Talk:Pittsburgh English

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Contents 1 IPA and Cleanup 2 I was interested to see 3 Just an extra little note on this... 4 Yunz 5 The 'tahl' in the bathroom 6 Now I'm scared... 7 Chimbley 8 Upstreet 9 are these really pittsburgh-specific? 10 References? 11 Gumband 12 Re-write 13 "Havting to..." 14 Yinzbonics 15 Pronunciation of "Down" 16 Rubber band/gum band 17 Citations 18 Please find citations for the following: 18.1 Pronunciations 19 Fire plug 20 !!NOTICE: PAGE OVERHAUL IN EXACTLY ONE WEEK!! 21 Pop 22 Whither jagoff? 23 Zenci?! 24 About /l/ -> [w] 25 "or" for "ur" substitution 26 "picksburgh" 27 You Guys 28 'n'at 29 Well done! 30 "O" Fronting 31 "Needs -ed"

[edit] IPA and Cleanup

Sorry for not logging in to make the IPA changes.

I converted the pronunciation to IPA as best I could. The original had a few ambiguities that I had trouble handling. For instance /ej/ /ij/ etc. are not diphthongs used in English (see International Phonetic Alphabet for English). Someone with better linguistic background and a more intimate understanding of the dialect should check what I have done. Original author: Is there a source where someone can read more about this?

I grew up in northwest Pennsylvania, an area which is considered by linguists to use a Pittsburgh dialect, but in fact has a distinct but related dialect with peculiarities of its own. Many elements of Pittsburgh English are present, some, especially neologisms are not.

Also, Pittsburgh English is the only Midland dialect where the cot-caught merger occurs. See [1].

No, you're wrong. Pittsburgh English is not the only dialect in the Midland where the cot-caught merger occurs. 208.104.45.20 (talk) 04:14, 9 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] I was interested to see

Yunz forgot keller (color)

I agree; "keller" should definitely be mentioned. Seansinc 16:42, 10 October 2007 (UTC)

• neb v. to investigate or take interest in things which are none of one's business. He was nebbin' around in my business.

In Yorkshire, England neb is a dialect word for nose, and the expression "get yer neb out" is often used to mean "mind your own business. Could this be the origin?

Can't say for certain, but it's very possible.. kwertii

This really is poorly written, and is designed more to provoke attention and amuse than it is a good article about the local speech. I'm sure regional pride can be fun, but it belongs someplace other than Wikipedia. Improv

"Neb" is short for "nebbish" (orig. nebech) in Yiddish/Yinglish. It basically means a weak, pathetic, pitiful person. With its significant Jewish neighborhoods, Pittsburgh surely got it from Yiddish/Yinglish. It's quite common in the Greater New York area. You can check the reference in The Joys of Yiddish. -- CJ Withers 01:00, 13 March 2006 (UTC)

While I'm sure your information on "nebbish" is accurate, in Pittsburgh, "nebby" is usually used in the same sense as "nosy," rather than pitiful or pathetic. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 216.151.119.42 (talk) 14:52, 4 December 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Just an extra little note on this...

Another item that I felt might have been left out...

our as in hour becomes ahr (a as in affect). Examples: "haur" (hour), "saur" (sour), and "scaur" (scour)

Definitely seems to be a German derivation to me.

[edit] Yunz

I've lived in Pittsburgh my whole life and I've never heard a real Pittsburgher say yunz. Real Pittsburghers say Yinz. Kennywood Park had a billboard advertising a new Hawaiian-themed section of the park that read "Aloha, yinz guys". Now that's Pittsburgh!

• Yes, well, I've also known Pittsburghers who distinguished sides of their family, who lived on opposite sides of the city, by whether they were Yinzers or Yunzers---whether they said yinz or yunz. Guess it just goes to show that regional variation is, well, regional. . . . Juicy 03:11, 13 February 2006 (UTC)

• I say it all the time, yet never noticed if I say yunz or yinz, or a difference when others say it. I'm still not sure, hmm. It might even be possible for yenz. I'm confident, though, that the variation exists because the way people interpret things differently. Two people listening to the same person talking might call it different. Sounds like yieunz to me! Automagically 04:29, 25 April 2006 (UTC)

• I lived in PA for a number of years, while a student at Penn State. I met people from all over the state there. I got the impression that Pittsburgh and points south is "yinz" territory, while "yunz" is what you hear to the north and east of there, i.e. places like State College, Bellefont, Altoona. I think both forms are restricted to south-western and central PA.

