Talk:Poetry slam

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[edit] . . . and one last word about "postmodern"

"Postmodern" is accurate in the wider, more culturally general definition of that term. Trouble is, "Postmodern" is also a specific genre of poetry that doesn't really have that much in common with Slam poetry. cf. thisdefintion. I know a few poets who define themselves as "postmodern," and they all either loathe the commonness of the Slam, or are jealous of its popularity -- or both. I think the term should be deleted, or some clarification made (probably just easier to delete).

--Athansor 19:26, 23 May 2007 (UTC)


[edit] "Slam poetry" vs. "Poetry slam"

I noticed that "Poetry slam" redirects to here. As the article mentions, spoken-word, performance-oriented poetry existed before the concept of the "Poetry Slam"; the term "Slam poet" and "Slam poetry" came after the Slam became an established phenomenon. I think it would be worthwhile to point out this distinction in the first paragraph or two, and perhaps again the competition section.

--Athansor 19:26, 23 May 2007 (UTC)

I definitely, definitely, definitely don't want to make this kind of change without asking, but it really makes more sense to me to have this page redirect to "Poetry slam." As mentioned briefly below, "slam poetry" is merely poetry that happens at a slam. Slam poets are poets who choose to identify themselves as competitors in slams. It is the event that is the defining element here, not a particular style of poetry identifiable as "slam poetry." Thoughts? ProfJeFF 14:46, 23 July 2007 (UTC)
I would agree that the event is what constitutes a poem as "slam poetry" or the poet as a "slam poet" rather than vice versa. As the article details, poetry performed at a slam, although frequently hip-hop influenced, is heavily varied depending on timeframe, roots, area, and the poet himself or herself. I'm not necessarily sure how to back up this argument factually, however. All I can do is speak from experience, and this is what my personal experience has reflected. Twilytgardnfaery 19:14, 23 July 2007 (UTC) 19:00, 23 July 2007 (UTC)
While I don't want to give too much credence to PSI, as the corporatization of slam is something that bothers me personally, it does support our argument that the most prominent body involved with slam is called "Poetry Slam, Incorporated" and not "Slam Poetry, Incorporated." Now, there is The Complete Idiot's Guide to Slam Poetry edited by Marc Smith and Joe Kraynak, but there is also Poetry Slam: the Competitive Art of Performance Poetry edited by Gary Glazner. I really don't want to have to do a count of how many books of what order of importance use which title, though. I'm bad at narrowing Google searches correctly, so someone can fix my methodology on this one, but Google turns up about 324,000 hits for "slam poetry" vs about 1,500,000 for "poetry slam." I'm sure those numbers can change. Offhand, however, it's looking like there is some factual support for us to lean towards "poetry slam" as the preferable primary. Please stop me from alliterating now... ProfJeFF 02:36, 27 July 2007 (UTC)
I agree with the others who've commented that "Poetry slam" would be a better title than "Slam poetry". Based on the evident consensus, I've moved the article. As a result, Slam poetry now redirects to the article at its new title. If someone thinks that "slam poetry" is a genre or subgenre, as opposed to being "merely poetry that happens at a slam" (in ProfJEFF's phrase), then an article on the genre can be written to replace the redirect. JamesMLane t c 00:29, 30 July 2007 (UTC)
Addendum: fixing redirects. There were many more links to "slam poetry" than I'd expected. I'm correcting links but my energy is flagging. Anyone who wants to help can go here and pick up the ones I didn't get to. I think I got all the ones in the namespace, though it wouldn't hurt for someone else to double-check. I don't want to change links on talk pages, user pages, etc. JamesMLane t c 02:25, 30 July 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Which words are "weasel"?

Just out of curiousity -- which words here are considered "weasel"?

Glad to see this article here. I was involved in the performance poetry scene in Chicago in the early 90s, and will add some good links when I get a chance.

--Athansor 18:59, 23 May 2007 (UTC)


[edit] [notes from Hellslam]

There was a comment at the end of the "Competitions Types" that should have been posted here.

please fill this out a little bit

Slam is not just based on the performance of the poet, but in as well its "content". its like doing something ordinary in an extraordinary way. Slam poetry penetrates deeper than the definition given. its roots go as far forward to African oral tradition.

So I added a whole lot of details, mainly about the technical workings of the slam. What I'm missing is: more information on Slam Poetry, Inc., their certification process, a link to the official spiel, the technical workings of nationals, more types of slams, more information/sources/references to the slam/academia face-off, a more explicit history of slam, a small list of major figures in slam history, comment on the 60 minutes special on slam, more external links

  • Maybe some links to slam performers and venues? Some examples (writen or audio sample, or links thereto) are in order.

Here are the two deletions I've done and my explanations

in as nuanced a performance as the performer can muster and as the material can bear - with an eye to the audience who vote on such things.

