Talk:Pig Latin

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Contents 1 A New Wikipedia Language Selection 2 Ig-pay Atin-lay 3 Other Pig Latins? 4 Origin of Pig Latin 5 Dong, Rövarspråket 6 Another dialect of Pig Latin 7 Copyright violation 8 Why isn't there a Pig Latin version of Wikipedia? 9 "away" in pig latin? (and other random stuff) 10 This wrong? 11 Non Pig Latin games 12 English, etc? 13 History of Pig Latin 14 Etymology 15 NPOV tag?? 16 One-to-one 17 Backslang 18 Anita O'Day 19 "phone" -> "phone-ay"? 20 Words starting in vowels - alternate method? 21 Oeks 22 This Article should be in Pig Latin 23 Because it sounds like Latin, yes? 24 Typo ? ("Amsterdam" example)

[edit] A New Wikipedia Language Selection

Many Wikipedia users believe Wikipedia should come with the Igpay Atinlay (Pig Latin) option. John says:I agree they should have a igpay atinlay section.

[edit] Ig-pay Atin-lay

Ice-nay escription-day, Octor-day Anger-say!!! Ig-pay Atin-lay is-way un-fay or-fay ome-say adults-ay. Ou-yay eem-say ite-quay uent-flay, I-way otice-nay.--OseRayArksPay--

Iay avehay eensay itay elledspay ithway aay yphenhay eforebay. TwistedRed 01:31, 7 October 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Other Pig Latins?

Question: is PigLatin primarily a phenomenon of children in English speaking countries, or are the same rules followed by children of other countries?

watashi wa nihongo no gakusei desu.

"I am a Japanese language student"

In Japanese language, I believe that the syllable is more of a fundamental unit that 'consonant' or 'vowel'. (Japanese characters, hiragana and katakana, form a syllabary rather than an alphabet.) So little kids in Japan would probably follow a different set of rules to create their own mock language.

I hope someone knows about this. I never thought of it before, and now I'm really interested.

In Sweden, the most popular mock language is "Rövarspråket", created by the author Astrid Lindgren in her books about "Mästerdetektiven Blomkvist" (Possibly Blomquist or similar. Roughly translated to "Blomkvist, the Master Detective".) Anyway, the basic idea is that consonants are doubled with an o put between them, (pronounced like X-Sampa /u/) Thus, swedish "Jag älskar dig"/"Jag älskar dej"("I love you", dig/dej depending on traditional or phonetic spelling) becomes "Jojagog älolsoskokaror dodigog/dodejoj"

Seems like the english title is "Bill Bergson". Don't know which mock/code language is used in the English version.

I have heard that the Japanese use "ba-bi-bu-be-bo" language. So "Boku ha Juuitchan da" would come out something like:

"bobokubu waba jubuubuibitchaban daba"

Something very similar was applied to English on the old children's TV show ZOOM under the name of "Ubbi Dubbi". --Matt McIrvin 18:39, 11 Oct 2004 (UTC)

...Though they generally inserted a schwa sound before the b, hence "Ubbi"... --Matt McIrvin 18:41, 11 Oct 2004 (UTC)

OK, it seems that after each syllable (ending with a vowel, excluding "n"), a similar syllable, (with the same vowel sound but the initial consonant sound always being b) is added. Check out Japanese language, and it hopefully will be clearer what I mean.

Thus (using widely known examples) Ma-N-Ga would be Ma-Ba-N-Ga-BA, A-Ni-Me would be A-Ba-Ni-Bi-Me-Be, Ka-Ra-O-Ke would be Ka-Ba-Ra-Ba-O-Bo-Ke-Be and Su-Mo-U (Sumo wrestling, usually wrongly pronounced in english) would be Su-Bu-Mo-Bo-U-Bu. Hmmm, similar B-type code languages seem to be common in different cultures.

I will ask my Japanese teacher (nihongo no sensei) next week. I don't have class until Wednesday, due to the holiday on Monday. Hopefully I won't forget, but someone can please remind me. I can also ask my Japanese mother-in-law.

