Talk:Plano Collor

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Contents

[edit] Compromise edit

My latest sets of edits are a compromise. If you have any issues, please bring it up here.--Dali-Llama 22:50, 4 September 2007 (UTC)

Accordin to Zelia: all together with opening of the economy....

"It is also possible to see with clarity that, under very difficult conditions, we promoted the equalization of the national debt --and that, together with the commercial opening, it created the basis for the implementation of the Plano Real".

Plan Collor is privatization, free trade, etc....Do provide a link to prove whta you are saying.
Ludovicapipa yes? 16:45, 5 September 2007 (UTC)
Absolutely: here and even Bresser's paper on it mentions it. The Plano Collor wanted to halt liquidity to stop inertial inflation, that's all. The Faucher text clearly mentions privatizations and free trade as part of another program called PND.--Dali-Llama 16:50, 5 September 2007 (UTC)

[edit] YOU LOOSE AGAIN!!!!!!!!!

Iam very sorry abt that -- you ARE ABSOLUTELY WRONG AGAIN!!!!!
http://www.brasilescola.com/historiab/fernando-collor.htm
Find yr self a DOCTOR!
Um dia depois de assumir a Presidência, Collor anunciou uma série de medidas que visavam reorganizar a economia nacional. Elaborado pela equipe da ministra Zélia Cardoso de Mello, o Plano Brasil Novo, mais conhecido como Plano Collor, determinou:
a extinção do cruzado novo e a volta do cruzeiro como moeda nacional;
o bloqueio, por dezoito meses, dos depósitos em contas correntes e cadernetas de poupança que ultrapassassem os 50 000 cruzados :novos;
o congelamento de preços e salários;
o fim de subsídios e incentivos fiscais;
o lançamento do Programa Nacional de Desestatização;
a extinção de vários órgãos do governo, entre eles: Instituto do Açúcar e do Álcool, Instituto Brasileiro do Café, Superintendência :do Desenvolvimento do Centro-Oeste, Departamento Nacional de Obras contra a Seca (DNOCS).

I:móveis, veículos e aviões do governo foram colocados à venda.

~:Os objetivos do plano eram: enxugar a máquina administrativa do Estado, acabar com a inflação e modernizar a economia. Sem dúvida, as medidas causaram grande impacto e afetaram a vida da população em geral, dos trabalhadores aos empresários. Porém, os resulta.....

Ludovicapipa yes? 18:03, 5 September 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Request for commet

Plan Collor is an economic plan. The subtitle "The Plan" only mentions political issues. Ludovicapipa yes? 14:06, 6 September 2007 (UTC)


[edit] Carefull with his request!

As you can see here, he agrees that Color ended hyperinflation [[1]]
"It is correct (and indeed sourced) to say that Collor ended hyperinflation, but even then his inflation rates were no picnic and most of his reforms failed (see here)."
But later he deleted the word "END" (of hyperinflation). Ludovicapipa yes? 14:37, 6 September 2007 (UTC)

[edit] List of points of controversy

I will need you guys to make a list of the points of controversy in this page. So far I don’t really understand what points you guys disagree on and what are your different views on the subject. Making this list is actually pretty easy and helpful. Sparks1979 17:29, 6 September 2007 (UTC)

As you can see, under the subtitle "The Plan" he only mentions political facts (all relate dto corruption, impeachment, etc, and from MY source, SCIELO source). Plan Collor is an economic Plan, not political one. Pln collor has an extensive macroeconomic agenda (free trade, privatization, tec modernization), whihc is not published.
My edition: [2]
Ludovicapipa yes? 17:41, 6 September 2007 (UTC)

[edit] POV

He recently deleted the word "END" (of hyperinflation). It is widely known (and even he agreed) that Collor ended hyperinflation. Ludovicapipa yes? 17:43, 6 September 2007 (UTC)
Here you can see citations concerning his agreemnt on hyperinflation, later saying the contrary... Ludovicapipa yes? 17:54, 6 September 2007 (UTC)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:KieferSkunk#Wikipedia:Wikiquette_alerts.23Ludovicapipa:_Lots_of_NPA_and_CIVIL_issues
Ludovicapipa yes? 17:54, 6 September 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Carefull with his request!

As you can see here, he agrees that Color ended hyperinflation [[3]]
"It is correct (and indeed sourced) to say that Collor ended hyperinflation, but even then his inflation rates were no picnic and most of his reforms failed (see here)."
But later he deleted the word "END" (of hyperinflation). Ludovicapipa yes? 14:37, 6 September 2007 (UTC)
Kiefer, if you'd like me to reply to any of these issues here, I will. Otherwise, I'm addressing them on their respective talk pages. Thanks!--Dali-Llama 15:35, 6 September 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Another link

"Well, we already established she didn't end hyperinflation in Fernando Collor de Mello, so we can nix that."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Z%C3%A9lia_Cardoso_de_Mello Ludovicapipa yes? 15:15, 6 September 2007 (UTC)

[edit] List

Ok, so if I understood you correctly, there are two points of controversy in this article:

1- Ludovicapipa wants more emphasis to economical aspects of the plan.