• I grew up about an hour north of Pittsburgh (Mars, PA), and I lived in the Oakland section of Pittsburgh during college, and I've never once heard it pronounced "yunz". We always said "yins" (which, incidentally, we would spell with an 's' on the rare occasions when we'd write it down -- notes passed in study hall or the like). A friend of mine, who's never lived in PA, swears he knew some "yunzers" from the Altoona area, but I have yet to meet one. Seansinc 18:44, 9 October 2007 (UTC)

[edit] The 'tahl' in the bathroom

I grew up in the Pittsburgh region but have mostly lost my accent (strangely enough, I lost it while attending Carnegie-Mellon, due to all the non-Pittsburghers surrounding me and making fun of how I talked!). One time, after I converted to more standard English, my mother managed to say something I couldn't understand due to her Pittsburgh accent. It involved the color of the tile, or maybe towel, in the bathroom -- both of which would, of course, be pronouned "tahl".

One other vocab word that I think should be mentioned on this page is "crick", meaning a stream of water. I still can't bring myself to say "creek" -- all these years later, that still sounds completely stilted to me.

I added "crick." I have also encountered the same issues with using it in my spoken vocabulary. I always sneak out and say "stream," but a proper noun occasionally sneaks by and causes a moral dilemma. Undercooked

I grew up 250 miles northeast of Pittsburgh and I learned it as "crick." Lowrydr310

I once saw a map which charted the areas of the U.S. where each colloquialism for stream was used. "Crick", "creek", "spout", "run" and "lick" were all mapped, along with several others that escape me. "Crick" was definitely not limited to Pittsburgh. It was very interesting. I'll try to hunt it down. —Xanderer 01:41, 25 May 2006 (UTC)

I grew up in Moon Township, and we used both "crick" and "creek"... I understood a crick to be a very narrow flowing body of water (less than 6 feet wide), the type that one often encounters while walking through the woods, whereas a creek is wider and possibly deeper (i.e. Montour Creek).

[edit] Now I'm scared...

I grew up in Brackenridge, just 20 miles up the Allegheny from the 'Burgh. I moved to Omaha eight years ago and my accent, which was never quite that strong, has dissipated over time. When I go back to Pennsylvania to visit, I fall right back into "dahntahn n'at", because all of the people there speak that way. Until you've been gone for a while and returned, you just don't realize how thick the accent is.

Anyway, I was very amused by this webpage. There are a few entries I had not heard before, but mostly I could relate to everything. But there was one point here that really confused me. The entry discussing the "cot-caught merger". I didn't understand the difference between the two words. I sat at my desk repeating them over and over. I pronounce them exactly the same.

I have spent the last hour walking around my work center asking people to pronounce the two words. I have been shocked to discover that to everyone else, they are pronounced differently. Scary stuff.

Heh. I always think of first names "Don" and "Dawn" as having identical pronunciations, but apparently that's also a Pittsburghism. -- Ventura 23:58, 2005 Feb 1 (UTC)

I never noticed any difference between caught/cot or Don/Dawn. I grew up in Northeast PA, lived in Pittsburgh for four years, lived in Houston, lived in LA for a while, and now I'm in New York. In NY and NJ, caught/cot and Don/Dawn are pronounced differently. Strangely enough the Pittsburgh accent never bothered me. The NY/NJ and New England (Boston) accents I now have to hear on a daily basis drive me nuts sometimes!Lowrydr310

I say 'dawn' and 'don' and 'cot' and 'caught' the same too, and I am from Kansas, it's not just you.Cameron Nedland 01:54, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Chimbley

I added 'chimbley' to the list, after hearing it a lot when I attended the Art Institute. So much that I looked up the roots of the word one day. --Poorpaddy 06:58, 13 Jun 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Upstreet

An expression I recall from growing up in the South Hills is "Upstreet", meaning your local community's shopping district. I guess this might have originated form the geography of the region; many of the main commercial roads, like Brownsville, Washington, Broadway, Brookline, run along ridgelines, while the residential areas tend to be down "in the hollers". "Downtown" or "Dahntahn" typically refers only to Downtown Pittsburgh proper.

