Talk:Pinotage

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

	Wine Portal Pinotage is part of WikiProject Wine, which aims to improve Wikipedia's coverage of wines, grapes, wine producers and wine growing regions. Please work to improve this article, or visit our project page where you can join the project and find other ways of helping.
Start	This article has been rated as start-Class on the assessment scale.
High	This article has been rated as High-importance on the importance scale within WikiProject Wine.
Assessment comments This article has been rated for quality and/or importance but has no comments yet. If appropriate, please review the article and then leave comments here to identify the strengths and weaknesses of the article and what work it will need.
	It is requested that a picture or pictures be included in this article to improve its quality.
WikiProject Wine open tasks Make visible or invisible by clicking Show or Hide, respectively. Here are some tasks you can do for WikiProject Wine: Article request: Charles Krug, John Patchett, Global warming and wine, Mesoclimate, History of French wine, History of German wine, History of Spanish wine, History of Italian wine, California wine regions, Vine training systems, wine list Expand: any of the ~1000 wine stubs, particularly the region and "miscellaneous" ones Improve: Cabernet Franc, Canadian wine, Greek wine, Sangiovese, Vitis vinifera, wine serving temperature, other Start class articles Articles to GA: Wine, Australian wine, Bordeaux wine, Burgundy wine, California wine, Champagne (wine), Chianti, Dessert wine, French wine, German wine, Grenache, Italian wine, Merlot, Pinot gris, Pinot noir, Rioja (wine), Sauvignon blanc, Shiraz (grape), Spanish wine, Sparkling wine, Winemaking, Zinfandel Articles to FA: Cabernet Sauvignon, Riesling, Tempranillo Cleanup: Table wine, Wine competition, Wine tasting, red links in Spanish_wine_regions Peer review:Tempranillo, Wikipedia:Wikipedia is not a wine guide, Alcohol in the Bible Copyedit: Aligoté, Cabernet franc, Chenin blanc, Malbec, Robert M. Parker, Jr., Pinot blanc, Rioja (wine), Tempranillo Photo request: Just about all of them! Any pictures of wine regions, grape varieties or wine would be useful. In particular we need wine region maps that can be licensed for Wikipedia. Collaboration: Operation stub-killer, Nominations for top level importance Wine Improvement Drive: French wine Infobox: Template:Infobox grape variety, Template:Infobox Winery Other: Comment on the grape article template and on the grape infobox. view • edit • discuss • history • watch

	Africa Portal This article is within the scope of the WikiProject Africa, which collaborates on articles related to Africa in Wikipedia. To participate, you can edit this article or visit the project page for more details.
Start	This article has been rated as Start-class on the quality scale.
Mid	This article has been rated as Mid-importance on the importance scale.
	This article is supported by WikiProject South Africa. See also The South Africa Portal.
Assessment comments This article has been rated for quality and/or importance but has no comments yet. If appropriate, please review the article and then leave comments here to identify the strengths and weaknesses of the article and what work it will need.

Contents 1 Controversial? 2 Rewrite 3 Child Rape comment 3.1 Criticism section

[edit] Controversial?

I have removed the word controversial. For a start it was illogical - how could a wine variety be controversial? On the other hand controversy might surround it, but I don't believe that it does. I suspect that the writer was trying to convey the concept that the grape variety has had a chequered history of success. The word controversial in my view does not answer.Tashkop 04:50, 24 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Rewrite

Completely rewritten, really needs some photos. Has anyone got a primary source for van Rensburg's "child rape" quote? FlagSteward 19:31, 29 April 2007 (UTC)

Great rewrite. Well done. I have however reverted here the comments of Tashkop. Discussion should not be removed from talk pages. --Bduke 22:23, 29 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Child Rape comment

Is it really a "famous" assessment or needed in the article? I have to admit that it is somewhat disturbing. Agne^Cheese/^Wine 19:40, 26 December 2007 (UTC)

It doesn't seem too necessary in an encyclopedic entry on the grape, and in its current format it feels incorporated insensitively brief. For inclusion I think it needs context. MURGH ^disc. 23:55, 26 December 2007 (UTC)

It's an infamous assessment by a notorious winemaker in South Africa, where Pinotage comes from. I restored it without regard to content because it was was deleted without comment; such blanking of sourced text consitutes vandalism and should be reverted immediately on that basis alone.

Remember, Wikipedia is not censored. The comment highlights the fact that Pinotage has a history of some controversy. I must admit in looking over the History section, deleting the entire 2-sentence last paragraph won't hurt the article, although it would be a shame not to reference the cited source about this notable winemaker. -Amatulic (talk) 00:31, 27 December 2007 (UTC)

Well overall the article does need some work. While I agree that Wikipedia is not censored, I think that is meant to be taken in context and balance of the encyclopedic worth of something that is "censorable". While Pinotage is certainly controversial, I do have my doubts on the historical or "encyclopedic" nature of the comment that would merit its inclusion. Would it pass the 100 yr test? I just don't see a collective benefit that the comment has that would warrant its use. Eye catching, yes. Encyclopedic, debatable. Agne^Cheese/^Wine 00:39, 27 December 2007 (UTC)

