User talk:PJHaseldine

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Welcome!

Hello, PJHaseldine, and welcome to Wikipedia! Thank you for your contributions. I hope you like the place and decide to stay. Here are some pages that you might find helpful:

I hope you enjoy editing here and being a Wikipedian! Please sign your name on talk pages using four tildes (~~~~); this will automatically produce your name and the date. If you need help, check out Wikipedia:Questions, ask me on my talk page, or place {{helpme}} on your talk page and someone will show up shortly to answer your questions. Again, welcome!  Just H 18:46, 30 December 2006 (UTC)

Contents

[edit] Emails to Professor Black

Two recent emails to Professor Robert Black are recorded here and here.PJHaseldine (talk) 10:59, 3 February 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Amendments/edits to Civil Cooperation Bureau page.

Patrick,

Thanks for completing the suggested edits to the above page so well. We were trying to framework (somehow) the right words, which you then introduced - well.

A question might be - if Magnus Malan, in Para 15 said his orders to the SADF were to "destroy the terrorists, destroy their bases etc" then followed up by "./.....and I never authorised any member of the SADF to kill political opponents...etc ...."...is this not contradictory - or in your interpretation, would a political opponent who chose to associate with activies and actions that could be termed "terrorist/terrorism" then fall into the category mentioned first.

I am busy with a comparative analysis of justifications, activities, actions and morals between several past Government initiated covert groups. Primarily the CCB, SOS and the SOE. I have also been provided with almost unlimited access to the historical archives and information on the SOE.

Thanks again for a good edit on the above page.

BSRCR 20:56, 17 May 2008 (UTC)

Responded on CCB talk page.PJHaseldine (talk) 12:38, 18 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Conspiracy theories and your namesake

If you can provide a WP:RS that someone other than PJH or his solicitor has stated that he was dismissed because of the letter to the The Guardian, then it might be appropropriate in the article. (If there were a reliable source that he was dismissed for that reason, it would clearly be appropriate.) So far, it hasn't been done. I admit that I haven't searched, but your insistence in including unsourced information about PJH is disturbing, in terms of WP:BLP and WP:COI. — Arthur Rubin (talk) 21:16, 26 May 2008 (UTC)

I think you will agree that the following extract from Decision №18957/92 by the European Commission on Human Rights is the required reliable source:

"On 5 December 1988 the applicant wrote a letter to The Guardian newspaper. It was published on 7 December 1988. In the letter the applicant accused the British Prime Minister of "self-righteous invective" in criticising the Belgian and Irish handling of a request by the United Kingdom for the extradition of an Irish citizen. The applicant referred to a decision made in 1984 to allow four South Africans remanded in custody on arms embargo charges to leave the United Kingdom after a South African Embassy official agreed to waive his diplomatic immunity and to stand surety for them. The four did not return to the United Kingdom. The applicant stated, inter alia, that "rumour has it that Mrs Thatcher was rather annoyed with the over-zealous officials who caused the four military personnel to be arrested in Britain. Rightly, she refused to accede to the South African embassy's demand for the case to be dropped but she was keen for the Embassy to know precisely how the legal hurdles governing their release and the return of their passports could be swiftly overcome.... Clearly, Mrs Thatcher wanted the....detainees safely out of UK jurisdiction, back in South Africa and off the agenda well before her June 1984 talks at Chequers with the two visiting Bothas." The applicant supplied his work address (Information Department, Foreign and Commonwealth Office). From 7 December 1988 until 4 April 1989 the applicant was suspended on full pay. On 20 December 1988 the Head of the Personnel Policy Department submitted a formal complaint against the applicant in respect of the publication of the letter. On 21 March 1989, acting on the advice of the Disciplinary Board, whose view was that the applicant by publishing the letter had committed various disciplinary offences constituting breaches of the Diplomatic Service Regulations, the Secretary of State decided that the applicant should be called upon to resign or, failing that, be dismissed on 4 April 1989. During the course of the proceedings before the Board, the applicant had submitted, inter alia, that he had written the letter because he wanted his grievances to be known and did not wish to be dismissed quietly. He had refused to answer questions concerning the source of his information for the letter. On 22 March 1989 the applicant asked the Secretary of State to reconsider his decision. On 4 April 1989 the Secretary of State referred the matter to the No. 2 Diplomatic Service Appeal Board. On 5 May 1989 the Appeal Board met. The applicant presented his case before the Board. He was accompanied by his wife. He stated, inter alia, that he had written the letter in order to air his grievances and because of his fear of what might happen when the Official Secrets Act became law. He maintained his refusal to answer questions concerning the source of his information for the letter. He also stated that he did not think the letter breached any specific regulations. By letter dated 19 July 1989 the applicant was informed that the Appeal Board had concluded, inter alia, that in writing to The Guardian he had committed a serious disciplinary offence and that if he maintained his refusal to resign the Secretary of State would confirm his dismissal. On 2 August 1989 the applicant was dismissed."