--seems to make the assumptions that slammers stop at nothing to make their performances over the top. While this may be true in a few extreme cases, I think this is too strong of a generalization.

"Critics of Slam poetry say that the quality of the performer often wins the day irrespective of the quality of the poetry. Its defenders say that this is like saying a poem printed in the finest type on the most exquisite paper will win the Pulitzer Prize for poetry."

--edited out "for poetry" -- redundant

--Dr. Spork

--I added reference to the Individual Worldwide Poetry Slam and changed the description of the National Slam to its actual name, National Poetry Slam. Also changed it to reflect the current entrant's requirement of 3-5 member teams, as opposed to the older requirement of 4 mamber teams.

--hellslam

[edit] Slam Venue List

There are hundreds of Slam venues listed with PSI (Poetry Slam Inc.) on their website alone. Any list in this article would need to be restricted to the most significant venues. That could open up a heated debate about what can be considered significant. Perhaps it might be best to leave the management such lists to PSI.

[edit] By the bye

The Sunday Times has two magazine supplements each week; one called Culture (film, media, music, performance and book reviews mainly) and one called Style (clothes, makeup, etc). Yesterday, they ran a story on the increasing popularity of Slams. It was in the Style supplement. I'm not sure exactly what this means, but it means something. Filiocht | Blarneyman 10:03, May 16, 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Bloom and politics

The contrasting quote used to state that Bloom's "anti-political" position is infact a political position is rather inaccurate to his stance. It's similiar to those silly quotes people use for absolute truth that says to say there is no truth is a truth statement. These kind of quotes are highly inaccurate. I move to take this quote off the page.

[edit] Postmodern?

while it is true that the norton anthology of postmodern poetry lists "performance poetry" as a postmodernist genre, i don't think it's appropriate to describe slam as such. for one, what little literary theory that there is justifying slam as it is practiced takes an overtly populist stance. Slam poetry is considered by most of its practitioners to be an outgrowth of an oral folk tradition. Postmodernism, in so much as it can be defined, is most definitely a reaction to modernism, and an awareness of modernism is not something that can rightly be attributed to an oral folk tradition, as it familiarity with modernism requires assimilation of a large amount of written material which is not what an oral tradition is by definition. Hence, i'm removing the word postmodern from the first sentence.

       response

You've provided a basic and problematic definition of postmodernism. Aside from the consideration of forms, slam poetry occurs in the context of postmodern culture and results directly from it. Thus, I move to readd the term postmodern. If needed I can provide a good amount of information to back up this claim. thanks. dante danti q

       response

It is an interesting and controversial claim. I would be trully excited to read your argument. Considering the formalist context associated with postmodern art and the loud claims of informalism and genre defiance from various slam poets, I think you will need to provide the backup you suggest.


response I am unsure of what you mean by formalist context, nor do I agree at all that my claim is a controversial one. grading papers and getting ready to travel to Italy is taking up my time at this moment...however, let me know what you mean by formalist context and some examples of this formalist context that postmodernism takes place in. we could say, using your terms, that postmodernism is informal and genre-loathing. let me know. DanteDanti

In favor of slam being called postmodern: 1) Postmodern art, by and large, is highly self-referential. The poet who slams, in putting a face and body and voice to the verse, makes evident the process of production. Moreover, in a slam, the audience understands that part of the conceit is to convince that audience that one's poetry is better. The rules themselves become a foregrounded part of the artistic production (as opposed to the rules of art that are necessary, but left unspoken, in more classical forms). Yes, I am aware that if this were the only criterion, "postmodern" could be applied to any poem that calls itself "poem" or "sonnet" or whatnot. Thus the need for more evidence. 2) The traditional slam, and by traditional I mean a one-night event that is NOT recorded and re-viewed, exists in a realm of indeterminacy. Whereas the written or recorded poem may be studied, interpreted at length, dissected, etc (these all being hallmarks of Modernism and prior periods), the slam itself exists only in the moment. Once it is over, the performance is but a series of memories and thereby completely subjective, not objective. Yes, a poet can perform the same words on multiple nights, but as the performance itself is integral to the work, each performance becomes a unique, not derivative, experience. 3) An agreement with DanteDanti that work produced by a postmodern culture is, whether progressive or reactionary, necessarily postmodern. ProfJeFF 18:18, 21 July 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Bloom and politics

I removed the uncited quote about Bloom's anti-political position. The quote was a bit inaccurate. Anyone gots any problems lets me know cracka. dante danti.

