Talk:Plaid Cymru

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[edit] Archives

Created Archives for dated discussions. Most topics prior to September seem to be dated and thus moved. If there is a discussion topic that should be updated, please feel free to link it to the archived history.

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Archives
Archive 1.


[edit] Page "Rewrite" Outline

I recommend updating the page to reflect more on current organizational structure, ideology, and policies and positions. Given the expanded History of Plaid Cymru page, I recommend a more concise history here, brief and to the point.


This is the proposed outline:

  • I. Introduction
  • II. Aims of the Party
  • III. Party structure
  • IV. Ideology and voter base
  • V. Recent policies and positions (in aphabitical order)
    • a) Devolution and independence
    • b) Economic policies
    • c) European Union
    • d) Foreign policies
    • e) Language
    • f) Legal policies
    • g) Social policies
  • VI. Concise history
  • VII. Electoral performance


I welcome comments on the proposed outline. Drachenfyre 00:04, 10 September 2007 (UTC)

Happy for you to add in new sections on structure. I can see problems with a section on ideology and voter base. I'm opposed to "a more concise history" that will doubtless refer to your history of Plaid Cymru page since that page is flawed. As far as I can see you have relied almost exclusively on one secondary source (John Davies) to account for the party from inception until the late 90s (the other sources are from quotes from this section - you do not appear to have read them yourself).
There are some good sections in your (and I say your as it has nearly all been written by you) history of Plaid Cymru page, but it is also hagiographic in many places. So I'm opposed to it substituting for the history section on this page. The alternative is that I begin to edit your history page to inject the necessary NPOV into it. Normalmouth 05:29, 10 September 2007 (UTC)
Your objects are duely noted.
Professor John Davies' history of Wales is universally hailed as the most comprehensive, unbiased, and thorough history yet published for Wales. He has contributed to BBC Wales on many occasions. He is a subject matter expert, so relying on his interpretation does not inject point of view into the material. If his material differs from your own it may be your own bias that is clouding your objectivity. Dr. Davies is currently living in South Wales, and his material remains very relevant.
'Tis funny as you have yourself used his material in the past. Of course I welcome more sources, and in point of fact I did add your source material where appropriate (the one's where you actually did add a source to). If you have source material that differs significantly to Dr. Davies, then it should be added and the differences noted on the page... noted where a subject matter expert differes from another. It should be sourced.
On the History of Plaid Cymru, all of the material there is directly attributable to subject matter experts, such as Professor John Davies, the BBC Wales, and local authorities. I am sorry that you feel these sources are biased in any way.
Drachenfyre 03:28, 11 September 2007 (UTC)


You misunderstand my points - perhaps willfully. I do not say that John Davies's account is biased or unreliable, merely that it is only one of several sources and that your article over-reliant on it. The POV problem arises from your selective use of that source. Example: your quote Ambrose Bebb's opposition to Hitler but decline to mention the section where Davies discusses "the readiness of prominent party members to see virtue in Mussolini and Franco".Normalmouth 05:27, 11 September 2007 (UTC)
I will reread my notes on Plaid Cymru and WWII. If that quote is exact, then it should be included in context. Context is important because many Labour and Conservitive leaders also praised Stallin in WWII, yet arguably Stallin was as "evil" a person as Hitler and Mussolini. I readilly welcome you to add that to the History of Wales page, within context and sourced. In mean time, I will not be home for some hours yet and will look into my notes again.Drachenfyre 05:43, 11 September 2007 (UTC)


Normalmouth, this is what I mean by context:

On Chruchill and Facism (from the Churchill wiki artical): "Furthermore, he controversially claimed that the Fascism of Benito Mussolini had "rendered a service to the whole world," showing, as it had, "a way to combat subversive forces" — that is, he considered the regime to be a bulwark against the perceived threat of Communist revolution. At one point, Churchill went as far as to call Mussolini the "Roman genius… the greatest lawgiver among men." (^ Picknett, Lynn, Prince, Clive, Prior, Stephen & Brydon, Robert (2002). War of the Windsors: A Century of Unconstitutional Monarchy, p. 78. Mainstream Publishing. ISBN 1-84018-631-3. )

But dispite Churchill's statements hailing Mussolini's facism in the 1930s, you would not then further suggest that Churchill was sympathetic to Faciest Itally in WWII. By some of the way you were writting this section, you were linking directly Plaid Cymru with support for the Axis in WWII, which is patently not the case. This is where the main objects consisstantly arise

Additionally, Earl Lloyd George of Dwyfor also himself made comments seemingly praising Hitler in 1936, but you would not then say that Lloyd George was then a faciest or agreed in totally with Hitler and Facism. So, when Lewis and Bedd made those comments in the 1930s, they were in line with many main-stream U.K. politicians of the time. But clearly Plaid Cymru, and its leadership, did not support a faciest programme, did not support the Axis in WWII, and more to the point aided the U.K. government in the War Effort.Drachenfyre 06:06, 11 September 2007 (UTC)

