Talk:Pliny the Elder

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Contents

[edit] Latin

A translation of the Latin phrases would be nice for those that do not read Latin....

nec dubitamus multa esse quae et nos praeterierint; homines enim sumus et occupati officiis
Nor do we doubt that there are many things that have escaped us also; for we are but human and beset with duties
I think we should include the full quote, which has a certain charm for wikipedians (since this is the man who wrote the "first encyclopedia"):
nec dubitamus multa esse quae et nos praeterierint; homines enim sumus et occupati officiis, subsicivisque temporibus ista curamus, id est nocturnis (Praef. 18)
Nor do we doubt that there are many things that have escaped us also; for we are but human and beset with duties, and we pursue this sort of interest in our spare moments, that is at night
plenum ingenni pudoris fateri per quos profeceris
a pleasant thing and one that shows an honourable modesty, to own up to those who were the means of one's achievements
These translations were taken from Loeb and they are a bit awkward. If someone would like to clean them up and/or add them to the article, please do. Jebba 01:39, 24 July 2005 (UTC)


[edit] Scientist?

Pliny the Elder was not a scientist, the concept of experimentation did not occur until the 17th century with Roger Bacon and Robert Boyle. A scientist maybe described as a person who goes about testing hypothesis by weighing evidence and/or results of experiments, thus increasing our knowledge about the world. Most importantly, science is the continuous exploration for the truth. It is said that the ancients delayed the enlightenment because they were given too much respect, their knowledge was static (See Richard Feynman on the meaning of science). Pliny the Elder was a naturalist, what he said in Naturalis Historia was brilliant general knowledge.

Resarcher then? He appears to have been very curious about what was going on at the Vesuvio eruption MX44 21:08, 2 July 2006 (UTC)
As much as I admire Pliny (I'm the guy who put him online in Latin, and my Dog is named after him), no, not even. Pliny's principal involvement was that he was base commander of the local naval base, and was mostly interested in rescuing people, partly because it was his responsibility, partly because he knew a lot of them — he was a local landowner, these were his neighbors — and only secondarily was he curious about the workings of the eruption, etc. He might be characterized as a cultured man particularly curious about everything; but researcher not at all — absolutely no indication anywhere in his own NH nor in anything anyone said about him that he ever did more than compile the material researched or studied by others — and even less of scientist, which, with the exception of a very few top-flight Greeks (Aristotle, Theophrastus, Ptolemy, a couple of others) was not an ancient "thing". Bill 21:43, 2 July 2006 (UTC)
Hi Bill. I would disagree with you a bit if you will allow it. Bottom line: your definition of scientist is perhaps too narrow. Everything you say about science being based on experimentation is true. But then there is a second tradition, which, for lack of a better term, I would call "descriptive science." The grand founder in modern times is Linnaeus. What actually exists in nature? You can't bring it into the laboratory because THEN it is not in nature any more. Here, "experimentation" is limited to various kinds of observation. The first known scientist of this sort is Aristotle. Pliny is definitely in that tradition. Then we have Linnaeus, the big three. Nor are these NOT considered scientists today. Darwin was a scientist. What experiments did he perform? Then you've got Louis leakey and all the anthropological field workers. I know where you are coming from. I just think it is too narrow a base! At some point I will be looking at this article in that regard. Right now though I only want to address the format as requested. PS I hope you do not interpret anything I say as disrespect. I think everyone admires you for your Internet contributions, your zeal and your great heart. I put in footnotes to your site all over the place.Dave 13:01, 14 January 2007 (UTC)
Just saw this today. Dave, I yam hardly a sacred cow; and if I got offended by disagreement, I'd be even less of one, so to speak! My objection to calling Pliny a scientist lies about 25% in his not having experimented, but 75% in his never, as far as I can tell, having done more than compile the work of others. He did a tremendous job — but as an encyclopedist, not an original thinker. Not even as a systematizer. A compiler. (I hope the ghost of Pliny doesn't interpret any of this as disrespect, I think we all admire him for his encyclopedic contributions and his zeal; less sure about his great heart, and indeed, my own.) Bill (talk) 21:34, 26 December 2007 (UTC)

[edit] His Master

"He was often quoted by Pliny the Elder who called him "my Master". " http://www.roth37.it/COINS/Juba/abstract.html

