Talk:Poet

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Poet is part of WikiProject Poetry, a WikiProject related to Poetry.
Start This article has been rated as start-Class on the quality scale.
High This article has been rated as high-importance on the importance scale.

Contents

[edit] Urgent

Can wikipedia please remove this article? It's partial, biased, uninformative, misinformed, barely literate, and appears to have been written by a child. 'Poet' requires no entry anyway. 'A poet is someone who writes poetry' is entirely sufficient, unless someone wants to write an article on the sociocultural role of the poet over the last five millennia. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Dharmabam (talk • contribs) 15:59, 25 February 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Phetote

Phetote is an anagram for The Poet. It is the name of a Performance Poet who travels the land, teaching and performing. He was born and raised in Tulsa, Oklahoma. He believes that Poets are still responsible for passing along historical and social happenings, just as the Gruits did (and still do), in many parts of Africa.

[edit] Free Verse

The sentence "English poets also invented a form of poetry called free verse" is, at worst, utterly false, and at best misleading. To the Whitman claim, one could say the Jules Laforgue was doing unmetered poetry at the same time. Aside from that, the only claim I can think of for the English inventing free verse is Smart's Jubilate Agno, but that wasn't published until the 1940's. And the term "free verse" is itself a just a translation of the French "vers libre". Corbmobile

For that matter, Hebrew-language poets were writing unmetered poetry (e.g., the Psalms) over 2000 years before Whitman. Bruce Tindall 21:41, 19 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Other categories of poets

Why no hungarian or romanian poets? Do u really think these countries don't exist?????????? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 85.178.95.78 (talk) 7 Dec 2005

[edit] List order

When names are listed in long lists in alphabetical order, it would be easier to find what you were looking for if the names were formatted as Last, First Middle. In fact, I think this is true of all alphabetical--Cromwellt|Talk 00:29, 18 March 2006 (UTC) lists (the text should be displayed in the order that the alphabetizing was done). If anyone else has an opinion please post is here. If the overall consensis is for the L,FM syntax, I'll change the lists accordingly as I see them. Otherwise the current system is good enough for me as well. Thanks. Rlee0001 22:18 Jul 25, 2002 (PDT)

All names in the Wikipedia are in the format as they appear on this page. If you change them all to L,FM you'll have to either REDIRECT every name in the 'pedia, or else give every name on this page an alias. -- Zoe

The idea was just to do something like Frost, Robert. A small VB program can be written to do the conversion on the clipboard directly. But like I said, its fine either way. I'm not here to step on toes. It was just a suggestions. I'd be more then willing to do the work if everyone thought it was in the pedia's best interests. Rlee0001 23:32 Jul 25, 2002 (PDT)

I don't think L,FM is used anywhere else on the 'pedia, and I say good riddance to it. --Brion VIBBER

Well then how about if we start alphabetizing by first name? The idea of alphabetizing is to allow the human eye to quickly scan a long list of varied strings and jump directly to the desired string. My original problem with the current house style is that the Last name column doesn't line up due to the fact that the first names are of varied lengths. Is the position of the last names are staggered the human eye can't scan through the list. We might as well not be alphabetizing at all. Don't get me wrong, I'll follow the current standard of practice. As I mentioned before, its fine by me either way, but I thought it was worth bring up anyways. Rlee0001 00:33 Jul 26, 2002 (PDT)

Followup: Does nobody have a response?