On equivalents of PigLatin in other countries there is the French market argot Louchebem and Javanais (the former an adult language and the latter used by adults and children in different contexts and periods with many variants).

• The Lunfardo language, in Buenos Aires (Argentina), have many spanish Pig Latin words: Ponja-japanese ( from Japon), Ñoba-toilette (Baño), Yoyega-spaniard (galician,gallego)... There are also "palindromos" and are used also like to tongue twisters in spanish language "Dabale el abad arroz a la zorra". Looking for: Cocoliche, Germanía, Vesre, Jeringonza.

[edit] Notes.Anselmocisneros 11:02, 27 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Origin of Pig Latin

PigLatin is a spoken code. American Blacks used the language to hide intentions from hostile overseers. Nowadays it is taught as a game, but it helped people survive.

Is this true?

Absolutely untrue. There are no records of slaves using Pig Latin. At least the Ig-pay Atin-lay version, which only dates back to about the late 1920s or early 1930s in America. According to Merriam-Webster it dates back to 1931. It's clearly used in movies of that era like The Gold Diggers of 1933. Ginger Rogers even sings part of 'We're in the Money' in Pig Latin: "E're-way in-hay the Oney-may." The Three Stooges also used it in their shorts from the 1930s: "Oe-may and Arry-lay," though Curly did not understand it and so dubbed himself "Curly Q"

It was obviously a novelty word game introduced in that era and when the novelty wore off, it began to disappear. But Pig Latin has popped up now and again. The breakfast cereal Fruit Loops had an ad in the 1960s about "Uit-fray Oops-lay," which helps "Uild-bay up your uscles-may." In the 1970s the phrase "ix-nay on the otten-ray" was used in the movie Young Frankenstein. In fact "ixnay" lives on long after the real word "nix" meaning don't speak or to veto something has vanished.

Nix in the sense of "veto" hasn't vanished at all. -- Curps 07:45, 4 December 2005 (UTC)

Pig Latin is also sometimes used by adults to hide certain words from small children, for example:

"Do you want an ookie-cay?" or "Where did you hide the istmas-Chray esents-pray?"

I've heard Leadbelly sing in Pig Latin; this was recorded well before WWII. Someone needs to do a little more research on the origins of Pig Latin. dq 23:02, 19 January 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Dong, Rövarspråket

There is also a related code language, I'm not sure if it has a name, in which each word is essentially spelled out, but consenants are appended with the suffix -ong and vowels are just spoken. For example:

Hello -> Hong-E-long-long-O

Good -> Gong-O-O-dong

Cookie -> Cong-O-O-kong-I-E

Apple -> A-pong-pong-long-E

I've heard a variant of this: it maps consonant n to non and vowel a to a itself: Hoh-e-lol-lol-o, gog-o-o-dod, coc-o-o-kok-i-e, a-pop-pop-lol-e, etc. Geoffrey

The second example sounds like "Rövarspråket", from an Astrid Lindgren book, the first one, maybe like "Pig Chinese". ;J (Although the Language game claims it's called "Dong")

"Rövar" translates AFAIK as robber, thief. So "Rövarspråket" would be "Language of the Thiefs". (Basti from Germany) —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 195.126.85.141 (talk) 06:13, August 21, 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Another dialect of Pig Latin

I learned a variant in which the first pronounced letter or letter gruop (like Qu or Sh) is moved to the end, and only if it is a consonant is the "ay" added.
Example: Isthay si a esttay. Isthay si nlyo a esttay.
means:
This is a test. This is only a test.
LMT1

[edit] Copyright violation

I have deleted a portion of the article, which was copied from The Straight Dope Mailbag, concerning the history of Pig Latin. That portion was also written in non-encyclopedic style ("I'll spare you the details", "check out the rest of the scene"). -- Coneslayer 20:58, 2005 August 3 (UTC)

[edit] Why isn't there a Pig Latin version of Wikipedia?

