Talk:Plymouth College

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I have spruced up the page as it were to make it look more professional and basically not just some words on a page. I have kept the original infomation and added more, all of which is correct. Oswald Eldridge.

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1 Fair use rationale for Image:Ply col logo.jpg
2 Fair use rationale for Image:SDA logo.gif
3 Category Plymouth
4 School colours
5 Former pupils
6 School Descripion - Public School or not
7 Citations
8 School numbers
9 translation
10 Fees

[edit] Fair use rationale for Image:Ply col logo.jpg

Image:Ply col logo.jpg is being used on this article. I notice the image page specifies that the image is being used under fair use but there is no explanation or rationale as to why its use in this Wikipedia article constitutes fair use. In addition to the boilerplate fair use template, you must also write out on the image description page a specific explanation or rationale for why using this image in each article is consistent with fair use.

Please go to the image description page and edit it to include a fair use rationale. Using one of the templates at Wikipedia:Fair use rationale guideline is an easy way to insure that your image is in compliance with Wikipedia policy, but remember that you must complete the template. Do not simply insert a blank template on an image page.

If there is other other fair use media, consider checking that you have specified the fair use rationale on the other images used on this page. Note that any fair use images uploaded after 4 May, 2006, and lacking such an explanation will be deleted one week after they have been uploaded, as described on criteria for speedy deletion. If you have any questions please ask them at the Media copyright questions page. Thank you.BetacommandBot 08:36, 6 June 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Fair use rationale for Image:SDA logo.gif

Image:SDA logo.gif is being used on this article. I notice the image page specifies that the image is being used under fair use but there is no explanation or rationale as to why its use in this Wikipedia article constitutes fair use. In addition to the boilerplate fair use template, you must also write out on the image description page a specific explanation or rationale for why using this image in each article is consistent with fair use.

[edit] Category Plymouth

This is the current description on the Category: Plymouth page

'This is a category for articles related to Plymouth.'

The category page includes: Plymouth Argyle F.C., Air Southwest, Derriford Hospital (which must have some private element, even if only the cleaners), several railway stations, Drake's Island which I think is privately owned, Drake Circus Shopping Centre, Plymouth Gin Distillery, The Herald, King Crimson Live at Plymouth Guildhall (which I assume wasn't a charity event), Plymouth Pavilions, etc., etc.

Just to indicate my POV, I tend to think of Plymouth College as somewhere where rich kids go when they can't pass exams. That said, under 'articles related to Plymouth', this article qualifies. Two of us keep restoring this category and someone, possible a sock of Whiteworks who can't bothered to sign in any more (given pattern of edits in similar areas) or possibly not, keeps removing it with the justification that having it on a category page is advertising, when the article exists anyway, and so is in itself advertising if it is at all. I will replace the category one more time and then I will desist as I don't want to edit war and really can't be bothered myself with this article.

Also as an aside the IP user has added a reference (currently reference 3) to Tom Brown's Universe and page numbers, but no actual reference in the article. I must assume this is a good faith edit and not sarcasm, but I still don't know what it is supposed to signify. I will not remove it but raise it as a question here. Stevebritgimp (talk) 15:19, 20 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] School colours

There are 4 houses, but only 3 colours. Snowman (talk) 19:10, 7 March 2008 (UTC)

Very true, but is that odd? Incidentally, there were six houses when I was there. What happened to Thompsons (my old house) and whatever the other one was called? -- Necrothesp (talk) 15:36, 8 March 2008 (UTC)

The colours only mattered on lower school cap badges and there were other colour combinations in a house context eg chaytors purple and dales yellow.