2- Ludovicapipa understands the Collor plan ended hyperinflation, while Dali-Llama understands the Collor plan did not end hyperinflation. The sources you guys cite to defend your views are in another talk page, Collor’s.

I will take a look at the sources and will most a third opinion here afterwards. Sparks1979 19:57, 6 September 2007 (UTC)

1) I'm okay with that--as long as the sources are reliable and there are no WP:SYN or WP:OR issues.
2) Absolutely. Fortunately, her sources are two opinion pieces (including one which doesn't even mention inflation), so since the inflation rate data is so black and white, I don't see how she's gonna win that argument.--Dali-Llama 13:26, 7 September 2007 (UTC)

[edit] End of hyperinflation

Citations:
1.[4]
2.[5]
My text is aimed at describing Collor´s and Plan Collor´s legacy: facts, history as clear as possible.
Ludovicapipa yes? 13:20, 7 September 2007 (UTC)
Two opinions? What do you mean?
[http://clipping.planejamento.gov.br/Noticias.asp?NOTCod=345836
It is a point to remember: when I cited Faucher (remember? Scielo) he several times describes how the lack of political support obstructed Collor´s economic agenda(a); I also cited Bresser saying the same thing(see Collor´s talk page). This drives me to describe a situation of a first real end of hyperinf., then the return of it (although not as intense or as high), and then Plan Real which embraced his agenda and enabled its successe. That´s what Faucher, Bresser, Zelia are saying --Iam trying to describe these facts. This new source above seems to say the samen thing. Ludovicapipa yes? 13:35, 7 September 2007 (UTC)
Quote:
"Menos de um ano depois, a hiperinflação estava de volta.Mas o governo Collor não foi apenas isso. Havia um lado muito positivo, que :foi a abertura comercial para o mundo e a conseqüente modernização do parque produtivo do País. Com o fim do protecionismo, os :empresários brasileiros, premidos pela concorrência das mercadorias importadas, foram obrigados a tornar mais eficientes as suas :fábricas e a oferecer produtos melhores a preços menores. O governo estimulava esse processo oferecendo crédito barato para que as :indústrias importassem máquinas mais modernas.O mundo dá voltas. Ainda no ano de 1990, fui eleito deputado federal com uma soma :considerável de votos. Fui o quarto deputado mais votado do Brasil e, o mais importante, obtive tal votação defendendo exclusivamente :a Doutrina Liberal. O presidente Collor se interessou em me conhecer, convidou-me a v..."

Ludovicapipa yes? 13:37, 7 September 2007 (UTC)

Wait, so you're agreeing that he didn't end hyperinflation?--Dali-Llama 13:38, 7 September 2007 (UTC)
No, I cited Bresser and Rev Isto é saying he ended but he could keep it low --he ended but then it returned. Iam saying his legacy is that of macroeconomic agenda that ended hyperinf. but didn´t end infl. but opened the way for the end of it --this task was then accomplished by FHC...who maitained his AGENDA, ended hiper and inflation. The same for Lula. I said that millions of times. Ludovicapipa yes? 15:26, 7 September 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Economical x political aspects

Third opinion

Ok, the article seems a bit messy at the moment.

  • The last two paragraphs in the lead seem somewhat redundant. A few sentences have been simply repeated.
  • Suggestion for the economic/political emphasis >> split the section into two subsection, called “Economical aspects” and “Political impact”, and make them approximately equivalent in size. Sparks1979 18:48, 7 September 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Sources

Third opinion

Quick analysis of the links you guys have presented:

[6]

I don’t like this link. It’s a collection of quotes from a speech of Euclydes Mello, a family member of Collor and his substitute in Congress. I don’t think Euclydes can give people a neutral view of Collor’s accomplishments. Also, I tried to look for a biography of Euclydes to check his credentials, and found nothing, not even inthe Federal Senate website. Is he an economist? Where did he study?

I concur--Dali-Llama 20:09, 7 September 2007 (UTC)


[7]

This link can be considered neutral, since it comes from “Isto É” magazine. All statements not made by Zélia come from Leonardo Attuch, a young Brazilian journalist. I think they can be considered a neutral and valid opinion, but since it’s a journalist and not an economist, I think they cannot be considered opinions of an expert. Leonardo Attuch claims:

1. “Plano Collor ended hyperinflation, although it did not end high levels of inflation”.

2. “Plano Collor paved the way for Plano Real”.

I repeat, since an expert does not make these claims, I think they cannot be used as a source on their own, but I do think they can be used as source in support of other sources.

