User talk:PKM/4 March-July 2007

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[edit] 1300-1400 in fashion

Hello! I recently started the article 1300-1400 in fashion. I've seen some of your work with the other articles in the History of Western fashion, so I just wondered if you might want to help out with this one. I've got a decent start, but it has still got a ways to go. Thanks!--Tabun1015 03:28, 11 March 2007 (UTC)

Good start. This isn't precisely my period, but I will be happy to help. - PKM 07:03, 11 March 2007 (UTC)
Thanks--Tabun1015 13:54, 11 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Reply

I don't see any recent vandalism, so I wouldn't worry about it. Just keep up the good work maintaining it. John Reaves (talk) 07:42, 11 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Barnstar

The Original Barnstar
I hereby award you this barnstar for your continuing and invaluable help with the 1300-1400 in fashion article--Tabun1015 02:16, 12 March 2007 (UTC)
Why, thank you! My first ever Barnstar! - PKM 02:18, 12 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] 14th century

Someone has {facted} my bit about the rich being sewn into their clothes & unsewn at night. I thought this was from Barbara Tuchman;A Distant Mirror, 1978, Alfred A Knopf Ltd but can't find it via the index. Do you by any chance have a reference? - I'm pretty sure it is right, though maybe for parties etc rather than all the time. The Bal des Ardents and the death of Charles the Bad of Navarre both certainly involved sewn-on clothes, though they are special cases.

Also you might add Laver's thing about the C14th start of fashion to the lead.

I've been doing some picture research, adding to the C15th commons fashion categories. Johnbod 16:09, 15 March 2007 (UTC)

I am sure about the rich (women anyway) being sewn into their clothes later on, though I am not sure about this early. Will dig.
Great
Do you have a source for wood block printing on fabric this early? I know wood block is your area, but none of my costume or textile books supports that - what I have says that attempts at wood block printing on fabric were not successful in Europe because they couldn't figure out how to keep the dyes from running. Fast-dyed floral calicoes were a "revelation" when the East India Company brought them to Europe and they were quickly outlawed under pressure from the silk-weaving guilds, but by 1670 wood block printing on mordanted cloth was being practiced in Holland, France, and England. (Thus Tozer, Fabric of Society.) Janet Arnold writing on the 16th century says "printed" fabrics at this time were stamped with hot irons, not printed as we think of it. So. Would love a reputable source that says otherwise.
Will add; but no washing settings in my sources. If they could keep plain colours fast, then why not ....?
issue is the colors running - if the whole fabric is woad blue, it doesn't matter much if the dye runs.
I assume we're both channeling Blanche Payne, but I wish I had a more recent scholarly reference on this period. She relies heavily on Norris, which takes us back to the late 1920s, and I know some of what she says about 16th and 17th centuties is outdated, so that may be true of 1300-1500 as well.
I expect I've seen Blanche Payne. I get confused with all these glamorous web-mistresses & their glamourous names. This] looks the business.
Thanks for populated images for the next period; there are so many to choose from I am overwhelmed. - PKM 02:27, 16 March 2007 (UTC)
I'll try to get some more. These are turn of the C13/14th - nice clear images, with social mix. All boys.

Johnbod 02:54, 16 March 2007 (UTC)

Oooh I want to use some of those! Thanks. - PKM 03:00, 16 March 2007 (UTC)
On the dyes, they may not have washed them very often, of course. The C15 (I think) Italians used flock-printed fabric (print in glue, springle on tinsel) for kids clothes for weddings etc - quite cheap imitation brocade, but it all came off when you washed it (or by bed-time).

I've added the b-p refs now. Johnbod 03:35, 16 March 2007 (UTC)

Thanks. - p.
The text of the Hunting Book is 13whatever; this MS is Paris 1405-10 (it was a bestseller, as you can imagine) Johnbod 03:48, 16 March 2007 (UTC)
Rats,have to move it then! - PKM 01:50, 17 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Tolkien book covers

Hi there. I've been ferretting around Tolkien articles again, and I keep coming across ones that you've uploaded. Do you have a list somewhere, as a couple of them are a bit faded and yellowed (like the The Atlas of Middle-earth one), and I've been considering scanning and uploading some of my scans. Well, unless Wikipedia ditches fair-use images, which would be a major pain... Have you been following the debate on that? Carcharoth 16:58, 19 March 2007 (UTC)

I have not been following that debate. Poor idea IMHO.
I don't have a list; scanned some of mine and grabbed some from the Tolkien bibliography site in the UK. -= PKM 04:22, 20 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] 1400-1500

I don't know if you noticed but this

on commons is a version of #5 in the mens 1400-50 gallery with I think much better/truer colour - needs cropping though.