On your last suggestion - alphabetizing by first name:
  • That is not a common practice and I don't think it is a good idea.
On your first suggestion - changing all lists to Last Name, First Name:
  • I do not agree that most people have a problem finding a name when the list is sorted First Name Last Name. We have tables of contents on nearly all the lists (and many of these have compact tocs, which display the alphabet horizontally) which means you can jump straight down to the first letter of the surname immediately, and the sublist cuts down the number of entries you have to read considerably (on some of our larger lists, we even have tocs for the first two letters of the name). Once there, I think only a small number of people would be slowed down by having to read the last name. You obviously think otherwise.
  • What about non-English names like Mao Zedong, where his family name is actually Mao, and he is listed under the Ms. Do you list him as Mao, Zedong? People never call him Zedong Mao. Since his first name and last name are reversed in this situation, the order you suggest adds confusion. A perfect example is Lu Xun on Wikiquote begin listed as Xun, Lu on the List of people by name, even though Lu is his family name. And listed under the Xs instead of the Ls.
  • Are we going to list Arc, Joan of, gjkdgnshmedfbvshmedfvasbnf rd,ynzkltgkljhrkjtghreskdltgelr;gktrgo;lhjre;dlzyjyjyjyjyjyjtl; ek;qhnjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjsuidsuidsuidsuidsuidsuidsuidsuidsuidsuidsuidsuidsuidsuidsuidsuidsuidsuidsuidsuidsuidsuidsuidsuidsuidsuidsuidsuidsuidsuidsuidsuidsuidsuidsuidsuidsuidsuidsuidsuidsuidsuidsuidsuidsuidsuidsuidsuidsuidsuidsuidsuidsuidsuidsuidsuidsuidsuidsuidsuidsuidsuidsuidsuidsuidsuidsuidsuidsuidsuidsuidsuidsuidsuidsuidsuidsuidsuidsuidsuidsuidsuidsuidsuidsuidsuidsuidsuidsuidl;l;l;l;l;l;l;l;l;l;l;l;l;l;fmnkfmnkfmnkfmnkfmnkfmnkfmnkfmnkfmnkfmnkfmnkrjerjerjerjerjerjerjerjerjerjerjerjerjerjerjerjerjerjerjerjerjerjerjerjerjerjerjerjerjerjerjerjerjerjerjerjerjerjerjerjerjerjerjerjerjerjerjerjerjerjerjerjerjerjerjerjerjerjerjerjerjerjerjerjerjerjerjerjerjerjerjerjerjerjerjerjerjerjerjerjerjerjerjerjerjerjerjerjerjerjerjerjerjerjerjerjerjerjerjerjerjerjerjerjerjerjerjetfgbtfgbtfgbtfgbtfgbeven though everyone knows her as Joan and she would be listed under the Js? Many other people have names with of in them. This again adds confusion.
  • The whole concept of accidental links is broken here, although it could be argued that that only applies to prose and not lists.
  • I am fairly sure I have seen this discussion (except a much longer one) somewhere on meta already, I just can't find where (if anyone can, please post a link). My memory is not perfect, but on that page I don't think a consensus was reached to change to a new format.
  • We are talking about a lot of lists, hundreds in fact, although the number is not really important, it just shows that hundreds of people have not been motivated enough to change it so far on any lists, and hence have implicitly shown they are in favor of the current format. This point is possibly debatable as maybe people just haven't thought of it before, however some people, as shown above (Zoe and Brion) have and like the current format. If you want to organize a vote for it somewhere other than here (since it affects a lot of people on the English Wikipedia), be my guest, but I doubt very much you will get a majority agreeing to Last Name, First Name as a general rule. Nanobug 15:19, 3 Oct 2003 (UTC)

Woah. A lot of women there. Er....Byron?! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 87.254.81.209 (talk) 09:00, 18 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Only a list

On a different note, this page is currently nothing more than a list of poets, so I think it should be named that. I'm sure there's more to write about poets than just listing them. Jeronimo 23:44 Jul 25, 2002 (PDT)

Moved list, replaced with a definition to encourage stub development. --mav
Looks like the list got alphabetized by last name anyway. Sigh. --Zoe
It was to begin with. Check the history. :o) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Rlee0001 (talk • contribs) on 26 July 2002

[edit] Another list of poets

The Wiki List of Canadian Poets which exists , does not show up when I added the name to the List of Poets on this page?? WayneRay 14:00, 25 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Must have been a glitch. It's there now. --Cromwellt|Talk 00:29, 18 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] The very best English-language poets

Why are Keats, Shelley, Blake, and Milton not included in the list of poets who are among the best in the English language? Whitman is a good poet, but he does not stand up to those four. T.S. Eliot is also a wonderful poet but not as brilliant as they. Rintrah 06:28, 17 March 2006 (UTC)

Good points. I think Whitman was included as one of the best (certainly one of the best-known) poets from the United States, and because he was very influential in the history of modern poetry. I also think the list here leaves out many wonderful, incredible poets because they are trying to keep it extremely short (which is why it says "very best" and "often considered"). What about Pope? In my opinion, he's better than Blake, but I would say that both are among the very best. What about Coleridge? What about Hawthorne? Poe? Dickinson? Instead of throwing all these names in (and many more), let's keep the list extremely short, and make sure it lists a few poets that we all pretty much agree are among the very best. If people want to read a list of names that is any longer, they can go to the appropriate list. If you feel very strongly about this, I would recommend replacing one of the poets listed with one of the ones you listed, but I wouldn't recommend just adding those names or replacing all four with your four, since it is extremely debatable (and personal) which are the absolute top. --Cromwellt|Talk 00:29, 18 March 2006 (UTC)
I agree that Whitman should not be included. With T.S. Eliot we already have one American on the list of four which seems a fair representation considering the amount of time English has been spoken (and versified) in the U.S.. I am going to replace him with Chaucer to try and create a more historically aware list: with Chaucer, Shakespeare, Wordsworth and Eliot we have a very rough documentation of the development of English poetry from Middle English, through the Renaissance, Romanticism and Modernism. Moreover it seems quite preposterous to leave the poet who wrote the earliest recognisable English verse. Personally I think we need someone from the C19th but if the list must be as short as possible then I'll leave it. Stephen 00:58, 29 March 2006 (UTC)
Wordsworth already comes from the 19th century. Byron, Blake, Keats, Tennyson, Browning, and so on, are names that could be added from the 19th century. I would rather Milton be added, however, for the enimence of his poetry. Rintrah 03:05, 20 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Removed sentences

I removed these sentences:

"Some may speculate that this is so because ordinary middle-class people aspire to increase or maintain their social standing, whereas the aristocracy become involved in politics and power. But on the other hand, one can think of many more effective ways than writing poems to increase social standing."