I can't find where he used that exact wording, but yes, there are many citations of Juba's work in the Natural History, so it's believable. —Charles P. (Mirv) 18:12, 24 Dec 2004 (UTC)
If it is not so believable, you can say: according to Prof. G.B.Vai he called Juba II "my Master", but according to me it's inbelievable. It is also good.
Never said any such thing, that any modern person could know. It is not found in the sole surviving work of his, the Natural History; nor is he reported to have said it by any other ancient writer. Bill 21:46, 2 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Absinthe link removed

I just removed a link to "A Latin transcription and a new English translation of the chapters from the Naturalis Historia dealing with absinthe, and its therapeutic qualities with photographs of the 1481 Parma edition" because that (beautiful and informative) page is not about Pliny but about absinthe and a late medieval manuscript. There are very, very many pages on the Web that discuss some aspect of what Pliny said; if we put all of them as links here, we'd turn into a link directory (which is one of the things Wickedpedia is not). I checked that Oxygenee site was linked under absinthe: it is. Bill 17:19, 7 August 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Pliny the Elder

I am surprised that there is no mention of the modern "Pliny the Elder" beer manufactured by Russian River Brewing Co. Due to the fact that the beer is named after him, and award winning, it should at least be briefly mentioned.

[edit] Juba

Pliny mentions Juba 65 times; frequently as king, but not once as his, or anyone else's master. In fact — this is what bothered me enough to go searching — nowhere does Pliny call anyone his master. Bill 11:37, 6 April 2006 (UTC)

After adding this note, I discovered that someone else had already been struck by the statement earlier. Sure enough, it appears on Mr. Rossi's page, referenced above: it remains wrong. Bill 11:43, 6 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Unhealthy?

Quote from article:

His style betrays the unhealthy influence of Seneca.

Is this NPOV? Pliny, at least, would disagree. Seneca too, I guess. Andrew Dalby 09:15, 3 July 2006 (UTC)

Yes, Wikipedia will probably bomb this (true) statement out along with all the other "POV" stuff. It's a perfect example of how Wikipedia flattens everything out, and in so doing, loses the perspective and intelligence that makes some other encyclopedias great. It is, of course, not because Seneca would disagree with it that something is false, and a frequent judgment on Seneca is that his style and indeed psychological workings were in fact quite unhealthy (as a cursory look at his essay on mirrors in the Quaestiones Naturales will show for example). Bill 13:27, 4 July 2006 (UTC)
Oh, sure. I hold no brief for Seneca. And I wasn't 100% serious. But "unhealthy" really wants thinking about. I find Pliny's style irritating, in just the same way that I found this quoted sentence irritating, because Pliny's sentences, like this one, tend to steer the reader to a facile moral judgment. Perspective, yes: intelligence, hmm! Andrew Dalby 14:23, 4 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Outside links

Most of the outside links link to a Latin page. For an English wikipedia, I think it should link to a translation. Correct me if I'm wrong. Tcpekin 21:32, 3 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Formatting task

I finished setting this up in footnote format, added a few subheadings for access and readability, and made the quotations of one format. However I'm leaving the template on for the time because there is the question of the translations brought up under "outside links." That probably is a bit more work and would require double links, one for the Latin, one for the English. Next contributor, step up.Dave 15:35, 14 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Patent inaccuracy needs correction

In section 1.5, it says "The materials collected for this purpose filled rather less than 160 volumes in 23, when Larcius Licinus, the praetorian legate of Hispania Tarraconensis, vainly offered to purchase them for a sum equivalent to more than £3,200 (1911 estimated value) or £200,000 (2002 estimated value)." Since Pliny was born in the year 23, it seems unlikely he had finished nearly 160 volumes by the end of that year. Can someone find the actual date? Also, the amount of money offered in talents or sesterces might be more relevant than in 1911 or 2002 British Pounds. DavidSTaylor 17:02, 5 May 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Clean-up box

