titled "Point Reyes Light". If we are to agree that the conventions about newspapers say that the paper's article also should be titled "Point Reyes Light", then we seem to have three solutions:

• Give the lighthouse the name, and hat-link it to the qualified name of the newspaper. At present, I think this makes the most sense, since the paper is named after the lighthouse.
• Give the paper the name, and hat-link it to the qualified name of the lighthouse. I think this is the least desirable alternative.
• Qualify both names and make Point Reyes Light strictly a disambig.

Comments on these? Mangoe (talk) 16:57, 4 June 2008 (UTC)

An addendum: I don't think your supposition that most people will search for "point reyes lighthouse" is well-founded. After all, the newspaper chose the name they did because it's the name of the lighthouse! Frankly, I think most people searching are going to be looking for the lighthouse, no matter what search terms they use. the PRL is a local paper that had a moment of glory some time back; the lighthouse is one of the more famous West Coast lights. Mangoe (talk) 17:01, 4 June 2008 (UTC)

What Wikipedia convention says that the article about the Point Reyes Light Station should be title "Point Reyes Light," rather than "Point Reyes Lighthouse"?--Hjal (talk) 17:39, 4 June 2008 (UTC)

See Talk:Lighthouses in the United States#Light or lighthouse? where the issue has been discussed at length. Mangoe (talk) 17:49, 4 June 2008 (UTC)

The discussion at that article has some length, but no consensus. The arguments that you make there are those of a fan or specialist—they are contrary to the Wikipedia:Naming conventions and you have vigorous opposition there. Even if there was no newspaper involved, this article should remain at "Point Reyes Lighthouse," because that is the most common usage and is the most unambiguous to the general reader. If there is a list of USCG designations for navigational aids that needs to be created, and editors agree that it should use the USCG's official style, then the links could be piped so that they appear the way you want in the list and still go to the properly named articles.--Hjal (talk) 15:29, 5 June 2008 (UTC)

Yes, I am talking as a specialist, and you know what? You should give way to the specialists! And I'm sorry, but your interpretation of the lighthouse project discussion as "lacking consensus" is inaccurate. We have consistently moved US lighthouses from "X Lighthouse" to "X Light". The only reason it isn't happening in this case without discussion is because the redirect for the newspaper is camping on the name it would be moved to.

Also, I do not accept your claims as to what is the "most common usage". The most common usage is for the lighthouse, not the paper, no matter which naming is used. The only people who are likely to even be aware of the paper are people from Marin County or its near vicinity, and people who followed the Synanon case. The lighthouse is far better known. As I seem to have to keep repeating, the paper is named after the lighthouse. Mangoe (talk) 15:55, 5 June 2008 (UTC)

I must not have made myself clear. I meant that the "most common usage" for the subject of this article is "Point Reyes Lighthouse," not "Point Reyes Light." Whether or not there was a newspaper with a similar name, I think that this article should stay with the existing name or be moved to Point Reyes Light Station, which appears to me to be its "official" name (more often than not) and is the name that is used for it in the NRHP.--Hjal (talk) 08:08, 9 June 2008 (UTC)

There is a running discrepancy between the way the NPS has referred to lights and the way the USCG has referred to them. We (in the lighthouse project) have chosen to stick with the USCG terminology for the sake of consistency. I really don't see much likelihood that the kind of wholesale renaming implied in your argument is going to gain consensus.

And I don't know that I would absolutely disagree with your assertion about which name is more common, though I would point out that a very large group-- mariners of all stripes-- would prefer "Light". However, you do not present evidence for your belief, and I would have to say that I do not think such evidence could be presented. Under the circumstances, I think consistency ranks higher as a motivation. Mangoe (talk) 03:37, 10 June 2008 (UTC)

• Some comments on our naming conventions:
  • It is generally preferred to avoid parenthetical disambiguations where possible.
  • Although most article names avoid The, actual titles include it, even titles of newspapers (compare The New York Times).

  I have no opinion on whether Light or Lighthouse or Light Station is better for the lighthouse; but Point Reyes Light and The Point Reyes Light would be disambiguated enough for our purposes (although each should have a header directing readers to the other). In general, however, we do not follow official convention against usage, and the newspaper suggests that Point Reyes Light is usage. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 18:36, 3 June 2008 (UTC)

The issue is that the lighthouse has a prior claim on the name. I'm amenable to the "The" solution, however. Mangoe (talk) 00:15, 4 June 2008 (UTC)

Adding the word "The" to one of the articles seems to be a very simple solution. Blueboar (talk) 23:56, 4 June 2008 (UTC)

It would be contrary to Wikipedia:Naming conventions (definite and indefinite articles at beginning of name) to use "The Point Reyes Light" for either article, since "The" is not part of the name of either the light station or the newspaper.--Hjal (talk) 15:29, 5 June 2008 (UTC)

Sometimes, when it is in the best interest of the project, you have to Ignore all rules. This seems like a very good situation where that policy should be invoked, and the naming conventious should be bent. In this case we have two things that have exactly the same name. At least one of them is going to have an article that does not use it's "official" name. We could disambiguate both articles by having "Point Reyes Light (newspaper)" and "Point Reyes Light (lighthouse)", but that seems convoluted when there is a simpler solution: and "The" to the newspaper, even though it isn't part of the "official" name. In fact, invoking IAR here does not completely ignore WP:NAME... In spoken English it is almost universal to refer to newspapers with the definite article (as in: "Pick me up a copy of The Point Reyes Light while you are at the store"... and while the same can probably be said for lighthouses, it is more common to refer to them without the definite article (as in: "Turn hard to starboard when you pass Point Reyes Light"). Blueboar (talk) 16:22, 5 June 2008 (UTC)