3. Zélia claims: “we got the country rid of hyperinflation, although we failed in controlling inflation rates”.

This is an interesting statement. It brings us the question – what is hyperinflation? In Wikipedia, the corresponding article states hyperinflation is inflation that is “out of control”, although there is no precise definition universally accepted. This makes our job a lot harder. I still think the only way out of this dilemma is mentioning all opinions related to the subject or simply avoiding the term "hyperinflation".—Preceding unsigned comment added by Sparks1979 (talk • contribs)

If one looks at the absolute inflation rates--no "opinion", just fact, we see that inflation initially dropped before it came back 'just as strong as before. Don't take my word for it:IBGE's IPCA indicators from 1979 to 1999. A quick tabulation of monthly averages for each year:
1989 1990 1991 1992 1993 1994 1995
29.5 29.2 17.4 23.1 31.1 22.9 1.7
Remember, the Plano Real started in July of 1994, so the figure for 1994 is an average of 6 months with 40% inflation and 6 months of about 2.5% inflation. Is anyone serious going to look at this and say that the Plano Collor ended hyperinflation? I'm sorry, but out of 24 months Collor was in office, only one month was below 5% (and that month was 4.99%). And the annual inflation rate (so 12 months combined) for 2006 was 2.86% (INPC 2006). So, using Sparks' definition of "out of control", the rates show Collor tried twice (Planos Collor I and II) to control inflation but failed. That is not "ending hyperinflation".--Dali-Llama 20:09, 7 September 2007 (UTC)
The returned infl. cannot be considered "out of control", it was not as high as before. Ludovicapipa yes? 11:34, 8 September 2007 (UTC)

"Em maio, o governo apresentou ao Congresso uma proposta de reforma fiscal destinada a aumentar a arrecadação federal e baixar a inflação, então estabilizada em 20% ao mês. Problemas na sua base política, contudo, impediram a aprovação do projeto, apesar do pronunciamento favorável do diretor-gerente do FMI, Michel Camdessus, para quem o programa econômico do governo brasileiro não sobreviveria sem um ajuste fiscal. O aval do FMI, órgão com o qual o ministro Marcílio Marques Moreira mantinha boas relações, seria muito importante para que, em julho, o governo fechasse um acordo com os bancos internacionais em torno da redução da dívida externa e da ampliação do prazo de seu pagamento." [8]Ludovicapipa yes? 11:34, 8 September 2007 (UTC)

For the last time: I didn´t say he ended hypinfl. I said he prepared the was --just as Leonardo (the journalist said) and Zelia stated. I disagree Sparks saying Leonardo can´t be considered a reliable source --the fact he´s YOUNG (I don´t know his age) shouldnt weigh (as much as when I ask the yser "How old are you" and he considers a personal attack) and a famous and respected magazine (very famous very respected) such as "Isto é" would NEVER allow irresponsible interviews, or any misleading text. Would TIME Magazine allow, or Newsweek (aren´t these cited in many articles?). Again: Collor ended hipnf. but it returned due to political matters and monetary issues. But Plan Collor preapred the road for Plan Real. can I ask you something? When Bresser says Brazil has structural problems on all levels (political, social, etc) do we blame it to portuguese colonizers? Do we blame previous governments? Do we blame jewish, japanese colonizaers, italians? Back there in teh past?? DEcades, centuries ago? Why can´t we say that un unprecedent Plan Collor that happened ONLY few years ago prepared the way for Plano Real? Ludovicapipa yes? 22:50, 7 September 2007 (UTC)
I just said that because the user doesn´t allow me to relate today´s inflations indicators (which he apparently credits to FHC only) to Collor (although the end result of this third opinion does credit the shift in the economy to Collor´s initiatives). So, we can blame ancestors, colonizers, previous governments for our porblems --but can´t give them the "posterity glory" . Ludovicapipa yes? 22:57, 7 September 2007 (UTC)
I cannot believe you're saying you never defended that he ended hyperinflation! You're contradicting yourself in the same

paragraph! saying "Collor ended hipnf. but it returned due to political matters and monetary issues" is like saying you killed someone, but he made a full recovery. A more accurate statement is that you hurt someone and he made a full recovery. HUGE difference. And no, I don't blame the Portuguese colonizers--but that doesn't mean we should be giving out credit beyond what is due. And my opinion on the Collor Plan (or the Plano Real, for that matter) is of no consequence. I'll say it again: Focus on the facts, not opinion. You're not supposed to blame or glorify anyone! This is an encyclopedia, not a shrine!