I also second the mention of "tahl" for either towel or tile. That's almost the principle way I recognize 'Burghers out here in Cali. "'E 'ed a whole pahl uh at 'ere oak fahrwood."

Thanks, Shep

[edit] are these really pittsburgh-specific?

A few of the examples are Pittsburgh-specific, but most of them sound familiar to me from when I lived in Chicago. In particular, "didja" for "did you", and sometimes turning "you" and "to" into "yuh" and "tuh". --Delirium 05:18, 14 November 2005 (UTC)

A good half of the lexical entries are not unique to Pittsburgh. Some belong to general rapid speech, others to American English in general and even more to Greater NYC, all of New Jersey and Eastern Pennsylvania (esp. Hoagie!! in Philly and Southern Jersey). It's disinformation to say they belong to Pittsburgh. Therefore they shouldn't be on the list at all. -- CJ Withers 01:05, 13 March 2006 (UTC)

I was thinking a lot of the terms on that list are too general. For example, "cha" in whatcha doing, I think everyone does that. Some are good though, like hoagie, gumband, jaggerbush, younz, etc. I lived in NC for a while and people looked at me weird hearing me say those words. One addition I was thinking, is "warsh". As in "warsh the car" and "warshington". Sounds like "woorsh". Automagically 18:43, 23 April 2006 (UTC)

I agree, whatcha doing is probably universal among English speakers of all dialects. "Warsh" is definitely not just Philadelphia though; my mother says "warsh" and she grew up in L.A.. Angr (talk • contribs) 20:18, 23 April 2006 (UTC)

Only a very few of these words are really Pittsburgh specific, like gumband. Some of them like "worsh" and "crick" come from the Scots-Irish American dialect which explains why they're found in scattered enclaves all over the place - including Pittsburgh, southern California, and parts of the southeast. Anyplace where the Scots-Irish settled in large numbers you're likely to hear them pronounced that way. Some of the other words are specific to the Rust Belt in general, not just Pittsburgh. They can be found from Washington-Baltimore all the way to Chicago. This goes in particular for the street-tough sounding blue collar pronunciations; I picked up a lot of it in Chicago and Pittsburgh's pronunciations don't sound much different. "Yinz" is specific to Pittsburgh but I've heard other variations of "you uns" used ranging from southern Illinois to the Navajo reservation in Arizona. Know what? I'd leave them all in. It's the unique combination that makes Pittsburgh English what it is, not just the few words that are specific only to da'Burgh.

[edit] References?

What references are needed for the direct terms? Most of it is probally from "experience"/tradition by living in Pittsburgh. --Weatherman1126 15:23, 28 January 2006 (UTC)

All information on Wikipedia needs to be verifiable and backed up with published sources. Personal experience isn't good enough. Some dictionaries, such as the American Heritage Dictionary, indicate that word is used only in a specific region, so if you can find a citation from one of those that the word in question is unique to Pittsburgh, then that's citing a source. Published dialect surveys and atlases will also often show what words are used where, so that's another place to look for verification. --Angr 16:14, 28 January 2006 (UTC)

Scott Kiesling did an excellent paper on Pittsburghese (pronunciation and some lexical items). Why wasn't his work cited? It's really easy to find on the Internet: just put his name in and "Pittsburghese" and voilà! Here's the link anyway: [2] -- CJ Withers 01:05, 13 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Gumband

Grew up near the old Greater Pittsburg Airport/National Guard base and I always say Gumband when I am referring to a rubber band. This is deeply ingrained in me, as are many of these other regional colloquialisms. It may be more accurate to parse this into two words such as Gum band, however I must leave that debate to other, more learned colleagues.