Do the houses have colours for sports competitions? Snowman (talk) 15:15, 12 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Former pupils

Does anyone else think that the list of Notable OPMs is a huge embarrassment and should be severely trimmed down or deleted altogether. Three quarters of them are very unremarkable and sadly have no place in an entry like this. Gingernut 11 3 08 —Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.14.82.223 (talk) 20:54, 11 March 2008 (UTC)

Embarrassment to who? Snowman (talk) 23:14, 11 March 2008 (UTC)

82.14.82.223, identifying himself as "Gingernut", has a clear conflict of interest with regard to this article, as shown by the edit summaries to these deletions he's made: [1], [2] and [3]. I've advised him on his talk page to exercise great caution when editing here in future. —SMALL JIM 12:14, 12 March 2008 (UTC)

This is an encyclopedia and should be a concise and reliable description of its subject. A lot of the material i have deleted has been wrong highly selective and giving a distorting affect. Some of the reverts indicate a peculiar interest in pretentious cumbersome and irrelevant material which does neither the subject nor wikipedia justice.Gimgernut 12 3 08 if smalljim and snowman etc are prepared to identify themselves and their local or specific interest I am happy to do the same. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.14.82.223 (talk) 20:19, 12 March 2008 (UTC)

I'm not saying that every edit you've made to Wikipedia is faulty - for instance you've done a good job of cleaning up some of the baroque excesses added by other editors that no-one else could face doing. But, as I've said before, if you intend to stay around you'd do well to spend some time reading up on Wikipedia's policies and guidelines so you know what is and isn't acceptable - it gets a little tiring having to keep telling you what is good practice here and what isn't. By the way why don't you create an account for yourself? I don't know if User:Gingernut is available, but if not something similar would be. —SMALL JIM 10:33, 13 March 2008 (UTC) This personal message left here rather than on user's Talk page because of his dynamic IP address.

It appears to be a static IP address (for several days anyway). Can it be identified and an identifying banner put on the talk page of the IP address? Snowman (talk) 10:49, 13 March 2008 (UTC)

I have restored the list of OPMs. The policy of the deleter appears to have been to delete anyone who doesn't yet have an article; deleting redlinks is not Wikipedia policy if they are likely to turn into bluelinks in the future and most if not all of these people deserve to have articles written about them. -- Necrothesp (talk) 13:43, 13 March 2008 (UTC)

Can someone explain the meritocracy or notoriety here? The missing ones have no particular status if no one can devise even a short page of their own. As to the ephemeral rugby player/coaches, it would be easy to add several hundred other with more staring roles in the game down a century and a half. the list has to hold some standard or the bulk of the original list are effectively being damned with feint praise and the list gets back to making the school look as if it is trying too hard to make too much of too little. Gingernut 13 3 08

Among the people you have deleted are four knights, including two permanent secretaries and a general, and the dean of one of the most important Anglican cathedrals in the world! And you claim they have no particular status? How on earth would you define "status" then? Added to which, you obviously don't quite understand Wikipedia. It's an ongoing project. Nobody has written a page about tham yet. When I initially wrote the list there were only one or two people on the whole list who had bluelinks; now enough do for a separate OPMs category. That's how Wikipedia works - it grows! In addition, although I am an OPM I am not "trying to make too much of too little". I have written similar lists for a number of other schools. -- Necrothesp (talk) 13:57, 13 March 2008 (UTC)

I don't want you to wholly blame the IP for deleting those redlinked OPMs, Necrothesp. I did the original deletion - with an uncannily accurate edit summary! I do wish the IP hadn't immediately undone your restoration though: he is far too heavy on the delete button.
Why did I prune the list? Well, after copyediting the article, I felt that the long list rather overbalanced it, and we don't need to include every potentially notable person who's been to the school, do we? - certainly not once the list gets past a certain size, I think. Anyway, there's a degree of personal preference there: I've no objection to you restoring the redlinks. Indeed later examination of some of the schools in the list at Headmasters' and Headmistresses' Conference shows similar lists of alumni - but maybe you added those too :-)
As an aside, I must be one of the few uninvolved editors here: I'd not even heard of the school previously. —SMALL JIM 18:34, 13 March 2008 (UTC)

I did add many of them, since I do think it's interesting to know who attended a particular school. If the list gets too long and threatens to unbalance the article then it can always be removed to a separate article. -- Necrothesp (talk) 18:37, 13 March 2008 (UTC)

Yup, sounds like a good idea. —SMALL JIM 18:46, 13 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] School Descripion - Public School or not