Oh and as an aside on IstoÉ: It's unimaginable that you would compare Time or Newsweek to Istoé. IstoÉ has a horrible reputation for integrity, or did you forget about the episode where FIRJAN paid R$500,000 for IstoÉ to publish a favorable piece about Rio de Janeiro?[9] You know, I would typically dismiss this stuff as an attack by Veja on its largest rival, but I actually have firsthand knowledge of an IstoÉ attack piece "made-to-order" by a friend of mine's company on a competitor. Fortunately, Wikipedia would never accept that, as it would be WP:OR. But I'm digressing--Sparks has already addressed what needed to be addressed in this source's case.--Dali-Llama 01:38, 8 September 2007 (UTC)
Lot´s of probs. here
1. To end this talk: he DID end hyperinflation. But for several political (as Faucher, Scielo shows it) and monetary probs it returned later. As Faucher, Bresser and Zelia (an other sources of minor importance) agree: he faced major political instability (Faucher: "Governability"), as Bresser stated "lack of political support" (or monetary issues) or Zelia (we made reforms that none of traditional parties would have made, they didn´t help us, didn´t support the reforms). That´s not my POV, not my thesis, it´s their´s, it´s sources´s. Hyperinfl. rates droped dramatically --reaching infl. rates. It did end hypinfl. Revista "Isto é" (because of this ISOLATED fact of corruption or whatever) is, YES, widely respected, you can always cite corruption prbs., a right or left wing bias of a media corporation (Cnn´s left-wing, Globo is right-money-wing, Veja is right-wing....). Time and Newsweek might also have their flops, slips --we never know what´s behind the scene (why Globo first supported Collor an then left him all alone...etc). If Zelia herself is saying she DID NOT end it, how could I say she did???
2. Again: you turn my words against me. I said there is a tradition to blame portuguese colonizers for our today´s structural probs. So we can blame previous governments because there is no water at home, no light in the streets...etc. Again, I don´t rty to glorify Collor --but we never remember the previous gov. for their achievements. The only full text you developed so far abt Collor was his impeachmtn and corrup. matters. So it seems you only remember Collor for these flops. Sparks gave him his opinion with whihc I agree --that´s an extensive third opinion and I respect it. Ludovicapipa yes? 11:34, 8 September 2007 (UTC)

[10]

This is another interesting link. It can be considered neutral to some extent. It’s written by a famous Brazilian journalist that writes in Estado de São Paulo, João Mellão Neto. The only catch is that João Mellão Neto was one of Collor’s Ministers, therefore, his claims should be read with some reservation.

As much as Gaspari is a famous anitCollor, antiprivatization, procommunis? So "1964 brazilia coup" article shoukd be rewritten. Although these people (Bresser, Mellão, Leonardo, etc)have their "human touch" they stiil say the same thing --so these sources are reliable. Who is neutral? Academic papers --Oh! far from that. Look above: even WP definitoin of hypinfl. is not reliable!!!!

Ludovicapipa yes? 22:50, 7 September 2007 (UTC)

You're bringing up an issue from another page into this one--if you have a problem, stop insinuating and go to that page to talk about. And by the way, aren't you supposed to be attacking me over Gaspari?--Dali-Llama 01:38, 8 September 2007 (UTC)

1. He claims, “less than one year after the Plan, hyperinflation was back”. That implies hyperinflation was controlled for about a year, and eventually came back, during Collor’s term.

2. He claims, “Collor’s Plan had a positive side, which was the opening of Brazilian markets to free trade and foreign investments, consequently stimulating improvements in Brazil’s industrial structure”. He explain this happened because “Brazilian industries were forced to improve due to strong competition arriving from abroad”.

Yes, that´s Collor´s legacy. Ludovicapipa yes? 22:50, 7 September 2007 (UTC)

Personally, I think both claims sound reasonable. My father always told me about the protection of Brazil’s computer hardware industry in the 80s and how it generally didn’t invest because there was practically no competition from abroad. However, what João Mellão Neto apparently forgot to mention – something my dad always reminded me of – is that many sectors of Brazil’s industry collapsed since they were not really prepared to compete once protection was lifted.

I agree, which is why I'm okay with saying: Collor conducted free trade reforms, but not saying Collor conducted great, beneficial and modernizing reforms. This is part of WP:PEACOCK, where instead of stating opinions, you should focus on facts--metrics, numbers, indexes, etc.--Dali-Llama 20:09, 7 September 2007 (UTC)
Bresser fully stated: Collor implemented a BRAVE an dNEW agenda. He broke up the "mafia" of car industries, of telephone, of clothing industries (that´s why today we have "Fashon Week"), computer industries --all indsutries started to compete. this is modernization and competition and beneficial. Ludovicapipa yes? 22:50, 7 September 2007 (UTC)
We've been over this time and time again. Just because someone says he's "brave", doesn't mean we include it in an encyclopedia article. If Pedro Malan or Antonio Palocci called him a "coward" or "lackey", would you allow it to be included? All three have held similar positions in government. I actually know Bresser's successor, Maílson da Nóbrega--should I get a quote from him saying what he really thinks of Collor? Of course not!--Dali-Llama 01:38, 8 September 2007 (UTC)

[11]

I don’t like this link because it isn’t signed, and it was published in a pretty meaningless website in terms of credentials. It doesn’t seem to add much to what the previous link already stated.

1. “Plano Collor 1 was a failure, as well as Plano Collor 2”

2. “Inflation was not controlled and the economy was not stabilized”.

3. “The plan wasn’t completely unsuccessful – privatizations, the opening of markets to free trade, and the initiative of development of industries introduced a new economical mentality in Brazil”.

I agree completely. Only point 3 I might have a problem with because it is, again, opinion. And as far as opinion goes, I'm sure we've already come up with more reliable sources.--Dali-Llama 20:09, 7 September 2007 (UTC)
I don´t agree --this link is always hown on th efirst pages of most of Google´s results. As for the thir poin --it is fully cited on ALL OTHER LINKS I PROVIDED SO FAR. By the way, Sparks, shouldn´t the user provide at least ONE LINK, since all links here are the result of my searches? Ludovicapipa yes? 23:02, 7 September 2007 (UTC)
I hardly think a page's ranking on Google is an accurate measure of reliability. And remember: you're the one trying to include content here, not me.--Dali-Llama 01:38, 8 September 2007 (UTC)

[12]

Ok, this is an article that was used to defend the claim that Collor’s policies were followed by FHC and then by Lula.