It's shaping up nicely, i think Johnbod 03:24, 24 March 2007 (UTC)

Oooh, thanks, yes, much better color. I'll do the crop. More fun than running through the Yorck project in the commons and slapping fashion tags on things. (Note to self:left off at Antonio Pollaiuolo...)
I think it's shaping up nicely too. - PKM 03:45, 24 March 2007 (UTC)
I've done all the Italian Renaissance painters on Commons (by that category). The frustrating thing for me is that there are lots of great prints from this period, but the images here & on the web are nearly all of appalling quality. A crop from Image:Van der weyden miniature.jpg - Philip the Good presentation (from Chaperon etc) could go into the earlier mens gallery - 1447-8. Johnbod 03:56, 24 March 2007 (UTC)
New higher-res can, just for you, John. Making crops now. - PKM 17:02, 24 March 2007 (UTC)
great thanks Johnbod 20:29, 24 March 2007 (UTC)
PS going on a business trip - may be scarce between Monday and Saturday - PKM 17:13, 25 March 2007 (UTC)
For an upper-working-class look, how about one of these gondoliers, or both?
. Good tips I guess. Johnbod 20:10, 25 March 2007 (UTC)
Perfect! Added. Now we need a good clear image of poulaines that I can crop for footwear...
The Duke Of B's presentation (right) has some with pattens worn. or there's a print in 1460s commons cat with pattens alongside. I'm sure there are others. Johnbod 20:50, 25 March 2007 (UTC)
arnolfini, of course! Johnbod 20:53, 25 March 2007 (UTC)
That crop was already in the commons. Convenient. I saw your comments on Image:Franko-flämischer Meister 002.jpg - I knew there was something off about that image, but not the history (not my period!)- let me know if you think we should replace it with something else. -PKM 21:15, 25 March 2007 (UTC)
No - It's only above the hatline it can't be trusted, so I think it's fine. Another thing earlier restorers did is overpaint the chain of gold beads on the dress, now cleared off. The face has also been repainted a fair bit, but that is hardly at issue here. Johnbod 22:57, 25 March 2007 (UTC)


[edit] Congratulations on this one!

I went and assessed all your unassessed fashion articles (the history ones). Your work paid off as all but one made B-Class.

The one that didn't, 1400-1500 in fashion, got the first A-class I've handed out and only the second in the whole fashion project after someone else gave my work on Anna Wintour one. It's comprehensive and very well-cited. I think you should take it to peer review and prep it for a GA nom ... it would be nice for the project to have one. Daniel Case 05:30, 30 March 2007 (UTC)

Daniel, thank you so much. I am astounded. I must say the work we did on 1400-1500 (Johnbod contributed significant bits and certainly raised the bar for the rest) has spurred me to improve the earlier entries in the series. - PKM 18:16, 31 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Help with EB?

Hi Paula Kate,

I see that you've been doing great work as usual. I think your articles are awesome, too, and likely to become our first Featured Articles! :)

I could use a little help with another Featured article candidate, the Encyclopædia Britannica, which I've been working on. It's been hard for me to always be objective and NPOV, but I've been trying my best. If you have some time, would you be so kind as to look it over and give me your honest impressions? Any suggestions you have would be most welcome — thanks very much! :) Willow 22:52, 30 March 2007 (UTC)

I'll certainly take a look! - PKM 18:17, 31 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Patten (shoe)

Hi, as if becoming a fashionista wasn't bad enough, I am now turning into a foot-fetishist. I'd be glad if you could cast an eye, & possibly a couple of references. Btw pattens goes straight there, but via a redirect, for the lazy & those who trust a bot to correct it. Maybe I should move it to that. Thanks Johnbod 00:39, 1 April 2007 (UTC)

