Talk:Playing rugby union

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

This article is nominated for rugby union collaboration of the fortnight. Please vote on the nomination here.

	Rugby union Portal This article is within the scope of WikiProject Rugby union. This project provides a central approach to rugby union-related subjects on Wikipedia. Please participate by editing Playing rugby union, and help us assess and improve articles to good and featured standards, or visit the project page, where you can join and view the list of open tasks.
B	This article has been rated as B-Class on the assessment scale.
Top	This article has been rated as Top-importance on the importance scale.

Data taken from rugby union article as it was too long and needed its own article.GordyB 20:09, 6 May 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Ruck clarification?

First off, excellently written article. Thanks to all who contributed. Watching the current 2007 WRC, I still have a few queries - maybe they're in the article and I missed them, but if not...

• When a player picks up the ball from the rear of a ruck, they're usually careful to have one foot in front of the ball, and one behind. Why is this? Is it simply to make the subsequent pass easier, or is there a rule about this?

No rule, it's just easier.GordyB 23:38, 23 September 2007 (UTC)

• In the opening France-Argentina game, Argentina kicked the ball into touch, it was caught by a French player (when both he and the ball were out of bounds), who passed it to a team-mate and play continued. There was no whistle or line-out. Why?

You can take a quick line-out if no opponents are in the area. This is what happened.GordyB 23:38, 23 September 2007 (UTC)

• Who can punt, and when? Could I? Like, right now?

You can punt pretty much any of the time. Off the top of my head I can't think of a situation in open play where you could not punt.GordyB 23:38, 23 September 2007 (UTC)

• Marking. What's that all about? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.27.189.69 (talk) 21:42, 23 September 2007 (UTC)

Like a fair catch in American football. You get to make an unopposed catch if you are within your 22 metre line. It's to discourage teams from attacking solely by kicking (since the defenders can defend easily by calling for the mark).GordyB 23:38, 23 September 2007 (UTC)

A slight clarification for those using American football as a comparison: in American football the catcher signals his intent to make a fair catch and once he's done so it's an offence to tackle him; in rugby (union), the catcher can't call for the fair catch until he's in the act of catching the ball, and he can be tackled while attempting to do so; it's not an unopposed catch and it's only an offence to tackle him after the ref has blown his whistle. Also, until relatively recently it was possible to call for a 'mark' outside one's 22; as I recall, this was the case during the 1987 RWC. - Jimmy Pitt (talk) 19:58, 2 January 2008 (UTC)

Thanks for clearing that up! I should mention that your American football reference went right over my head. I'm a Brit who actually used to play many years ago - as a prop. We forwards did the heavy lifting while the backs minced about and got all the glory. Ah well. Back to the WRC, now I know what's going on! 82.27.242.48 20:33, 24 September 2007 (UTC) (the unsigned above).

[edit] Ending a Game

Hi All! Great article, although there is nothing to say how the game ends. I have to explain this to my friends every time the clock hits 80 mins and the game continues. At this point in the game all kicking by the defending team stops, IIRC all penalties are still played except for ones that kill the ball. I did start to write a section on this but abandoned it as I didn't feel it explained the possibilites well enough. Games that ended in this way and are good examples of the rule in force IMO are RWC 2007 Scotland v Italy QF(?) and Canada v Japan. And the RBS Six Nations Scotland V England 2008. (in both the Scottish games Scotland were leading with Italy and England respectively within a converted Try for the win. Italy and England in both games had possession of the ball at the time the clock ran out.) If any once has links to videos of the ends of those games the rule can be seen in action very clearly. (Moncky (talk)) —Preceding comment was added at 07:53, 10 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Proposed merge of Rugby passes

The new article Rugby passes is currently written in a manner that violates WP:NOT#HOWTO. It also appears to rely far too much on direct quotation from its (book) references. Since this article doesn't appear to cover passing, I suggest merging with a considerably shortened and reworded version of the passes article. dramatic (talk) 03:59, 28 March 2008 (UTC)

I agree. Feel free to perform the merge whenever you like. – PeeJay 14:57, 28 March 2008 (UTC)

I've never been involved in rugby, and am probably not the best person to do it (I just found the article on new page patrol). dramatic (talk) 19:06, 28 March 2008 (UTC)