The sentences that may be used to support this are: “Esse processo de desindustrialização, segundo economistas, teve origem na segunda metade dos anos 80, com a crise da dívida externa, e foi aprofundado pela hiperinflação e por políticas macroeconômicas hostis à produção, que tentavam combater a escalada dos preços. Tais políticas - iniciadas com a abertura do governo Collor - foram continuadas por Fernando Henrique Cardoso e Luiz Inácio Lula da Silva, segundo economistas e industriais ouvidos pela Folha.”

Personally, I think these sentences are not trying to say the exact same policies were used by Collor, FHC and Lula. In my opinion what the article is trying to say here is that Collor, FHC and Lula centered their attention on policies that focused on controlling inflation rates, in detriment of incentives geared towards industrial and economical growth.

Ok, but I already provided sources for the link between Collor, FHC and LULa´s agenda. Ludovicapipa yes? 22:50, 7 September 2007 (UTC)

In the other hand, I think it would be fair to claim that Collor started a privatization program that was continued by FHC (though not necessarily by Lula). This seems pretty obvious though, and I don’t think it has been a source of dispute. What you two have been arguing about is whether FHC followed Collor’s economical policy of controlling inflation. We would need to be careful with semantics here. I think all governments have focused on inflation control since Sarney (Plano Cruzado aimed at controlling inflation), although each government had their own plan, save for Lula’s. In short, I think we need to clarify what exactly may have been continued from one government to the other. A general claim of “FHC followed Collor” or “Lula followed FHC” sounds very ambiguous and can be misleading. We need to answer the question: “Each government followed its antecessor in what aspects?” Policies that followed inflation control? Sounds reasonable, but then we need to clarify each government had its own plan, save for Lula’s: Plano Cruzado, Plano Cruzado II, Plano Verão, Plano Collor I, Plano Collor II, Plano Real. What do they have in common? All of them focused on the same problem: inflation. However, it seems each plan had specific and unique economical techniques behind them. We can establish a pattern in terms of “goals”, but not in terms of techniques.

You're absolutely correct. That's exactly the distinction that I've been trying to get out of that claim: who followed who in what--don't use a "blanket" claim for everyone for all policies.--Dali-Llama 20:09, 7 September 2007 (UTC)
Yes, that´s what I tried to do: as far as I Know FHC fllowed Collor (as you agreed) on his macroeconomic agenda --I said that HUMDREDS OF MILLIONS OF TIMES. I said: my goal is to show that FHC followed Collor on his macroeconomic agenda (see Collor´s talk page) and Lula as well. BUT FHC did work on moneatry policies that differed from Collor´s --to which I have no comments, no source, no citation. Ludovicapipa yes? 22:50, 7 September 2007 (UTC)
Ludovica, you can say something "HUMDREDS OF MILLIONS OF TIMES", and no matter how many times you say it, saying it doesn't mean it's true. So, as Sparks has just said, when you find a source, we can re-visit the issue.--Dali-Llama 01:38, 8 September 2007 (UTC)


[13]

Well, this was a very time consuming read. I think it was used to support the claim of continuity between FHC and Collor. One of the statements that comes close to this would be: “The reforms of FHC, which included the policy of economical development carried out by Collor, focused on privatization programs” (page 2). In terms of privatization, I think this claim supports continuity, though not in terms of inflation control. Again, we need to be careful with semantics. Another one would be “The different governments of Collor, Itamar, FHC and Lula established a continuous agenda of reforms” (page 4). Note in this case the author is referring specifically to the idea of “free market economy” with little State intervention.

As for credentials, I tried to google “João Paulo M. Peixoto” and had no luck finding out who he is. However, since it’s a study published by the University of Brasília, which is a very respected institution, I think it deserves credit.

I concur, which is why I'm not disputing that Collor initiated many privatizations: what I am disputing is that he didn't necessarily succeed in carrying all of them out.--Dali-Llama 20:09, 7 September 2007 (UTC)
You can ´t say someone who couldn´t end his term would or nor would be successful --I mean, if were taken out of yr job today, dismissed, how one could say you were not successful? This is "futurologia". It´s obvious he couldn´t succeed --but he succeed WHILE he was there. Do have a look at his accomplishments --see his website! Ludovicapipa yes? 22:50, 7 September 2007 (UTC)
So should I credit Collor for Itamar's entire term? Perhaps Richard Nixon for Gerald Ford's time in office? Which one is "futurology": crediting a person for what he actually tried to do, but did not happen during his time in office, or crediting him for something that could've happened maybe? That's why I'm saying Collor should get credit for attempting to privatize Telebrás, for example, but that it was only actually carried out in FHC's term. Itamar could have, but didn't do it either: that doesn't mean we should give him credit as well.--Dali-Llama 01:38, 8 September 2007 (UTC)

[14]

This link is neutral (Época) but it doesn’t really add anything new to the debate. It says “Zélia ended hyperinflation of 80% monthly rates”, but that doesn’t mean it is saying Zélia ended all rates of hyperinflation.