Because they have Klingon and Welsh.--Qpqp 05:38, 14 September 2005 (UTC)

Welsh is an actual, evolved language that is still spoken by people who learned it naturally, so it has some value. I never quite understood why a Klingon version was created, though. There aren't enough people who speak it to make it worth the time. I don't think a complete version of Wikipedia in Pig Latin is worth the time, either, but because it is essentially English. However, I think a Pig Latin Babel box entry could be added just for fun, considering that 1337 is included. -Gutterball1219 02:55, 14 October 2005 (UTC)

Well, it was obviously worth someone's time to make the Klingon version. Klingon may be an intentionally created language, but it is still a language. If people want to spend time working on it, that's their business. Pig Latin is a code, not a language. But if people want to spend the time putting up a Pig Latin version, don't let me stop you.--RLent 13:53, 27 February 2006 (UTC)

Welsh is spoken in Wales, but Klingon is a conlang! Why in the world did they make a Wikipedia for it? (I didn't even know what it was; I had to look it up!). Anyway, Pig Latin isn't technically a language (see Language game), and is just a way of systematically altering English. Plus, all us Pig Latin speakers can speak English just as well, so why need we a Pig Latin Wikipedia? I do admit, however, it would be neat to have a Babel box for Pig Latin.  –Benjamin 21:51, 16 October 2005 (UTC)

There are now user language templates for Pig Latin! You can see them at Wikipedia:Babel#pig.  –Benjamin  (talk)  17:20, 23 October 2005 (UTC)

Fair enough. But there is a Pig Latin Google.--220.238.204.239 04:42, 28 November 2005 (UTC)

It's not just English! Other languagese can also have Pig Latin.--Fox Mccloud 01:41, 7 February 2006 (UTC)

ig-Pay atin-Lay non lingua eal-ray. (attempted combination of pig latin and..."Latin latin").

Did you just say that pig latin is not real? I am mortally offended! Freddie 03:40, 25 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] "away" in pig latin? (and other random stuff)

Being me, the first thing that comes to my mind upon reading the rules for construction are cases like "away" or "allay", which would end up with some sort of ay-ay (eg. "a-way-way" or "a-way-ay") in pig Latin. Is that how it would really be spoken?

Now let me see how many words in pig Latin spells the same as an English word (ignoring the hyphen):

• ash-tray
• e-Bay (well ok, proper noun)
• under-play
• over-lay (different pronunciation though)
• over-play (used a dictionary for this one)
• over-stay (dictionary used)

any others? especially words starting with consonants in English? 67.170.72.189 07:50, 10 June 2006 (UTC)

I'd chalk it up to coincidence. I'm sure any two "proper" languages will have words that are pronounced the same with different meanings. BigNate37 20:12, 23 June 2006 (UTC)

I wrote a quick little program to investigate this question in Perl:

#!/usr/local/bin/perl
my %words;
while (<>) {
    chomp;
    $words{$_} = 1;
}

foreach my $word (sort keys %words) {
    my $piglatin = '';
    if ($word =~ m/^([^aeiou]*)([aeiou].*)$/) {
        $piglatin = "$2$1ay";
    } elsif ($word =~ m/^[aeiou]/) {
        $piglatin = "${word}ay";
    }

    if ($words{$piglatin}) {
        print "$word $piglatin\n";
    }
}

I used the wordlist at [1] as the input, and got the following output:

all allay
ass assay
lin inlay
lover overlay
ok okay
raff affray
rast astray
ses essay
sun unsay
trash ashtray
trice icetray
uns unsay
wa away

I also tried it with the CMUDICT wordlist, from [2], and got this output:

ad aday
all allay
allow alloway
alt altay
as asay
ass assay
aw away
bogle oglebay
da aday
dal alday
dall allday
do oday
du uday
ess essay
is isay
ko okay
lal allay
lim imlay
lin inlay
lo olay
lover overlay
mella ellamay
ok okay
plunder underplay
rast astray
sa asay
sas assay
si isay
sor orsay
stover overstay
tal altay
tip iptay
trash ashtray
wa away
walley alleyway
wallo alloway
wan anway
wedge edgeway
word ordway
wunder underway

Nothing spectacular, but a mildly interesting exercise. Hope someone who reads this enjoys it. Nohat 05:42, 23 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] This wrong?