Interesting to see the snobbish and provincial reaction this has provoked. Surely the school should be described firstly as what it is and secondly what it perceives itself to be. I cannot see how this school has ever ranked as a 'public school' even when that title was defined by statute and later fell into more relaxed and esoteric usage.It has only ever been a small underfunded unendowed often floundering provincial private school of no status and doing little more than providing an alternative to council maintained grammar schools.predictably it was one of the first to revert to government constraints by volunteering itself into becoming a Direct Grant Grammar School for most of the post war years and only reluctantly reverted to full independent status when the grant was withdrawn. It does together with hundreds of other minor schools and some of the real former proper public schools have a headmaster who is a member of the Headmaster and Headmistresses Conference which lends a certain respectability but not the title public school because as will be seen from that organisations own on and offline public documents its member schools are 'Independent Secondary Schools'. I read in the editing history that the present head of plymouth College takes the present conventional view that plymouth College is an 'Independent School'. Why can't \it be left at that? The entry refers to the school as it is not as to how some terribly nice old duffers would like it to have been or still be. Colsonstream —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.149.106.223 (talk) 17:22, 14 March 2008 (UTC)

I'm sorry to have to say this – editors here are supposed to assume good faith, especially to new users – but your edit and the above rant raises questions of sock puppetry. —SMALL JIM 17:50, 14 March 2008 (UTC)

Agreed. Sad that an editor feels the need to insult the school and its former pupils. The snobbery seems to be all his own. Incidentally, Plymouth College described itself as a "public school" from its creation and all the heads of the former statutory public schools are members of the HMC, which was previously limited to 200 members (not "hundreds" and all relatively large and prominent schools, not small "private schools") and of which the head of Plymouth College has always been a member. -- Necrothesp (talk) 18:56, 14 March 2008 (UTC)

Thanks for the moral support. The odd thing was that this time he just removed the link, which I had earlier changed to Independent school (UK) because it seemed to describe this school perfectly. Well it does mention "public school" in the second sentence - perhaps that's what set him off… —SMALL JIM 19:51, 14 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Citations

As to the citation following the notice relating to charitable status, this has been discussed in the national press for many months and has been a concern to governors of all independent schools for the last few years. if you need a reference there is a short report in todays Independent newspaper, but the issue is old hat and vital. Or are you saying that there needs to be evidence of PMCs involvement in the community and with the poor? The instances and examples are legion not least the use of the pool the various halls etc. Gingernut 12 3 08 —Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.14.82.223 (talk) 20:24, 12 March 2008 (UTC)

The request asks for citations for both the above. Since you know what the sources are, why not read Wikipedia:Citing sources and have a go at citing them yourself? Getting the citation perfectly right isn't important - someone will fix it if necessary. —SMALL JIM 10:33, 13 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] School numbers

As to reference to school numbers in the side panel this is all to pot because the reference to the prep school just below does not indicate its numbers currently in excess of 300 so why not separate the ages with numbers or bring the total up to 950. you see what I mean' And as to the school coat of arms, the one on the wiki page is the one granted by the College of Arms but as can be seen from the school's web pages the powers that be have changed it to a bizarre 1960s squared off version on a grey background. I do approve the trimming down of the notable OPMs list but it may still need careful thought. Like Plymouth City the school still has a yearning to oversell the mediocre. But for the time being without a good deal of thought it may be the best shot. Gingernut 12 3 08

[edit] translation

The school motto and school song are on the page in Latin. Could the meaning of these in English be appended? Snowman (talk) 15:13, 12 March 2008 (UTC)

The last translation into English I saw was such a pretentious and horribly snobbish text that it is probably best left as it is. Gingernut

[edit] Fees

i see that several other independent secondary schools on the HMC list with wiki pages are candid enough to set out the day and boarding fees in either the side panel or the text of the school's wiki entry.....eg rugby....perhaps that could happen here to give those surfers looking at far west country options an idea of how good or bad they are? Gingernut —Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.14.82.223 (talk) 21:30, 12 March 2008 (UTC)