Agreed.--Dali-Llama 20:09, 7 September 2007 (UTC)


[15]

Essentially this article talks about privatization programs in Brazil. I don’t really see what it can add towards your disputes.

Agreed.--Dali-Llama 20:09, 7 September 2007 (UTC)
Well, it may not be that usefull for the article --but it may help one not to say what the user said above; Collor didn´t succeed. You would have to find a source that says that and even says that FHC´s amco agenda didn´t succeed, and boyond thta you must show that privatized companies ewre bad business. Ludovicapipa yes? 22:50, 7 September 2007 (UTC)
You're misquoting me: he didn't succeed in carrying all of them out. He did privatize Acesita and according to Faucher 15 other companies. I don't know what you mean by the rest--If you'd like to elaborate I'd be happy to reply.--Dali-Llama 01:38, 8 September 2007 (UTC)

[16]

Long, difficult and tiring read. The article basically goes into details of circumstances surrounding Plano Collor and inflation. It makes some interesting claims, although the other sources already covered the same points:

“90 days after Plano Collor, recession was still expected, and it was already clear inflation was back”.

“The failure of Plano Collor in controlling inflation can be explained due to other reasons”.

This article clearly states Plano Collor failed in controlling inflation. As for credibility, everyone knows who Bresser-Pereira is.

Agreed. Though it's important to point out on the second quote that other reasons are not political reasons.--Dali-Llama 20:09, 7 September 2007 (UTC)


[17]

This link isn’t really useful for your debate, although it’s quite interesting. I don’t remember which one of you used this link, but I liked it. It comments the claim that te unprepared Brazilian population can't vote coherently, due to lack of adequate education. At the end, it concludes this is a false premise. I disagree with this study’s conclusion, but that isn’t important for our debate.

Some interesting statements regarding your debate:

“Free trade has generated good and bad results with FHC. … The way in which Brazil opened its doors to external markets made large sectors of Brazilian industries fold due to foreign competition. Many Brazilian factories closed its doors … unemployment reached record levels in 1998”.

Agreed. I'd need to know how Ludovica wishes to use this before judging applicability.--Dali-Llama 20:09, 7 September 2007 (UTC)
By th etime of opening the market for a free trade, yes, this shake of the conomy was indeed a strong one. But they all predicted that --a sick patient whoe received a extra injection. One must consider the paper was written in 2002 --so a technical and not macro analysis shouldn´t be relevant to this article. If it was not a techinical one, ok, but it´s not. Ludovicapipa yes? 22:50, 7 September 2007 (UTC)


[18]

Ok, I admit at this point I’m really tired of reading all this papers. This one is published by UNIP, a rubbish institution, so I don’t think it deserves much respect. If anyone wants to use it, please highlight what bits are interesting because I’m not reading it through.

I thought so to, but I decided not to talk about UNIP as to not inflame the discussion. On the other hand, this author sounds familiar--I think he taught at USP São Francisco or something like that.--Dali-Llama 20:09, 7 September 2007 (UTC)
Ok. Ludovicapipa yes? 22:50, 7 September 2007 (UTC)

[19]

This is the final link I was going to analyze. It’s quite a long read and I’m not really going to go through it before someone highlights what the interesting points are. It’s the transcription of some sort of public hearing. Not so sure about credentials here.

+ + +

Ok, I think some points can be established from the links I’ve just gone through:

  • 1. Hyperinflation – regarding hyperinflation, we need to find a definition set by Brazilian economists, or else we won’t have a parameter to understand what we are really talking about. We know inflation was reduced by Plano Collor – this is a fact – but we also know inflation was still out of control – does this mean hyperinflation was terminated? I don’t know.
Suggestion : I suggest we avoid the term “hyperinflation” due to its ambiguous nature and concentrate on undisputed facts: “ High levels of inflation were reduced by Plano Collor, but, according to his Minister of Economy, Zélia Cardozo, inflation was still out of control ”.
See above my notes on hyperinflation. On the suggestion, I'd rather say something along the lines of "Although the Plano Collor managed to cut inflation rates at first, they steadily increased, with the government being unable to bring them back under control". I'd rather leave Zélia's opinion out and draw an argument based on the de facto rates. --Dali-Llama 20:09, 7 September 2007 (UTC)
  • 2. Continuity – I think it’s fair to say Plano Collor started a process of privatization that was followed and expanded by FHC. However, it’s important to emphasize that’s only one aspect of the plan. The techniques used to combat inflation in Plano Real were totally different from those used in Plano Collor. Furthermore, Plano Collor wasn’t the first to focus on controlling inflation – that was also the main goal in Sarney’s plans.
Ok, but As Bresser said: many tried but Collor was the only one to change focus and start a brave agenda that preaprd the was for Plan Real --otherwise FHC would never follow him. Ludovicapipa yes? 22:50, 7 September 2007 (UTC)