This article by Bill Thayer acquired the box when the format still needed considerable work. I did the work, mainly converting the notes from parenthetical to note format. Also I broke it up into subsections. I was going to take out the box but I noticed a comment that the notes ought to link to an English translation. I agreed with and agree with that. Great. But where was one to be found? I've looked high and low for it. There isn't any! Bill points out that Perseus has one now. Unfortunately for our purposes there might as well not be a Perseus. Their servers are never working and when they are no one has the time to waste sitting there waiting for the search to be conducted. You'd think they were searching all the literature in all the databases ever put online on the planet, and maybe distant planets too. They keep telling us they are going to fix it but they never do. I see Bill is putting up an old and archaically spelled translation at the U. Chicago site. Eventually the English will be able to be accessed from that site. Meanwhile I am tired of looking at this old box on an article that was cleaned up long ago when there is no immediate help for it. It does not now rate the box so I am commenting it out. Whenever the English does fully appear we can reference it then.Dave 11:01, 25 July 2007 (UTC)

[edit] QI Pop Culture Reference

Would it be noteworthy that in the UK tv show QI Alan Davis is said to think of Pliny the Elder as one of his favourite figures history and that he has been mentioned alot in the programs questions.

[edit] Nickname ?

Sorry to ask, but why is Plinius called Pliny in English ? A sort of a nickname ? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 85.176.95.36 (talk) 19:39, 26 December 2007 (UTC)

Not a nickname, just his English name. Lots of famous ancient Greeks and Romans are known by slightly different names in English: Aristotle, Plato (actually his Latin name although he was Greek), Ovid, Livy, Terence, etc. —Angr If you've written a quality article... 21:14, 26 December 2007 (UTC)

Thank you for this quick answer - so it is not a diminutive ?

Nope. —Angr If you've written a quality article... 08:03, 27 December 2007 (UTC)
It's just the customary English name of the man. Like Rome for Italian Roma, Moscow for Moskvá, Athens for Athinai, Cairo for al Qahira. Bill (talk) 09:46, 27 December 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Deletion of "See also" section, 30 Jan 08

There were four items in it; three of them were already discussed in the article and linked, and were thus pointless. The fourth item I deleted on different grounds: it was an article on winemaking, that gives details about Pliny and winemaking: Pliny wrote about so many things — are we going to link to hundreds of articles because of that? Fish, glass, melons, arthropods, mummies, comets, transvestites, money, Libya...) "See also" sections are almost always a sign of a poorly organized article; this is a classic example. Bill (talk) 20:52, 30 January 2008 (UTC)

That's fine if you have stylistic concerns about a see also section. However Pliny is a prominent figure in the world of wine and this article currently doesn't mention it at all. AgneCheese/Wine 20:57, 30 January 2008 (UTC)
Well, not exactly. From the wine end, because Pliny devotes a chunk of the NH to wine, and because Pliny is old, he is important — and, quite properly, deserves his little section in your article on wine. But from the Pliny end, wine is not terribly important to him or to the NH, and need hardly be mentioned. Again, he wrote about many, many things. It would be a different matter if we were talking about javelins, or cavalry, or encyclopaedias, since these things help define Pliny himself: he was a cavalryman, an expert on the javelin with a separate book on the subject, and of course the first encyclopedist. So though Pliny is of some importance to wine, the converse is not true.
Still, there's more than one way to skin a cat; I've edited the article in a way to sneak your cherished link in; while I wuz at it, pitching some pointless pruriencies on pessaries.

Bill (talk) 21:05, 30 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Pliny on Hydraulic Mining

I have added a new section on "recent research" which actually dates back to the 1960's, and has been fully confirmed by others. It concerns the descriptions Pliny gives of gold mining in Book XXXIII, almost certainly an eye-witness report of alluvial mining in northern Spain, where he was procurator in 74 AD. He describes many long aqueducts (100 miles long he says) feeding the mine head where the water was used to wear away the deposits and allow the material to be washed for the gold. Most of his testimony has been confirmed on the ground in Spain (at Las Medulas and also at Dolaucothi in Wales, a site unique in Britain but which shows the Roman hydraulic methods at their best. Much research remains to be done however, especially in Transylvania, the subject of another gold-rush under Trajan later in the first century. The only thing that has hindered our deeper understanding of Pliny is the reluctance of many historians to visit the places he mentions and actually see what Pliny was writing about directly. Peterlewis (talk) 21:44, 11 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] POV section

I have removed the speculative comments on Pliny and his untimely death during the Vesuvian eruption. I prefer the evidence of his nephew as being an accurate contemporaneous account. Speculation 2000 years after the event have to be very firmly based to have an credibility. Peterlewis (talk) 09:50, 3 April 2008 (UTC)