[edit] revert of vandal

Discuss issues before changing. thanks

[edit] hiphop

"Beginning in the mid-90s, slam poetry became more and more closely associated with the vocal delivery style found in hip-hop music, to the point that currently (2005) it is almost unheard-of for the winner of a slam to not use said style. It should also be stated that the 2005 Individual World Slam Champion, Buddy Wakefield, is not considered a "hip-hop poet", and the 2005 National Poetry Slam individual championship was shared by Anis Mojgani, another poet who doesn't generally use the "hip-hop style". At the 2006 Individual World Poetry Slam, none of the top four finalists (Jared Paul, Andrea Gibson, Joaquin Zihuatanejo, and Mighty Mike McGee) typically engage in the hip-hop lyrical style." This seems self-contradictory to me: first it says hh is used by virtuallz all slam winners, then it says that the 2005 WORLD winner and the top four in 2006 were non hh-ers.Kdammers 11:14, 20 August 2006 (UTC)

There is some conflict between traditional performance poets and hip-hop slammers who often perform with music, trying to compete with a DJ who changes the rythmn and pace of a spontanious little rehearsed rhyming delivery. True performance poetry slams will refuse to allow a poet the luxury of musical backing, fancy dress costumes, slapstick routines, or in many cases, reading from notes. Time will be limited to a strict three minutes (more or less depending on the length of the show and numbers of poets involved). (User:arthurchappell

[edit] hiphop

Kdammers--sorry, I made that edit some months back. The pre-edit article left the impression that only "hip-hop poets" succeed, but this seems contrary to fact as well as offensive to both hip hop and Slam. Hadn't checked on the talk page, so another apology, but I sharpened some "weasel words" today.Shamanic 22:07, 4 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Competition Types

The National Poetry Slam, Individual World Poetry Slam are event held by PSI as opposed to types of poetry slams. In addition to those, there exists the Youth National Poetry Slam, and ACUI National Poetry Slam. These events should be listed and described separately from competition types or genres such as Prop Slams which are simple sub-classes of poetry slam.

[edit] July 27th Edits

Those three within about a half hour of each other, making some large organizational changes, were me. I could have sworn I was signed in... ProfJeFF 01:27, 28 July 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Severe cuts including those to external links

I just went through and boldly made a huge number of changes to the page. These range from rearranging and/or renaming categories to cutting large chunks of text. I'd particularly like to address the cuts here.

As someone noted above, the external links section seemed overlarge. I eliminated all links to individual slams on the grounds that they were all, so far as I could tell, linked to from the PSI page anyway. I left .org links on the grounds that these are larger organizations and presumably less interested in self-promotion. If someone thinks they are, please go ahead and get rid of them as well. The links that made the most sense to leave are the ones that apply to poetry slams in general: the PSI link, the video on NPS, etc.

As far as the massive cuts to the body of the article: I got rid of a lot of name-dropping. Some of the organizations or slams listed didn't really justify their importance, and I couldn't track down anything justifying their inclusion in the article (I'm still wondering, for example, about leaving ISPT in there). Some of the names just weren't necessary to get across the point a section was trying to make (the list of four or five poets who don't use hip-hop style, for example), but I would support adding poets back in with discussion about the merits of particular examples (e.g. Buddy Wakefield may very well be a good example of the narrative style of delivery). I did leave some names in the paragraph about Academia, but in the case of Bloom and Infante, there is a citation backing it up, and in the case of the academic/slam poets listed, I saw them as fleshed-out examples of the point the paragraph made. As I look again, I'm not so sure about Craig Arnold.

I think the article is perhaps too cut-down at this point, but I've trimmed it back to a point where A) we can start citing information for the (still large) number of claims in there, B) cite where we get pieces of information we add from here on out, and C) have discussions over which groups/individuals really should/should not be in the article. ProfJeFF 17:12, 30 July 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Cut External Links Again

Reasoning: 1. The listserv discussion was interesting, but not particularly worthy of an external link at WP. That is to say, it was just reporting one person's (I have no idea whether "bill kennedy" is supposed to be notable) tongue-in-cheek advice about slam and copying-pasting a report of a spat between the Canadian Poet Laureate and slammers. 2. Youth Speaks Seattle Myspace page was dead. 3. Young Chicago Authors, and Youthspeaks, while admirable endeavors, are essentially local slams. Both note "Chicago area" and "SF Bay area" as their demographic. Are these more notable than any other local slam for some reason? 4. SLAM IT appears to be just another local slam. 5. LivePoets is certainly a who's who list of poets who slam, but does not necessarily give any insight into the poetry slam as an event. Perhaps someone wants to add this link to performance poetry? 6. I'm leaving GotPoetry.com as a catchall site for poetry slams (discussion amongst slammers, dates across the US, etc), the incomplete history at e-poets.net, the PSI page, and the documentary video at Google Videos.

Feel free to argue. Not trying to be a jerk here, just trimming the list to the most notable/applicable elements. ProfJeFF (talk) 18:56, 17 March 2008 (UTC)