Suggestion : “ Plano Collor established a new policy of neoliberalism, which focused on carrying out a large-scale privatization program and on shifting trade barriers to increase foreign investments. This political agenda was followed and expanded by Itamar Franco and FHC. However, Itamar Franco and FHC created a new and successful set of inflation control techniques not used by Collor’s or Sarney’s governments, which failed in controlling inflation ”.
Agreed! Minor change on "succesful set"-- for WP:PEACOCK, it's better to say it succeeded in controlling inflation, rather that the set was successful. Sounds a little semantic, I know--I think I caught the PEACOCK bug A.Z. has been throwing around.--Dali-Llama 20:09, 7 September 2007 (UTC)
Hum, I have my doubts. Collor´s plans are not geared towards foreign investmens --but rather trying to "ressurect" Brazilian companies, industries: I was plannig to cite not only Telebras, Embraer, Acesita, Vale do rio Doce, etc...whcih, wow!!, awere Brazilian companies that receive NOT ONLY foreign investment. Quite the contrary indeed. Ludovicapipa yes? 22:50, 7 September 2007 (UTC)
Sparks, thank you very much for your incredible help. Ludovicapipa yes? 23:22, 7 September 2007 (UTC)
I also think Collor´s role are not enough mentioned, since many citations talk abt the very fact he prepared the road, he paved teh way. The importance of his agenda is diminished --we see many links concerning that, and even we recognized for its historical importance. While you use the word success for Itamar and FHC, which inherited his reforms, the same word was not used for Collor. Althoug Collor started everything, and was dismissed, the fact the following adms. succeed is due to his initiatives. That´s (part, a small part) of his legacy --indeed this is a very basic recent brazilian history.Ludovicapipa yes? 23:30, 7 September 2007 (UTC)
Ludovica, this is the same thing you've been saying for the past three weeks. Wikipedia is not a soapbox--As long as you cite facts, they'll warrant inclusion, otherwise, as Sparks has shown, the process for including opinion, between WP:RS and WP:NPOV, is incredibly stringent. An inflation rate is a fact: calling someone "brave" is an opinion. I'll write up a compromise edit tomorrow for the Zélia, Fernando Collor and Plano Collor, which I'll separate paragraph-by-paragraph for yours and Sparks' endorsement. I expect you to comment as appropriate, but remembering that until someone else comes along, if Sparks and I agree, that forms a majority consensus. Similarly, if you and Sparks agree, that will be the new consensus. Hopefully this will be the last we hear of this.--Dali-Llama 01:50, 8 September 2007 (UTC)

Hope it helps. Sparks1979 19:02, 7 September 2007 (UTC)

Sparks, this has been an enormous help, I can never thank you enough. You took the time to study both what the sources said and who the sources were. That was great. Thank you so much, and I'll wait for Ludovica's response.--Dali-Llama 20:09, 7 September 2007 (UTC)


[edit] New

Ludovica, this is the same thing you've been saying for the past three weeks. Wikipedia is not a soapbox--As long as you cite facts, they'll warrant inclusion, otherwise, as Sparks has shown, the process for including opinion, between WP:RS and WP:NPOV, is incredibly stringent. An inflation rate is a fact: calling someone "brave" is an opinion. I'll write up a compromise edit tomorrow for the Zélia, Fernando Collor and Plano Collor, which I'll separate paragraph-by-paragraph for yours and Sparks' endorsement. I expect you to comment as appropriate, but remembering that until someone else comes along, if Sparks and I agree, that forms a majority consensus. Similarly, if you and Sparks agree, that will be the new consensus. Hopefully this will be the last we hear of this.--Dali-Llama 01:50, 8 September 2007 (UTC)
Compromise edit is provided by the third opinion. Ludovicapipa yes? 15:17, 8 September 2007 (UTC)
No it's not.--Dali-Llama 15:37, 8 September 2007 (UTC)
???
1. As long as I can cite facts? All the links under analisys are what? Aren´t they facts? Brave is no opinion, it´s Bresser´s academic analisys.
2.What do you mean you will write sometinhg for Sparks endorsement?
3. As as now, I agree with Sparks final text, although Collor´s legacy is not fully mentioned, credited --instead, there is a "success" word credited to Itamar and FHC, which are not the theme at stake. Although they deserve, it´s due to Collor´s agenda.