Ha ha ha, addictive, isn't it? Great job. I think Patten (shoe) is the correct title. I added references. Want to improve chopine? - PKM 17:11, 1 April 2007 (UTC)
Many thanks! I'll have a look at chopine. Johnbod 17:16, 1 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Work

Thank you! Paul B 10:55, 7 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Fashion

needs a nice pic (or two) in colour - i've added a C18 caricature to the top, which could maybe be moved down. Something modern needed. Thanks Johnbod 14:37, 11 April 2007 (UTC)

I've added a nice Paquin from La Gazette due bon ton, 1912. After 1923 it's hard because good fashion illustrations aren't public domain (this is a ongoing area of discussion for Wikipedia:WikiProject Fashion). Thanks for reminding me of this article. - PKM 16:57, 14 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Help with understanding 1791 fashions

Frontispiece to the 1791 edition.
Frontispiece to the 1791 edition.

Hi PK,

Do you have a few minutes to help with a historical fashion question? A wonderful Wikipedian, Awadewit, wrote an article about Original Stories from Real Life, a children's book by Mary Wollstonecraft. Near the end, one section discusses differing interpretations of the fashions in the book's frontispiece, reproduced here. Could you share with us your impressions of how the image might have been seen back in 1791? For example, is there anything that strikes you as unusual about their bonnets, shoes, hairstyles or dresses? Do their stances and facial expressions seem typical for illustrations of that era? Awadewit has cited two scholars of English literature, but it might be helpful to know the fashion context of the image. Thank you very much! Willow 16:26, 19 April 2007 (UTC)

I am not an expert on the period the way Churchh is, but the "large cumbrous bonnet" line is clearly written by someone with no understanding of what they are seeing. At first I thought we were looking at a pouf-topped mob cap (center, below); now as near as I can tell at this resolution, the hat is actually modestly sized but looks larger because it has ostrich plumes set in the band (see right, below). Either way the brim is proprotionately similar to the sizes of the hats worn by the girls (if one mentally tips Mrs. Mason's head up, it should be apparent that the hats are roughly the same size), and much smaller than what had been fashionable just a few years before (left, below).

1785

Mob cap, 1793

1798, similar to Mrs. Mason's hat
Hope this helps. (Great article, BTW.) - PKM 19:44, 19 April 2007 (UTC)
I'm grabbing those girls for Halo (religious iconography) ! Johnbod 20:01, 19 April 2007 (UTC)

Thanks so much! I was sure that you would have an idea. :) The mob-cap crossed my mind, too; I didn't make out the plumes, and was reminded more of that poufy hat drawn by Gilbert Stuart.

It is a great article, isn't it? My eyes were opened to a whole chapter in history. Awadewit has been lavishing a lot of care on it.

Unfortunately, Churchh seems to be on a long wiki-break; hopefully, he'll come back soon! Hoping that all's well with you, Willow 20:23, 19 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Fair use rationale for Image:Marshall Fields Catalog 1936 1.jpg

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[edit] Pleat assessment

I raised it to B-class ... good work. Daniel Case 22:17, 22 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Lady W

A very sexy lady - saw her last year at the Tate. Johnbod 04:11, 27 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Charles I

This has been squeezed vertically - ie Charles looks even less like a man of 4 ft 10 inches (I think it was) than he should. The correct dimensions/ratio (I presume) are given on the Commons page - 266/207. If it's very easy to unsqeeze & save back, that would be great - if not don't worry. Thanks Johnbod 02:36, 2 May 2007 (UTC)

Easy to change aspect ratio, but you lost me on where it's correct in the Commons. This version is 599x779, and the other version I found Image:Anthonis van Dyck 044.jpg is 2024×2579, - PKM 03:15, 2 May 2007 (UTC)
Yes, the measurements they quote, & the 2 images, come out around .76 or .77. I'm looking at 2 book illustrations at .618 (371/600), which I'm sure is correct - the stirrup is almost round. It's the Louvre's own on-line pic which is wrong. Maybe save as a seperate version. Thanks. Johnbod 03:34, 2 May 2007 (UTC)
Got it, okay, can do that. - PKM 19:36, 3 May 2007 (UTC)
Better? Image:Charles I of England 2.jpg Many of the online versions are cropped to the right, so it gets tricky. - PKM 17:29, 5 May 2007 (UTC)
Er, sorry, this looks pretty much the same. Is this the right one? Johnbod 03:04, 11 May 2007 (UTC)
Very slightly different. Insufficient I take it? Let me dig out a hardcopy. - PKM 03:07, 11 May 2007 (UTC)
Sorry again! Johnbod 03:12, 11 May 2007 (UTC)
No worries. Back on the weekend, brain is mush now. - PKM 03:38, 11 May 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Bliaut

