Talk:Plat of Zion

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[edit] Issues, questions, and suggestions

I've started this stub, motivated by curiousity and by an edit made to Stirling, Alberta. I don't know much about the subject (that's why it's a stub) so:

• I've used the terms "mormon" and "LDS" interchangably, and I know some folks don't like that. I don't know if what's here breaches some understanding that editors in this field have reached in this regard; feel free to change it to the right thing - I don't have an opinion about what is right.
• The article should list a few of the more notable (largest and earliest) cities built to the plat
• Can we get a larger copy of the original drawing? And a transcription of the text written above and below it?
• The mormon.org article I cite says there's a standard street naming scheme, but doesn't say what it is. That would make a nice addition to the article
• Are the streets aligned to magnetic north or true north?
• Is the only theologically-influenced thing about the plan the location of the temple in the center?
• The article I cite says Salt Lake City is built to the plan, but clearly it's a lot bigger than 20,000 people in one square mile - how was the plan scaled?
• That article also calls it the "plat of Zion", not the "Plat of Zion", and that's a convention I've followed here.
• It also talks about the standard sizes for lots, and about a standard setback - is this part of the original plat, or is it a later convention?

Thanks. -- Finlay McWalter | Talk 13:33, 5 December 2005 (UTC)

Thanks for creating the article. I remember discussing this with someone on a talk page some time ago. I'll try and track down which page?? I grew up in a small Mormon colony town which was originally designed on the plat system. This was true of most LDS originated communities, with some staying closer to the original plan than others. If you discount significant geographic features, like rivers and rock outcroppings, the plat system shows up in many non-Mormon colony western communities as well. The plat system was originally designed by Joseph Smith for the development of Nauvoo. See below, from your external link:

Young's city planning was influenced by Church founder Joseph Smith's city plan, known as the "plat of Zion." Joseph Smith first introduced the plat of Zion in 1833, approximately 13 years before the Latter-day Saints were driven from Nauvoo, Illinois — a thriving community of beautiful homes and prosperous farms and businesses laid out according to this plan — on the banks of the Mississippi River during the early history of the Church.

The connection with Joseph probably led to the popularity of the plan, as did its practical nature and the ease of surveying virgin territory into a grid. The street names are generally numbers -- 1st (or 100) West crossing 1st (or 100) North, as is true in Salt Lake City. Initially confusing for visitors and newcomers, people quickly come to rely on the coordinates to find any new location. For those of us that have grown up with the structure, street names become the nightmare.

I would suggest a section on Joseph Smith's design and Nauvoo, Illinois. I will see what else I can come up with. WBardwin 00:56, 6 December 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Grid system

Hmm, the current wording of the article implies that the grid system is a derivative of the plat. This really isn't true - the new town in Edinburgh, built in the 18th century along "rational" lines as part of the Scottish Enlightenment, is a grid system. And most of the hundreds of Roman military towns built around the empire were built to a grid system. -- Finlay McWalter | Talk 02:07, 6 December 2005 (UTC)

Smith didn't invent the grid system by any means, but used it as an essential part of his plat design. A grid system was also used in the US Homesteading acts to divide virgin farm grants and homesteads into managable sections. I think the essential contribution of the plat of Zion may be to modern city planning, i.e. placing important edifices at significant points on a grid and ensuring straight useful lines for transportation. WBardwin 03:30, 6 December 2005 (UTC)

That sounds more like what Thomas Holme did in Philadelphia in the 1680s.

Smith didn't invent the system - it was also used in other US settlements. His contribution was its use in new city planning. To my understanding, the exact east/west-north/south version of city planning (from the ground up) was a big push by him in standardizing city planning. In most western US towns you know which way is N/S or E/W based solely on streets. In addition, the center of the grid was the city center, not something you find in Holme's work [1]. Many believe that his push of the system, combined with Mormon western settlements, led to the adoption of the system in the majority of western US cities who use it. It is this adoption that led to modern city planning for these cities. Perhaps I have a simplified version of it all, but this is my understanding. Would it or would it not have been as widely adopted if not for him? Who knows. But he definitely had a huge affect on its adoption. It seems that it is his version of the grid system that seems to have been adopted, although that can be easily disputed. The text should probably link to other grid system examples. -Visorstuff 18:35, 3 January 2006 (UTC)

That's an awful lot of supposition and opinion for something that the article asserts as fact. I'm tagging it for citation. --Chancemichaels 16:59, 25 July 2007 (UTC)Chancemichaels

It's been more than 2 years, and no-one has provided any evidence of any of the named cities having any relationship whatever to the Plat of Zion. Simply being a grid system is not evidence at all. I'm all for this article having a list of towns and cities that do have PoZ layouts, but we need concrete reliable sources to support such claims. I've removed the unsupported cities. -- Finlay McWalter | Talk 13:19, 27 January 2008 (UTC)

The City of Zion Plat was much more than a grid system. That was just the physical manisfestation of a much grander utopian concept described in the margins of the plat. I have a copy of the text of the margins but it is not accessible to me right now. The plat described in the article was originally specific to Independence, Missouri (and never constructed as shown). The City of Zion Plat can be thought of more as a template than as a repeated plan. Cities constructed under the concept retained the grid layout but usually other metric were adjusted for local conditions, circumstances and needs. The original plan for Provo, Utah only had four one-acre lots on a block. Subsequently these had been divided up over the years and one cannot tell anymore.

As I said earlier the Plat was more of a social plan. People were to live in the city and not on the farm. This was so they could be educated and 'become one' through social, educational and religous life. The plan called for a population cap and then to settle another town in like manner in order to 'fill the whole world' in that manner.

I wrote a paper on this in college and will slow add content to the article. I am rather new to Wikipedia editing and will appreciate any advice on keeping up with Wikipedia standards.Mjtaylor100 (talk) 01:22, 5 April 2008 (UTC)