I've decided to withdraw the proposal to move the newspaper article, which leaves the current redirect open for moving the lighthouse article. Mangoe (talk) 21:08, 5 June 2008 (UTC)

The last time that I looked, the move template was still posted there. Do you intend to remove it?--Hjal (talk) 08:08, 9 June 2008 (UTC)

It's gone. Mangoe (talk) 03:37, 10 June 2008 (UTC)

Thank you. If your proposal here does not gain consensus, I will probably propose moving the newspaper article to Point Reyes Light. If this article is moved there, I will probably start a discussion at the newspaper's talk page about moving it to Point Reyes Light (newspaper) or something else that uses its real name without the "The." I will wait until this discussion is clearly finished.--Hjal (talk) 15:36, 10 June 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Other projects notified of move proposal

Since this proposal was not brought to the attention of the other three projects interested in this article, I have just done so. I saw that the Lighthouse project was previously alerted, so I did not repeat myself there.--Hjal (talk) 08:08, 9 June 2008 (UTC)

This is another example of a VERY PROMINENT lighthouse having its name changed at the whim of a small number of wiki editors who wished to arbitrarily impose a naming scheme on lighthouses in opposition to the common local name known by millions of people. My objection was spurred by the arbitrary changing the name of the Montauk Point Lighthouse to Montauk Point Light. If there is local usage by the lighthouse owner (e.g. the NPS at Point Reyes), then local usage should be recognized! Americasroof (talk) 11:47, 10 June 2008 (UTC)

Although I don't agree with this proposed move, I don't think that it is arbitrary--most projects seem to seek to standardize the articles in their area of interest. There are many lighthouses that are of less interest to local history buffs or tourists, most of which did not have WP articles until 2006 or 2007. Introducing these articles took a considerable effort and it is no surprize that the participating editors would try to agree on a common style, especially when many of the articles were based on a common source. Point Reyes and Montauk Point are probably not the only articles that should stay with the most widely known names or the with the "official" name used by NRHP rather than the shorter form used by the Coast Guard, but we should not arbitrarily standardize on the name used by the current property owners either.--Hjal (talk) 15:36, 10 June 2008 (UTC)

For what it is worth, the NRHP program name for the site is Point Reyes Light Station. And, in my experience in adding NRHP infoboxes and otherwise editing articles on sites listed in the NRHP, I find it is usually not worthwhile or helpful to insist that article names be changed to the NRHP naming system. On the other hand, I do pretty much insist that the NRHP program name for a site be the title of the NRHP infobox, and I seek to include mention of the NRHP name as an alternative name for the site in the text of the article, as in "known also as Point Reyes Light Station". Perhaps a combined Lighthouse / NRHP infobox could reflect the official US Coast Guard name for the site, and the "known also as" phrase could also include Point Reyes Light. And then the article name itself doesn't matter as much. Note, in WikiProject Lighthouse lists of lighthouses, they can use whatever consistent naming system they want to, but wikilink to whatever non-standardized name is used for each lighthouse article. doncram (talk) 16:12, 10 June 2008 (UTC)

First off even if I 100 percent disagree with calling all lighthouses light, I think the edits were done in good faith since there is a Coast Guard list. But if you are going to use the Coast Guard as the standard, the Coast Guard is inconsistent also http://www.uscg.mil/hq/g-cp/history/WEBLIGHTHOUSES/USCGLightList.html . Its intro article calls them "Light Stations" and then it proceeds to list them as "LIGHTHOUSES BY STATE OR TERRITORY" The Coast Guard is NOT THE OFFICIAL NAMING BODY in the U.S. The U.S. Board of Geographic Names is the official body and the USGS officially maps it. The USGS topo maps consistently show the name "Lighthouse." Wikipedia is really big on not being too U.S. Centric. Every other country list calls them lighthouses. The articles about them call them "lighthouse." Light is not used anywhere. There's not even a disambugation on the Light page referring to lighthouses. Americasroof (talk) 16:26, 10 June 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Common usage

Here are the results of Google searches that relate to this discussion, starting with web searches:

• "Point Reyes Lighthouse" - 25,200 hits; this article is in the top ten
• "Point Reyes Light Station" - 675 hits; this article is at the top
• "Point Reyes Light" - 16,200 hits; the newspaper's own site is the first, an article in the Point Reyes Light about the Lighthouse is the second, and the WP article about the newspaper is the third; four of the next seven are about the Lighthouse, while three are about the newspaper, including articles from the New York Times and the local daily
• "Point Reyes Light" -lighthouse -"light house" - 11,600 hits; less than 20 of the first 100 refer to the Lighthouse and, of these, about half use "Point Reyes Light Station" or "Point Reyes Light St", which is what Google found

Results of Gogle news archive searches:

• "Point Reyes Lighthouse" - 290 hits
• "Point Reyes Light Station" = 7 hits, including 1914 stories from the Washington Post
• "Point Reyes Light" - 285 hits; first ten are all about the newspaper
• "Point Reyes Light" -lighthouse -"light house" - 252 hits

--Hjal (talk) 16:09, 13 June 2008 (UTC)