I suggest that my Conspiracy theory entry should be revised as follows:

"* Patrick Haseldine (born 1942) - is a former British diplomat who was dismissed by the Thatcher government for writing a letter to The Guardian newspaper on 7 December 1988, and who subsequently assembled a dossier of evidence to incriminate apartheid South Africa for the 21 December 1988 Lockerbie bombing."

If you agree, please revise the entry accordingly.PJHaseldine (talk) 11:57, 27 May 2008 (UTC)
It still doesn't seem quite to cover the issue. It appears the ECHR agreed with HMG that someone in his position, with access to sensitive information, shouldn't be criticising the government. The source didn't say he was dismissed because of tjat criticism or the letter; the previous "box 5" report seemed adequate justification (to the ECHR) for that. There still seems no reference for the "dossier" statement, although I'm sure we can find one somewhere. (Again, it should be noted there are no references to the "dossier" section of Patrick Haseldine, either. It seems, at least a marginal application of WP:BLP, that it might be deleted.) I think the first sentence could be written:

"* Patrick Haseldine (born 1942) - is a former British diplomat who, having had a previous unsatisfactory performance review, was dismissed by the Thatcher government for writing a letter to The Guardian newspaper on 7 December 1988.

It would have been more helpful if you had noted this on Talk:Patrick Haseldine or the talk page of the article in question, as is proper under WP:COI. — Arthur Rubin (talk) 13:02, 27 May 2008 (UTC)
Thank you for these comments.
In 1991, I applied to the ECHR for a ruling that my dismissal for writing to The Guardian constituted a breach of my Article 10 right to freedom of expression. In 1992, as the above Decision №18957/92 makes clear:

"The Commission notes that the applicant was dismissed as a result of the publication in a newspaper of a letter in which he expressed certain opinions on the then Prime Minister's attitude to South Africa. The Commission considers that the applicant's dismissal constituted an interference in the exercise of his freedom of expression."

However, the ECHR Decision went on to say:

"In the circumstances of the present case, the Commission considers that, in view of the particular professional responsibilities incumbent on the applicant and the specific nature of his work, the United Kingdom authorities were reasonably justified in dismissing him. The interference with the applicant's exercise of his freedom of expression could therefore be regarded as necessary in a democratic society for preventing the disclosure of information received in confidence, within the meaning of Article 10 para. 2 (Art. 10-2) of the Convention."

The ECHR was not required to deal with the matter of my job appraisal and performance box markings at the FCO, and did not comment on them. Thus, I think you should remove "having had a previous unsatisfactory performance review" from your proposed first sentence.
I shall look for a suitable source for the "dossier" statement: this might take some time.
Meanwhile, would it be a good idea to transfer this whole section to my talk page, as you have suggested?PJHaseldine (talk) 17:34, 27 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Content of Guardian letters

Have you considered moving the contents of User talk:PJHaseldine/Archive 3 to an internet page or blog site? That way, you can say what you like without anyone on Wikipedia getting after you for POV/self-publishing/soapboxing, yet the content will still be available online for any Wiki editor that's interested. Most ISP's offer free web space - failing that, there are many sites available offering a free service... Socrates2008 (Talk) 09:19, 2 June 2008 (UTC)

Thank you for this suggestion. I have no plans to move User talk:PJHaseldine/Archive 3 which I regard as a valuable resource to be used by Wikipedia editors in improving a whole range of articles — not just the Patrick Haseldine article. I hope you will find it useful for that purpose.PJHaseldine (talk) 15:57, 2 June 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Follow policies

See closing of MFD debate. Please follow wiki polices. — Rlevse • Talk • 23:29, 4 June 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Image:PatrickHaseldine3.jpg listed for deletion

An image or media file that you uploaded or altered, Image:PatrickHaseldine3.jpg, has been listed at Wikipedia:Images and media for deletion. Please see the discussion to see why this is (you may have to search for the title of the image to find its entry), if you are interested in it not being deleted. Rather than fighting about fair use violation, copyright violation, or improper use in BLP articles, I've requested IFD discussion. Please comment there, rather than on the image talk page. — Arthur Rubin (talk) 00:03, 5 June 2008 (UTC) .