[edit] Re-write

This article flip-flops among the terms "dialect", "pronunciation", "Pittsburghese", "vocabulary", etc. Therefore, I suggest a re-write focusing on (1.) pronunciation, (2.) vocabulary, (3.) perceptions, (4.) crossroads (i.e. proximity to the South, Central, Mid-Atlantic, North/Lake Cities areas), (5.) other pronunciations (African-Americans, new Pittsburghers) (6.) presence of Italians and Slavs and how/if they affected the language, e.g. "Gutchies" or "Gotchies" is not Pittsburgh-specific, it's Polish/Ukranian all over the diaspora. -- CJ Withers 01:12, 13 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] "Havting to..."

I was born and grew up in the southern U.S. but have attended college for the last 4 years in western Pennsylvania. I've experienced much of the Pittsburgh dialect first-hand, and I have to admit that it's pretty interesting. One thing I've heard a lot since coming to this region, especially from people who grew up in the western Pennsylvania area is the phrase "havting to" instead of "having to". For example, "He didn't like havting to wash the car when it was so cold outside." I don't hear it quite so much in other contexts, like "They were having dinner." Can anyone shed light on this word, and whether it fits in with "Pittsburghese" or is some other linguistic oddity? I didn't see it in this article, and I can't find a solid reference to it anywhere on the internet, but I hear it all the time in western Pennsylvania. I know this talk page isn't meant to be a linguistics discussion forum, but if there's some credence to this then I'd like to know more and perhaps get it added to the article. --Nothlit 03:19, 3 April 2006 (UTC)

Yes, living in Pittsburgh, I've noticed this as well. It's only really used in present tense though, like "I havet to go home now.", but it's not really used as "havting." There's also sometimes an "S" and a "T" at the end of the word "want", such as, "The dog wanst out." However, that's only done referring to he or she, not to you, I or we.

[edit] Yinzbonics

Though I'm not a Pittsburgh native, I have lived here for six years. I've never heard, anywhere, save from this Wikipedia page, anyone refer to the Pittsburgh dialect as "Yinzbonics." Is there any sort of source for this? I'm not prepared to change it, for I do not know if it is wrong or if I just am ignorant on the subject. I, myself, have always been partial to the "Yinzer dialect." But seriously, does anyone have some reference to the use of "Yinzbonics"? Sixtus LXVI 04:26, 4 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Pronunciation of "Down"

I slightly changed the way it was listing by adding and "h" after the "a" so it says "dahn." Living in Pittsburgh, I've never heard it pronounced as "dan", like the guys name, rather the "ow" is pronounced like the word "ah."

I reverted your change, because the pronunciation was given in the International Phonetic Alphabet, which uses different symbols for vowel sounds than English orthography does. Angr (talk) 17:03, 7 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Rubber band/gum band

I've heard rubber band used in Pittsburgh, but more often I've heard gum band. I'm not sure which one to put under the section of "dictionary entries". SilverBulletx3_chatteh 17:38, 17 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Citations

The vast majority of these terms are not cited. These citations need to be added within the next week or I will be deleting them. There is a references section, but that's not the same thing as citing; individual terms need to be sourcable. --Chris Griswold 17:06, 11 July 2006 (UTC)

Hear, hear. User:Angr 19:38, 11 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Please find citations for the following:

[edit] Pronunciations

• Unlike other Midland dialects, /ɑ/ and /ɔ/ are merged as /ɔ/; cot and caught are homophones (Labov, Ash, and Boberg 2006: 59–60, 271).
  • This was sourced, as you see; I don't know why you removed it. User:Angr 09:43, 25 July 2006 (UTC)

That was an accident; the first time I removed these, I deleted them, but then I decided it might want to offer other editors one more chance to cite them. This one appears to have gotten mixed in with the others the second time around. The lack of proper reference tags made it a little more difficult. --Chris Griswold 15:30, 25 July 2006 (UTC)