The reader is unlikely to hold that speculation. So raising it and refuting it is unnecessary; it only fills space. "Some may" shows the weakness of it anyway. Rintrah 09:18, 18 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Life of a Poet

The section "Life of a Poet" needs to be rewritten. It seems to say little more than poets are middle class, alienated, probably deviant, probably cannot live off the profession, have some connection to the people, and are usually supported by an institution (a patron). The second paragraph illustrates the exceptional circumstances of a few poets but says very little about others, except with vague generalisation.

It says little of the lifestyle of a poet; nothing about the kind of patrons poets had in the past; and little about how political circumstances, social circumstancse, and commerce influenced poets' lives. There is also no detail on how poets interacted with one another.

Saying poets are middle class, weird, and often not well financially supported is hardly informative. The information in this section seems inaccurate; e.g. alienation because of the poet's deviant traits is an important feature of the poet's life. The extremity of Pound and Eliot is not representative of poets generally.

"poets may achieve a kind of alternative aristocracy" is also quite vague.

Rintrah 09:48, 18 March 2006 (UTC)

Oh no. I came BACK to this article because of the very section you are describing as vague! I was particularly interested in the bit about poets typically being middle class; I was also annoyed that it did not go into detail on this point, so my coming back was in the hope of the article's having expanded, not contracted. Thanks! But wait, I am being a bit unfair. You did rightly suggest that more specific aspects, such as relations of poets to one another and to patrons, were not gone into. Someone else must have slashed what was formerly a decent beginning of an article into its now unrecognizable blandness. 121.73.26.57 08:00, 21 June 2007 (UTC)

[edit] General Plea

Can someone make this article more interesting?!

In its present state it seems like something written by a bored student. Not once is Shakespeare's name mentioned, despite his enormous influence on poetry. Other than free verse, no other type of poetry is mentioned. The introduction contains a rather uninteresting speculation of the poetic canon, without any reference to its defintion. Finally, the only insight rendered to the reader is a list of stereotypes, which do not rely heavily on research, of typical poets.

For all these reasons, reading this article makes me bored. Rintrah 15:08, 22 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] more aspects of the poet ???

Can someone expand this article to include the role of poets in society (which is why I went to read it)? In Celtic traditions, for example, the poet had the power of words, and words could either aid and support the king with praise poetry, or, if he was a bad ruler, could remove him from power with the use of satire. I.e., poet as social commentator ... perhaps even the relation of idiot or royal fool to poet in regards to who is priviledge to comment on society with impunity. Some of these ideas may be more literary or archetypal ideas of poets, but I'm writing a paper and some info on these aspects would be quite helpful. I'm thinking of roles of such people in Shakespeare plays and the like.

--71.243.4.69 19:52, 8 July 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Merged with Poetry

Does anyone else think this article ought to be merged with poetry? It is rather pointless as is, and ridiculously biased towards American poetry. Algabal 19:41, 10 March 2007 (UTC)

I agree. Lelkesa 14:44, 3 April 2007 (UTC)
At present, there is little worth saving here, so I don't know what a merger would accomplish. At some point, someone should try to do something with this article - there is a lot of material on poets individually, their relationship with their art and with the broader culture, etc. But if someone takes it on, I'd recommend they just replace this one wholesale. A Musing (formerly Sam) 14:58, 3 April 2007 (UTC)
I don't think they should be merged - they're two separate topics.


[edit] Interwiki Link

The link to the Polish (I think? "polski" pl.wikipedia.org) article is wrong, it sends you to the article on lyrical poetry. Can someone fix that? I don't speak any Polish I just know because I was adding interwiki links to the newly translated Spanish version and I noticed they had it linked to "Lyrical poetry" which I recognized in Spanish and French. Thanks!

[edit] Jim Morrison

This article is pretty small.

Plus, it only mentions classical poets.

What about acid poets, or people like Jim Morrison or Don Van Vliet AKA Captain Beefheart? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 144.134.241.115 (talk) 13:10, 3 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] NPOV

It seems to me that this article has issues with having a neutral point of view. Literary geniuses? Profound? I like a few of these poets, but what if somebody absolutely despieses their work? --Kannie | talk 20:01, 6 January 2008 (UTC)

I agree that some sentences might read like a praise of the poets rather than merely a list of them. Puceron (talk) 00:13, 23 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] How many poets do we want?

Various people have started adding every poet they can think of to each language entry. Since this could obviously go on for every, resulting in a completely unwieldy page I suggest putting a top limit of the number of poets per language, with any more going to a separate page. How about five as a limit? DJ Clayworth (talk) 19:23, 19 March 2008 (UTC)