I also agree Amatulic was right to revert on principle, but would wish a comment like that was used in a section explaining the controversy in depth rather than used as a quick 'stunner'. MURGH ^disc. 01:15, 27 December 2007 (UTC)

Looking at the history it seems that the editor removed the statement before without comment and was reverted by Bduke. I'll mention this conversation to the editor and see if we can get any clarifying comments. Agne^Cheese/^Wine 01:27, 27 December 2007 (UTC)

I recall I reverted it because it was properly referenced. It is a bit over the top, but much of what is said about wine is over the top or pretentious. I guess I just have the Australian pretty robust view on language. As another example of this, I have just received for Christmas, "Quaff 2008". The author grades the wines he includes into three categories, "bloody good", "good" and "pretty good". I doubt "bloody good" would be accepted in the US or UK, but nobody bats an eyelid here. --Bduke (talk) 02:49, 27 December 2007 (UTC)

It's a no-brainer to keep it IMO. For one thing I think we've a systemic bias problem here - if Robert Mondavi had said the same about Zinfandel, our US editors would be crying to keep it in. Van Rensburg is more significant in his industry than Mondavi is to the US industry, he's arguably the best winemaker in SA, so his views on SA winemaking are very notable. And aside from being one of the all-time memorable quotes about viticulture (OK - it's not a long list), it's a perfect illustration of Pinotage's "controversial" history mentioned by Tashkop above in reference to the pre=rewrite version of the article. I'd suggest that you'd be hard put to find a more authoritative "nay" in any controversy on Wikipedia! My only regret is that so far I haven't been able to find a primary source for it, although it gets a mention in just about any serious article about Pinotage or van Rensburg. :-) PS. I've some Kanonkop, although not one of the 80's ones, I'll try and take a pic of it some time.... FlagSteward (talk) 13:47, 7 January 2008 (UTC)

As a US editor, I certainly would not be advocating keeping an isolated quote of Mondavi in any article-except for maybe the Mondavi article itself. While I do think that NPOV requires due weight to the controversy and criticisms of Pinotage, I think it can be done without such a bizarre quote. While I do agree that Van Rensburg is an important and influential figure (and we do need to get an article on him), I think this quote would probably be of more lasting encyclopedic relevance in his article rather than in the Pinotage article itself. I am going to do some overall work on this article, focusing particularly on the NPOV side, and offer it up for review here on how balanced it is. Agne^Cheese/^Wine 15:10, 7 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Criticism section

Update I've done some work on the article, including fashioning out a "Criticism" section. My overall concern was the WP:NPOV presentation and the weight of the criticism versus the rest of the article. I let the reliable sources be my guide and it seems while most sources make an effort to mention that there is some criticism, they rarely go beyond a few lines in saying what that criticism is about. To that extent, I think article is actually a little "unbalanced" in including more of that criticism then what the sources did. It seems that the story of Pinotage mostly exist on the ebb and flow of fashion with it rising in popularity as a "national treasure" for a few years and then being poo poo in favor of Cab & Shiraz in other years. In my opinion, the criticism section could be trim down and still convey the views of the critics in a balance proportion. That said, I am even more convinced now that the "child rape" comment is a bit overtop and not needed. It would be even more undue weight to the criticism since few, if any reliable sources, use this particular quote to "summarize" the criticism of Pinotage. While none of my sources even mention Van Rensburg, the online sources I saw only seem to mention it as an interesting side bit or summary of Van Rensburg's own isolated feelings about Pinotage rather than as some broad scope of how a segment of South African winemakers feel. I can see many good reasons for including it in an article about Van Rensburg himself, I just can't see an encyclopedic reason for it to be in this article. Agne^Cheese/^Wine 17:01, 7 January 2008 (UTC)

I agree, the "child rape" comment would be more relevant in an article about the winemaker. I do find his opinion on Pinotage interesting in that an opinion from such a notable winemaker can be that extreme. Rarely are sentiments about an entire varietal expressed so strongly, and I don't recall any other instance of a mere grape inciting such vitriolic passion. Then again, if he's given to expressing strong opinions anyway (Fred Franzia, the maker of Charles Shaw wine comes to mind as a U.S. example), then just another strong opinion isn't as meaningful considering the source. -Amatulić (talk) 19:11, 7 January 2008 (UTC)

Franzia is an excellent example. He can be a bit...extreme. I remember an interview where he said 90% of California winemakers are either crooks, frauds or hippies. :P While he is certainly a notable figure in California wine and it is certainly an interesting quote, I wouldn't advocate its inclusion in the California wine article. With the "child rape" quote, it is also a "far extreme" to the point of being almost WP:FRINGE. While criticism and disdain of Pinotage is not unheard of, the extreme and bizarre comparison to child rape is distinctly a minority view. I couldn't find any source, from any winemaker/wine writer listing a view point even scantily similar. The closest I could find was someone saying its a "crappy grape that makes wines that taste like banana flavored paint". Harsh criticisms, yeah but no where close to comparing a wine grape to child rape. Agne^Cheese/^Wine 19:24, 7 January 2008 (UTC)