• The first stress in a word often becomes the primary one: pro'nunci,ation.^{[citation needed]}
• Syllabic r as in hurt is a rhotacized mid front vowel, rather than a rhotacized mid central vowel in General American.^{[citation needed]}
• Vocalic nuclei are rarely rounded.^{[citation needed]}
• When not monophthongized, the nuclei of diphthongs shift toward [æ], especially in enunciated speech: [eɪ] becomes [ɛɪ] or [æɪ], [iː] becomes [ɪ], [uː] becomes [ɪʊ], and [oʊ] becomes [əʊ] or [ɛʊ]. This appears to be on the increase, used by young people proud of their local heritage.^{[citation needed]}
• As in many dialects of American English, [æ] before [n] [m] or [ɹ] and [eɪ] before [ɹ]}} or [l] standardly change to a diphthong [ɛə]. This new phoneme often merges into [æ], especially among younger Pittsburghers. This second merger creates a new set of homonyms such as pal and pale.^{[citation needed]}
• [l] is "dark" (i.e. velarized), and sometimes purely velar, postvocalically and often in other positions.^{[citation needed]}
• Stops, including nasal stops, are flapped and voiced noninitially before vowels in rapid speech.^{[citation needed]}
• Epenthetic r occurs after vowels in a small number of words, e.g. wash becomes [wɔɹʃ].^{[citation needed]}
• The h is commonly dropped from the beginning of many words, e.g. here/ear hear/ear.^{[citation needed]}

[edit] Fire plug

I grew up in Moon Tahnship, and now I live in Louisiana. When I went back to visit, someone told me, "Don't park by the fire plug." I had forgotten what a fire plug was, until I looked over and saw the hydrant.

[edit] !!NOTICE: PAGE OVERHAUL IN EXACTLY ONE WEEK!!

I moved this to its own subpage. This should make the rest of the talk page more readable. —jakarr 23:25, 16 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Pop

God Could you people miss something so simple as the fact that we (Pittsburhers) say Pop instead of Soda. Lego3400: The Sage of Time 02:22, 26 November 2006 (UTC)

That's not at all limited to Pittsburgh. --Chris Griswold (☎☓) 08:33, 26 November 2006 (UTC)

We say that in Kansas.Cameron Nedland 01:59, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Whither jagoff?

"jagoff" is common Pittsburghese for "jerk," right? Sounds to me like it's related to "jagger." I've never heard the term used anywhere else, but it does show up in some Hollywood movie scripts. I used to keep a list, but all I can remember is Joe Pesci calling someone a jagoff in The_Public_Eye_(film). 0-0-0-Destruct-0 01:41, 16 January 2007 (UTC)

You're over-thinking it: It's just diluted pronunciation of "jackoff" —x a n d e r e r 10:47, 19 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Zenci?!

Did anyone see the lastest addition to the dictionary items on this page?

"Zenci n. Negro (www.eurodict.com). Example: “The zenci stole my bycicle.” Geographic distribution: From the western edge of the Alleghenies to beyond the Ohio line (see above citation)."

I removed it because a) I did not find it on the page listed; b) even if I had, the term still isn't documented by published scholarly source; c) this person simply cut and pasted the geographic from another entry; d) most importantly, the word is presented in a hateful way. Assuming the most generous interpretation, that the word is used to mean "African-American" or "Black person," I could conclude that the word isn't in itself hateful. But the example sentence presents a bald stereotype.

Who on earth thought this was appropriate? It wasn't verified by a reputable source, and it was presented in a hateful way. This sort of behavior is what may end up separating wiki from brittanica.

I don't know if it was meant to be presented in a hateful way (assuming good faith here) but I raised an eyebrow on this one too. I've never heard it before anyway. I'm reverting. If it comes back, we'll discuss further. --Midnightdreary 15:10, 1 August 2007 (UTC)

Oops... it's already been reverted since I was here last. --Midnightdreary 15:12, 1 August 2007 (UTC)

using this logic, the article on the KKK is racist as well. i can't understand how you saw this as racist. 71.60.151.41 21:19, 3 October 2007 (UTC)

I was about to remove this myself. I can't find any reference to this term anywhere else as being part of the Pittsburgh dialect, so whether or not it was intended as racist vandalism, it has nothing to do with the subject of the article. No other site devoted to Pittsburghese (including www.pittsburghese.com) lists it, and I've never heard the term, despite my Yinzer roots. The only reference given is a Turkish-English dictionary, which doesn't prove anything about the word being part of Pittsburgh English.

Also, it does sound like racist vandalism. Did the author really think "Negro" was a better definition than "Black person", "African American", "Person of color", etc.? And why pick an example sentence that portrays blacks as criminals?