I would be interested in providing one or several illustrations for bliaut, as I've researched it rather in depth, and illustrated a small-press work on the subject (written by another person). Also, I'd like to contribute to the article, perhaps flesh it out a bit? I don't want to step on toes. Jauncourt 21:24, 2 May 2007 (UTC)

Please, go for it! I stumbled across the article and did some tweaks, but I feel no ownership (and I very much doubt some of what's in there, but this isn't really my period). We need all the help with medieval clothing we can get. - PKM 19:37, 3 May 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Fashion history navbox

Now that I've created and set up the ones for a few clothing categories, I'm thinking of setting one up for the fashion history articles. Would you mind if I did so? If you have a reason for wanting to keep the browse boxes, let me know. Daniel Case 05:50, 3 May 2007 (UTC)

Do go ahead with my blessing - those nav boxes were one of the first templates I ever did, and something tied to the rest of the fashion project stylistically would be terrific. - PKM 19:39, 3 May 2007 (UTC)
I have created it (from one of the generic templates) and placed it in all the articles now. I'll probably have to nominate the one you created for deletion as it has now been removed from every article it was in and is thus superseded. Daniel Case 13:09, 5 May 2007 (UTC)
Looks terrific, thanks!! Adding Byzantine dress. - PKM 16:06, 5 May 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Twill

I'm working on the technical illustrations for this now. I'm also working up numerous other fabric-structure technical diagrams at the same time (to allow for any fabric structures that need diagrams and/or to allow for the possibility of continuity of style from one fabric structure diagram to another across such entries, if a need is expressed). Two or three versions will be available, and placed in Wikimedia commons for illustration purposes where needed. Also, I'd like to flesh it out with a less-technical introduction. Thanks for asking me to illustrate. Jauncourt 16:44, 10 May 2007 (UTC)

Great, looking forward to these! - PKM 03:00, 11 May 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Orphaned fair use image (Image:NonFreeImageRemoved.svg)

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1937 suits
1937 suits
Holdig this image for 1930s in fashion when it grows beyond a redirect. - PKM 16:09, 12 May 2007 (UTC)


[edit] Image:Image:1833 fashion plate.jpg

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[edit] Image:Image:1837.jpg

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[edit] Image:Chicago woolen mill suits1.jpg

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[edit] Agostino Chigi

Hello, PKM, when you have leisure, would you look at the dashing young blade in the engraving supposed to show Agostino Chigi (died 1520)? I'd date him in the 1630s, thus a later Agostino Chigi. I left a note at Talk:Agostino Chigi: you might agree— or contradict me— there. --Wetman 14:57, 16 May 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Beginning the recognition path for 1400-1500 in fashion

I'm going to be printing out (if I can ... the pictures make it take a while and have crashed it ) the article and proofing it in preparation for listing it on peer review. After that, I'd like to nominate it for GA status. You seem to have not done much on it in a while ... I assume it's as complete as you'd like it to be?

I do think, though, that I will rename it to something like "15th century in European fashion" because you can be sure that will be brought up along the way. And the 14th-century one, as well, for consistency's sake. Is that OK with you? Daniel Case 17:17, 22 May 2007 (UTC)

It printed OK in Internet Explorer. Must have been a problem with Firefox. Daniel Case 16:28, 23 May 2007 (UTC)

I am very happy with the article as it stands - although there's always room for improvement. Let's do this.
As far as renaming, like I said somewhere, I left the naming convention as I found it. As long as we have a new standard that makes provision for odd periods like 1750-1795 in fashion, I am fine with changing the name (and we might make a case that the medieval periods are the only ones that cover a full century, so "15th century..." would work well for these. - PKM 17:37, 27 May 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Cross-Stitched Barnstar

The Cross-Stitched Barnstar
I, Eyrian, am proud to present you with this cross-stitched barnstar honoring your continued outstanding contributions to textile-arts related articles.--Eyrian 20:55, 2 June 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Confused