I think there's a problem with the algorithm given for consonant-started words:

For words that begin with consonant sounds, move all but the first consonant sounds to the end of the word and add "ay."

I take "all but the first consonant sounds" to mean the whole word excluding the start, i.e. the end of the word. Moving that part to the end doesn't make sense, because that is already where it is. Anyone else correct my logic, or is the page flawed? BigNate37 20:14, 23 June 2006 (UTC)

It's the bane of Wikipedia - it's the "too many cooks" syndrome. It made sense a few versions ago. I'll try to restore. Well spotted. --Dweller 23:07, 24 June 2006 (UTC)

Someone had interpolated the word "but" into my last version. The original read:

For words that begin with consonant sounds, move all the first consonant sounds to the end of the word and add "ay."

I've reverted this sentence to that version which is consistent with the rest of the text.--Rcharman 23:48, 15 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Non Pig Latin games

Though games for non-English languages are akin to Pig Latin, there are articles for those games and for language games as a group. Examples for those games should be in those articles and not here.--Rcharman 23:48, 15 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] English, etc?

Pig Latin (Igpay Atinlay)
Spoken in:	United States, Canada, United Kingdom, Australia, New Zealand
Region:
Classification:	Pig Latin
Spoken with:	English, etc.
See also: Language games

Exactly what in the category of Language falls under English, etc?

Pig Latin is primarily used with English, although I've also seen it (very rarely) used with French and Latin. That's why the et cetera is used.  –Benjamin   20:20, 6 December 2006 (UTC)

As a 40 yr old Briton born, raised and widely travelled in England, I've never encountered Pig Latin in any schools visited and had never heard of it before reading a linguistics book less than a decade ago! The standard backslang game here is to reverse whole words or phrases e.g. car park = krap rac Pig Latin appears to be an American import into Britain.

Indeed, as someone who actually learned latin at school back in the 90s, I have to say that I've never encountered this "ot-nay eally-ray ig-pay atin-lay" other than on a few episodes of "The Simpsons". Pig Latin in the UK, where I've heard it used, is making latin-sounding words out of English ones. For example, one might use the word "illegitimus" to mean "bastard", rather than the ACTUAL Latin noun, "nothus". There are probably a thousand examples in The Life of Brian and Up Pompeii. Thus, the end is the same (latin-sounding words that can be understood by an English speaker), but it is a tad more refined! —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 81.86.138.193 (talk) 23:45, 4 April 2007 (UTC).

Same in Australia, US television only

[edit] History of Pig Latin

It would be nice to see some information about the history/origin of Pig Latin. What times it was first used, and when the public was aware of it etc.

[edit] Etymology

What does the language game have to do with pigs, and why was it named for Latin and not, say, Spanish, German, cuneiform, or the most relevant, English? This information would improve the article. --Gray Porpoise^{Phocoenidae, not Delphinidae} 22:24, 1 November 2006 (UTC)

I have no idea where the name "Pig Latin" came from, and I daresay no one else does either. However, as you pointed out, it has nothing to do with pigs or Latin. Hence, I think that it's just a silly name for a silly game (nothing against all you Pig Latin speakers out there–I'm one myself). I agree such information would be good to have, but until somebody does some extensive research, I'm afraid there won't be much in that direction.  –Benjamin   20:24, 6 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] NPOV tag??

I fail to see why there was a "Neutrality disputed" tag on this page. I have since removed it. JMyrleFuller 23:30, 7 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] One-to-one

The article currently asserts:

Depending on the rules, Pig Latin may not be one to one; that is, there may exist pairs of English words that have the same translation into Pig Latin. For instance, in the "way" variation, "itch" and "witch" both become itch-way. Note, however, that using the first formula for vowels (eagle → eagle-ay) will not produce ambiguity, and thus can be considered one-to-one (with respect to English).