If the author comes forward and provides some evidence that this term should be included, then it should be. Otherwise, it should remain deleted. Seansinc 19:08, 9 October 2007 (UTC)

[edit] About /l/ -> [w]

Under the list of phonological features, the one describing the /l/ -> [w] allophony gives the example "color something like [kʌwɚ]"; in my experience, it's more like [kʌlɚ]; the /l/ becomes [w] only where it becomes velarized ("dark" l) in standard American English -- when it's not directly in front of a nucleus. - 207.255.69.226 22:07, 1 August 2007 (UTC)

[edit] "or" for "ur" substitution

Project editors: please add information and citations for the Pittsburgh/Western PA speech substitution that causes the General American pronunciation of "during" to become "door-ing." (Sorry, I'm not a linguist, so I don't know the phonetic alphabet symbols or authoritative sources.) Anecdotally, this seems to occur when the "ur" sound follows an initial consonant, especially "d," but not when "ur" is in the initial position. E.g., "urgent" retains a General American pronunciation in the Pittsburgh area. However, in the post-consonant position in some area speakers, "tour" becomes "tore," "poor" becomes "pour" and "rural" becomes "roar-ul." The most noticable case, I believe, is "ur" folllowing initial "d," as in "during" / "door-ing." Mike sheridan 19:18, 21 August 2007 (UTC)

[edit] "picksburgh"

i've lived in pittsburgh all my life, and i hear people use this corruption a lot, much more than they do "yinz" or "jumbo". are there any objections to adding it? 71.60.151.41 21:16, 3 October 2007 (UTC)

I heard that pronunciation a lot when I was growing up, too. I would be in favor of including it. Seansinc 16:40, 10 October 2007

(UTC) Having grown up in the Pittsburgh area, I can totally agree with your citing of "Picksburgh". I'd like to make "sment" (cement) my contribution to the list.

[edit] You Guys

I know that "you guys" was already previously mentioned, but I did not see a complete meaning to this vocabulary. "You guys" does refer to a group of two or more people, as stated. One fact that makes this truly Southwestern Pennsylvanian is that the phrase refers to a group of two or more people that may include people of both genders. This is what makes the use of "you guys" distinct to the area. If there are no objections, I believe this needs to be clarified and added. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.43.98.145 (talk) 03:00, 22 October 2007 (UTC)

[edit] 'n'at

I have no links to back this up, but I've heard folks in the Chicago area use "and that" similarly. IE, in place of "and such things". —Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.167.248.233 (talk) 22:10, 30 December 2007

[edit] Well done!

Just a note to say that I found this page to be exceptionally well organized; I wish all the pages on {{English dialects}} were similarly organized. 68.238.229.137 (talk) 19:30, 29 January 2008 (UTC)

Just posting to second that remark. This page is pretty well put together, though I'm not a fan of IPA pronunciations as I've never taken the time to learn them. I have a lot of family from the burgh and spent a good portion of my early childhood there. The one aspect of the Pittsburgh accent that I find to be most noticeable and the one that is still part of the way I talk is the use of a falling intonation at the end of questions. Everyone notices it about me, and it's usually how I peg people as being from the burgh. -Gulp Dratsum (talk) 17:49, 31 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] "O" Fronting

There is nothing in this article about the fronting of "o's", which seems to be quite common in Pittsburgh. I realize this is more of a Midland trait, and that it is not necessarily unique to Pittsburgh; however, I think it should be mentioned because it distinguishes the Pittsburgh dialect from the nearby Inland North. 208.104.45.20 (talk) 19:58, 6 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] "Needs -ed"

I don't know if this is Pittsburgh/Western-PA-specific, but a part of the dialect which I've never noticed anywhere else is the "needs -ed" construction. For instance, one might say, "That shirt needs cleaned" rather than "That shirt needs to be cleaned." I'm from Johnstown, so I imagine that the dialect holds true in Pittsburgh as well. Any thoughts? AramKolesar (talk) 19:10, 20 May 2008 (UTC)

It's mentioned in the [Pennsylvania Dutch English] article, so this construction appears at least elsewhere in PA. I can't say where else it is used because I generally only notice it when another person finds my phrasing to be strange. —jakarr 23:16, 20 May 2008 (UTC)