I'm confused. Where am I? (new user)--Hanpingz 18:48, 9 June 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Canvas

I added some in may & added a touch now. User:JNW would be the person to ask, but he is on a wikibreak. I'll drop him a line. Johnbod 17:37, 10 June 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Image:AnthonyHope TheHeardOfPrincessOsra.jpg

Ah, yes I see now - thanks for that. For it's period it is a wonderfully colourful cover example. :: Kevinalewis : (Talk Page)/(Desk) 07:46, 19 June 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Textiles reorg project

Hi PKM, just a quick note to let you know I'm still here, or hereabouts. I've been very busy over the last week or two, and haven't felt like exercising my braine too much. But I'll be back on the project after a while. Bards 22:03, 27 June 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Cross stitches

Hi PKM. You are off to such a great start on the article Cross stitches that it may qualify to appear on Wikipedia's Main Page under the Did you know... section. The Main Page gets about 4,000,000 hits per day and appearing on the Main Page may help bring publicity and assistance to the article. However, there is a five day from article creation window for Did you know... nominations. Before five days pass from the date the article was created and if you haven't already done so, please consider nominating the article to appear on the Main Page by posting a nomination at Did you know suggestions. If you do nominate the article for DYK, please cross out the article name on the "Good" articles proposed by bot list. Also, don't forget to keep checking back at Did you know suggestions for comments regarding your nomination. Again, great job on the article. -- Jreferee (Talk) 23:13, 4 July 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Couching (embroidery)

Updated DYK query On 8 July 2007, Did you know? was updated with a fact from the article Couching (embroidery), which you created or substantially expanded. If you know of another interesting fact from a recently created article, then please suggest it on the Did you know? talk page.

--GeeJo (t)⁄(c) • 20:28, 8 July 2007 (UTC)

[edit] cross stitches

Updated DYK query On 10 July 2007, Did you know? was updated with a fact from the article cross stitches, which you created or substantially expanded. If you know of another interesting fact from a recently created article, then please suggest it on the Did you know? talk page.

--GeeJo (t)⁄(c) • 10:42, 10 July 2007 (UTC)

[edit] DYK

Updated DYK query On 18 July 2007, Did you know? was updated with a fact from the article John Henry Dearle, which you created or substantially expanded. If you know of another interesting fact from a recently created article, then please suggest it on the Did you know? talk page.

--Carabinieri 22:04, 18 July 2007 (UTC)


Updated DYK query On July 27, 2007, Did you know? was updated with a fact from the article Double cloth, which you created or substantially expanded. If you know of another interesting fact from a recently created article, then please suggest it on the Did you know? talk page.

Hi PKM and well done on the many textile DYKs. You have earned yourself the pictured slot! Blnguyen (bananabucket) 08:15, 27 July 2007 (UTC)

[edit] quilting history

I couldn't figure out how to write to you. I hope this is right. I am quite busy this summer but in the fall I will plan to add to the history of quiling page including pictures and additional periods in quilting history. Today I am addressing the need for citation on how early quilting was done.

--User:quiltpatch 22:04, 18 July 2007

I decided to try making a little illustration for each section with my quilt pattern software. I have one for Baltimore Album but haven't a clue how to upload a picture. I looked at the information on it and it's all quite overwhelming.

Quiltpatch 06:32, 27 July 2007 (UTC)

Go here: http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Commons:Upload Click "my own work" and follow the prompts. Let me know if that works. - PKM 23:08, 27 July 2007 (UTC)

I put a couple of pictures on History of Quilting. What do you think? Is it worth doing some more? It would be better to have real antique quilts or reproduction quilts pictures but this is something to give some illustrations until someone with real quilt pictures comes along.

Quiltpatch 09:05, 29 July 2007 (UTC)

I think these are great!!! Nice and clear and show the distinctions between the styles. Thanks so much for making these. I;m glad you sorted out uploading. - PKM 16:07, 29 July 2007 (UTC)

Quiltpatch

Apparently the illustrations I made have been deleted because I have no licence for them. I don't understand this, I made the illustratons myself. They belong to me. Anyway any help would be appreciated. I don't know why Wikipedia makes things so complicated.