It's an interesting aside, but I fail to see what either Churchill or Lloyd George have to do with providing a balanced account of the early leadership of PC and its attitudes to Europe's totalitarian regimes. If you wish to amend the respective articles, please do so. Here were are talking about Plaid Cymru. As Kenneth Morgan says "[Plaid's early politics were complicated and compromised by the apparent neo-fascism of its charismatic first President, the poet and dramatist Saunders Lewis, and the sympathy for fascist-style corporatism shown by him and other Roman Catholic leaders of the party." (Morgan, K O, Welsh Devolution: the Past and the Future in Scotland and Wales: Nations Again? (Ed. Taylor, B and Thomson, K), (1999), University of Wales Press). Or you might want to turn to what G A Williams says: "During the 1930s Plaid became even more of a right wing force. It’s journal refused to resist Hitler or Mussolini, ignored or tolerated anti-Semitism and, in effect, came out in support of Franco. In 1941 Saunders Lewis’ pamphlet "The Church and the World" explicitly rejected the war against Nazi Germany while in 1944 Ambrose Bebb condemned the plot to assassinate Hitler." (Williams, G A When Was Wales?, (1985), Penguin). These two authors, together with Davies, make up the panoramic historians of modern Welsh politics. You have ignored them all. You have also neglected D Hwyel Davies' The Welsh Nationalist Party 1225-1945 which examines in detail the leadership’s views on international affairs, which were inevitably dominated by the rise Europe’s fascist dictators.
On your suggestion that that it does not warrant a mention, particularly as other party leaders in some way acted similarly, I would say that to include Bebb's opposition but not other leaders' sympathies is clearly unbalanced. It is also clear (as shown above) that PC had a distinctive position which, in effect, meant that they condoned fascism more forcefully and for longer than these other examples. A more comprehensive survey of the available historiography than you have undertaken would help you to see this. Normalmouth 07:36, 11 September 2007 (UTC)
I never suggested they did not warrent mention... if it is based on a reliable and unbiased subject matter expert then its inclusion should be made part of the text.
Those sources are agreable and should be included, yes, on the History of Plaid Cymru page as well. It should be pointed out where the different emphasis lies however. As demonstrated by Churchill and Lloyd George's comments through out the 30s, it does not necessarily follow that just because there was some support in the 30s that they were then in favor of the Axis during WWII. There is more evidence to suport Plaid Cymru members chose to suport the War Effort then hinder it.
Ambrose Bedd shifted his prespective as sympathetic towards some aspects of faciestism towards wholely supporting the War Effort against the Axis (his not supporting a political assination does not demonstrate support for Hitler).
The portion which mentions Bedd is during the 1939-1945 section. This is section where he is in support of the War Effort. Additionally, the party's views did change during the war. Though I am not a subject matter expert, it would follow that as Lewis stepped down as party leader in 39, so did other of the "old guard" who shared simular views prior to the War.
So yes, add these elements to the History of Plaid Cymru page. But there should be a disclaimer with some of the sources, as Lord Morgan is a member of the Labour party (and we know of the animosity some have in each party for the other) and was created a life peer in 2000. Some sources could have political agendas, and it should be so noted somewhere in the artical. Same holds true for John Davies.... but he has treated all the parties the same and in fact you could find much information on Labour too (though this was not what I was looking for)
So, in context I welcome you to add to the History of Plaid Cymru page, but do not take away sourced information.—Preceding unsigned comment added by Drachenfyre (talk • contribs) 09:37, 12 September 2007 (UTC)

I added the additional infomraion under The Lewis Doctrine and criticism 1926-1939, where it fits most appropriatly. I need the source for this quote "During the 1930s Plaid became even more of a right wing force. It’s journal refused to resist Hitler or Mussolini, ignored or tolerated anti-Semitism and, in effect, came out in support of Franco" to attribute it correctly. Drachenfyre 10:32, 12 September 2007 (UTC)

[edit] 'Regionalism' as an ideology?

User IP 131.251.134.131 has added Regionalism as an ideology for PC. I don't think the party considers Wales a region, so I think it's incorrect. The same user changed the Politics of Wales article so that 'Constituent countries of the UK' was changed to 'regions of the UK'. I think it's a blatant POV and reverted changes in the other article, but haven't done so here in case others had different views.--Rhyswynne 10:36, 25 September 2007 (UTC)

I saw that too, and was wondering whether to change it back (I don't know enough about Welsh politics to comment!) I've tagged the IP with {{sharedipedu}} for future reference: it's a Cardiff University machine, according to WHOIS ("University of Wales College of Cardiff"). BencherliteTalk 10:41, 25 September 2007 (UTC)

Hi. I've temporarily protected the page so that only registered users can edit it. I hope this will help a bit. Deb 11:45, 26 September 2007 (UTC)

I've undone the changes, as there's no way of asking the unregistered user for reasoning behind the changes and he/she hasn't left any here either.--Rhyswynne 12:03, 26 September 2007 (UTC)
Agree that it's not a fair description of PC's ideology (though they did have the briefest of flirtations with describing Wales as a "National Region" in the European context - this oxymoron was soon dropped). Neither should Wales be described as other than as a nation in the Wales page. Normalmouth 18:37, 26 September 2007 (UTC)
As the same edits were coming from the same IP on three occasions, I've left a message about this discussion on the IP's talk page in the hope that it is a relatively static IP and that editor might see it. BencherliteTalk 20:54, 26 September 2007 (UTC)