Ludovicapipa yes? 11:41, 8 September 2007 (UTC)

In addition to Faucher, Bresser, Zelia, there is this FGVCPDOC source to justify Collor´s lack of political support.
"Em maio, o governo apresentou ao Congresso uma proposta de reforma fiscal destinada a aumentar a arrecadação federal e baixar a inflação, então estabilizada em 20% ao mês. Problemas na sua base política, contudo, impediram a aprovação do projeto, apesar do pronunciamento favorável do diretor-gerente do FMI, Michel Camdessus, para quem o programa econômico do governo brasileiro não sobreviveria sem um ajuste fiscal. O aval do FMI, órgão com o qual o ministro Marcílio Marques Moreira mantinha boas relações, seria muito importante para que, em julho, o governo fechasse um acordo com os bancos internacionais em torno da redução da dívida externa e da ampliação do prazo de seu pagamento." [20]Ludovicapipa yes? 11:50, 8 September 2007 (UTC)
Please, STOP citing sources disconnected from specific pieces from the text. This doesn't help at all. KieferSkunk warned you about it--it makes no sense when you don't connect to a particular paragraph. And once again, I'll refer you to WP:NPOV to see what's opinion and what's fact.--Dali-Llama 15:37, 8 September 2007 (UTC)
Iam sorry this source is directly related to political matters of Plano Collor. FGVCPDOC is FGV´s source. It´s talking abt infl. and it emphazises FAucher´s, Zelia´s and Bresser´s. Why don´t YOU offer some source? I´d like to hear Spark´s third opinion for this new source. It also should END talks concerning Collor´s end of hiperinfl. I consider a extermely important source. How does Kiefer know if he doesn´t understand port.? Ludovicapipa yes? 15:46, 8 September 2007 (UTC)
Ludovica, I sincerely mean it when I say that I'm progressively finding your logic difficult to follow. I've probably been doing this for too long. I'll do what I proposed above, starting with Sparks' compromise suggestions, and then we can address specific changes. It's obvious talking about the issues behind the text is not going to work.--Dali-Llama 16:24, 8 September 2007 (UTC)
I think his texts are enough to end discussion on these articles ( I ahve no plans to edit political artciles). I can never throw away the excellent job he made. I ´d stick to his final texts. Ludovicapipa yes? 16:46, 8 September 2007 (UTC)

[edit] New Version

I have to be honest in saying that I have a lot more experience with economics than I've purported to have. I didn't want it to affect the discussion, since Wikipedia does not (and should not) defer to credentials. I tried my best to argue things based off of policy to keep it NPOV and not inflame the Ludovica's personal attacks, but it became clear that opinion and POV were the only things Ludovica understood. Saying that Collor ended hyperinflation and then it came back from the dead was the last straw that broke the camel's back (also known as "a última gota d'água"). I swear I heard Mário Henrique Simonsen rolling over in his grave. After seeing Sparks' great work in Law enforcement in Brazil, a subject where he clearly knows his stuff, I felt compelled to act.

This is what I meant when I talked about an article that explains policy through facts, not use opinion for the sole purpose of apportioning credit.

The sources range from good old Bresser to the unimpeachable IPEA to the random college professor. It's important to mention that these are not being sourced for their opinion. The few instances where it was needed to make a point (IE:Why the plan failed), I used multiple sources who used quantitative data to prove their points. Anyways, let me know what you think. I'm pretty sure I covered the points of compromise, but I may have skipped one or two.--Dali-Llama 07:10, 10 September 2007 (UTC)

Yr text is weak, to sey the least. After reading this, one has added but nothing to its personal culture. It´s amazing to see my work and Spark´s thrown away. No bom português: vc parece estar falando sozinho (quem fala sozinho não é ouvido por ninguém). A lot of minor, of no importance (at all) details, are abundant on yr articles. The only valuable part is the Plan´s list of goals. Anyway, I have no further comments, I end any an all discussion of this article and all the others. Ludovicapipa yes? 11:49, 10 September 2007 (UTC)
Well, I think we'll let others decide.--Dali-Llama 14:29, 10 September 2007 (UTC)

In response do Ludovica's comments on Sparks' talk page:

To the extent that you (Ludovica) accuse me of ignoring Sparks' comments, I'll leave that up for Sparks to decide. As I previously stated, Sparks provided a critical read of the sources you've provided (and an excellent one at that) and the conclusions or citations you drew from them. From the twelve sources you provided, eight were considered either not reliable per WP:RS or not relevant or redundant to the point you were trying to make. In the end, Sparks provided compromise suggestions on two separate issues: hyperinflation and continuity. On hyperinflation, Sparks' suggestion seemed to be geared more towards ending debate by finding an acceptable compromise in the absence of a clear metric for hyperinflation. You said that he "ended hyperinflation" and then it came back. When I presented quantitative evidence that was not the case, you tried to defend your point by what to me seems to be a misunderstanding of the theories of fiscal and monetary policy. So what I did was greatly expand what tackling hyperinflation entails, its challenges (mostly re-monetization) and what the government's actions were. I don't think a single economist in the world will say something as singular as "Collor ended hyperinflation" when the historical quantitative evidence is so crystal-clear on the issue.

And on continuity, Sparks' compromise edit, while I agreed with it with a minor reservation, does not "fit" into the article as it stands because it was expanded to a considerably higher granularity which I (and indeed Sparks) had called for earlier. To the extent that you get down from your soapbox and cease to push what you think is the redress for a "historical injustice", and cite individual continuity events with a reliable source, we'll include it in the article as long as it complies with WP:NPOV and WP:UNDUE.--Dali-Llama 20:07, 10 September 2007 (UTC)