Agree. The article is rather inaccurate as well. You can pass the ball forward, if you are running at speed then it is hard not to. What you can't do is pass forward relative to your own body position.GordyB (talk) 15:02, 28 March 2008 (UTC)

That's simply not right. A forward pass is one that travels towards the opposition goal line. Sure, mild forward passes get missed all the time (especially in the S14), but its not legal, and every decent player should be able to pass back and run forward. Rugby League has a "momentum" law on forward passes, Rugby Union does not. -- GWO (talk)

Untrue, there is no "momentum rule" in league, the laws are actually the same. Whether a pass is forward or not is measured from the player's release. If it leaves his hands backwards but subsequently travels forwards then it is not a forward pass.GordyB (talk) 10:50, 29 March 2008 (UTC)

This video explains the laws and physics behind them better than I can. It was made by the ARU. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RgMlDy2jP9s GordyB (talk) 10:52, 29 March 2008 (UTC)

Those passes are forward. The commentary on that video even says so. If those pass had happened to cross the half way line -- making it easier for the ref to spot -- you can bet your life that the ref would give it. Just because an offence goes unspotted doesn't mean its within the Laws. The Rugby passes article is correct, and even your evidence confirms this. It also confirms that Aussie refs simply don't care about marginally forward passes, but this isn't news to anyone. The commentary talks about "Relative to the moving players" but that has absolutely no basis in the Laws of Rugby Union. -- GWO (talk)

I am sorry but you are wrong. The laws say that a pass is deemed forward if it leaves the players hands in a forward direction, if it subsequently goes forward then it is still legal. If you watch the video again then you will see that when a player is running at speed he cannot necessarily get the ball to travel backwards even if he throws the ball backwards over his head.GordyB (talk) 13:44, 30 March 2008 (UTC)

"The laws say that a pass is deemed forward if it leaves the players hands in a forward direction."

They also define what that "forward" means "towards the opposition goal line", and not "relative to the subsequent motion of the players hands" (Law 12, Definition)

"‘Forward’ means towards the opposing team’s dead ball line.".

The "relative to the hands", with respect to the Laws of Rugby Union, is simply a fiction. The "subsequently goes forward clause" is about a ball that is thrown backwards (relative to the goal line) but lands on the ground and bounces forward (relative to the goal line). Go ask anyone who's done even a basic refereeing qualification. They'll tell you what I said, and what your youtube video said -- "that's forward, but hellish hard to spot".

Incidentally, just to complete your wrongness, you were completely wrong about the Rugby League Law too... See The Laws of Rugby League [1] Section 10, Note 1

The direction of a pass is relative to the player making it and not to the actual path relative to the ground. A player running towards his opponents’ goal line may throw the ball towards a colleague who is behind him but because of the thrower’s own momentum the ball travels forward relative to the ground. This is not a forward pass as the thrower has not passed the ball forward in relation to himself.

Notice the difference? Or do you still deny there's a difference? -- GWO (talk)

There isn't a difference really. The league law is as you said but it is not called the "momentum rule" by anybody other than some commentators who ought to know better. There is even a note on the RFL's laws saying that "this is not a momentum rule". A union pass is deemed legal if you pass the ball legally and then a gust of wind takes it forward. The clause you referred to relates to issues other than merely a bounce.GordyB (talk) 10:22, 4 April 2008 (UTC)

In a nutshell, my point is that the wording of the two laws might be slightly different but they refer to much the same thing. The pass must go backwards or flat initially in both codes.GordyB (talk) 10:55, 4 April 2008 (UTC)

"The pass must go backwards or flat initially in both codes". Yes, but the Union Law says "backwards relative to the dead-ball line" and the League Law says "backwards relative to the passer, not relative to the ground". Which (the attentive reader will note) is exactly what I've consistently said, and which you disputed. Despite your assertions, that's qualitatively not the same. The fact about the wind I gladly concede. If a pass initially goes back (relative to the ground) but is blown forward (relative to the ground), that's legal. -- GWO (talk)

In practice "backwards relative to the dead ball line" is the same as "backwards relative to the passer". If the ref flagged every pass that went forwards, you wouldn't be able to pass at all when running at speed.

By the letter of the law, a scrum feed is supposed to go down the middle of the scrum, in pratice this rarely happens.GordyB (talk) 15:51, 4 April 2008 (UTC)