Not true: "end" and "den" both become enday, for example. (Other examples: "ant" and "tan"; "apt" and "tap".) I suppose some pedants would insist that using a hyphen relieves the ambiguity (but seeing as how Pig Latin is used orally far more than it is used in writing, I claim a silent hyphen does little good.)

An aside: I learned the "way" variation first, and consider it more sonorous when words end in a vowel. (I cringe at the double-a's in "areaay", "ideaay", and "okraay".) --Heath 128.173.42.61 04:44, 15 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Backslang

To a linguist, "backslang" refers more to the generic type referred to on the slang page, where letters or syllables are reversed, than Pig Latin which is a very specific kind. Any objections to changing the redirect to point there? --Lou.weird 15:52, 26 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Anita O'Day

Why is Anita O'day referenced in this article? I see that the pig latin word for dough is her last name, but this just seems like a random link between the two articles. --Beau 15:10, 5 June 2007 (UTC)

UPDATE 216.235.192.10 15:16, 5 June 2007 (UTC) Nevermind, apparently Anita O'Day changed her name to O'Day because it is pig latin --Beau 216.235.192.10 15:16, 5 June 2007 (UTC)

[edit] "phone" -> "phone-ay"?

The article claims "phone" becomes "phone-ay", apparently on the grounds that "ph" ("f") is a "silent consonant" or vowel. Acknowledging that I may have learned a different dialect of Pig Latin than the author, I don't think it's reasonable to claim that "ph" is either silent or a vowel.

The way I learned Pig Latin, "phone" certainly becomes "own-fay".

Comments? --Pediddle 08:05, 11 June 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Words starting in vowels - alternate method?

I was always taught that if a word started with a vowel sound, you move everything up to the first syllable starting with a consonant sound to the end and start from there.

Hence, "eagle" would be "Gle-ea-ay" (Phonetically, "Gull-e-ay") rather than just "Eagle-ay".

It fits more closely with the construct of Pig Latin, seeing as one of the primary elements of the language is moving the front part of the word to the back. Honestly, just slapping an "-ay" (or "-way", or whatever) to the end of the word seems to me like cheating! —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 66.214.137.199 (talk • contribs) 03:28, 11 July 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Oeks

The section on Oeks added July 9 by an anonymous IP address seems like original research at best, and most likely a hoax. I think it should be removed. Hu 13:07, 5 August 2007 (UTC)

This is very very likely to be a hoax, I'm dutch and I can honestly say that I have never heard of "Oeks". The description also seems to suggest that this was a very local (one school, in a small town only) and just between friends/classmates. I agree that it should be removed. Vdham 08:07, 21 August 2007 (UTC)

Same here, should be removed. Sounds like a non respectful joke to MAVO students... An even better reason to remove it, is since the loss of distinctive vowels, the original words can't be re-engineered. That for me counts as a major disqualifier eg. "aansteken" (to light sth) will have the same result as "insteken" (to put sth into sth)

81.86.57.99 17:12, 15 October 2007 (UTC)

[edit] This Article should be in Pig Latin

This entire article should be written in Pig Latin. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 64.115.7.122 (talk) 01:49, 26 October 2007 (UTC)

Onay, isthay entireay articleay ouldn'tshay ebay ittenwray innay igpay atinLay, omecay onnay. 204.52.215.107 14:17, 4 December 2007 (UTC)

But only if you want to set up a Pig Latin namespace in Wikipedia! TINYMark (Talk) 14:32, 4 December 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Because it sounds like Latin, yes?

I don't think it's a "deliberate misnomer" that it's called Latin. The "ay" sound mimics the word endings added in Latin. I don't know Latin, but in Spanish, some conjugated verbs end in -e, which sounds like "ay". danwWiki (talk) 19:57, 13 December 2007 (UTC)

 Awesome

[edit] Typo ? ("Amsterdam" example)

Amsterdam → Amsterdanway ???

Suppose to be "Amsterdamway" ? 82.194.234.254 (talk) 06:04, 15 May 2008 (UTC)