Talk:Pidgin

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[edit] Suggest merging Pigin English into Pidgin

Should Pigin English be megerd into Pidgin ?? Cardamon 03:22, 31 December 2006 (UTC)

No. Even if the two articles discussed the same thing, Pigin English is so poorly formed that it's worth deleting altogether. I'd suggest no redirect but I see that Pidgin English redirects here so then I guess just a redirect. Ƶ§œš¹ [aɪm ˈfɻɛ̃ⁿdˡi] 04:41, 31 December 2006 (UTC)

I propose the same thing. Pigin English should be merged into this article, or it should be deleted and redirected here. — Amcaja 08:11, 30 January 2007 (UTC)
I disagree. This article (Pidgin) is, and should be, about Pidgins in general. Pigin English is perhaps poorly named, but is evidently specifically about West African Pidgin English. We probably need an article on West African Pidgin English, describing the relationships of Nigerian Pidgin, Kamtok, and others, but in any case, those are distinct from Pidgin as a general language form. bikeable (talk) 08:15, 30 January 2007 (UTC)
That makes sense. There doesn't appear to be much worth salvaging from Pigin English, though, and West African Pidgin English is already much longer than the offending article. Perhaps it's enough to just blank Pigin English and turn it into a redirect to Pidgin. — Amcaja 22:29, 30 January 2007 (UTC)
I agree that it should be a blank redirect, but to Pidgin English rather than Pidgin. Ƶ§œš¹ [aɪm ˈfɻɛ̃ⁿdˡi] 22:49, 30 January 2007 (UTC)
Pidgin English just redirects to Pidgin, though. — Amcaja 22:52, 30 January 2007 (UTC)
Oh, my bad. All right, full speed ahead. Ƶ§œš¹ [aɪm ˈfɻɛ̃ⁿdˡi] 22:53, 30 January 2007 (UTC)
I don't have a problem with that. Cardamon 23:16, 30 January 2007 (UTC)
Seeing that most of Pigin English is about the Cameroonian variety, I think it makes most sense to merge the content to Cameroonian Pidgin English. Most of the info doesn't look too bad, though the thing about West African Pidgin English being derived from the speech of Caribbean missionaries is quite off track.
We'll need sources. The bit about CPE being 'demonized in academic circles' I can source to Kishani 1994 'Language problems in anglophone Cameroon: present writers and future readers', Quest, 8, 2, 101-129 (obviously, it will need to be reworded a bit).
There was an article about CPE in a recent edition of African Study Monographs. Haven't read it yet, but here's the reference:
  • Neba, Fogwe Chibaka, and Atindogbe (2006) 'Cameroon Pidgin English (CPE) as a tool for empowerment and national development', in African Study Monographs, vol. 27, 2, 39-61.
My 2 cents. — mark ✎ 19:32, 31 January 2007 (UTC)
I think that what is on the page is not relevant. The question is what is somebody trying to get when they type in "pigin English." Since it's been determined that someone who's looking for "pidgin English" ought to be redirected here, I think that should be the same for pigin English. Ƶ§œš¹ [aɪm ˈfɻɛ̃ⁿdˡi] 20:33, 31 January 2007 (UTC)
So, sounds like merge info to Cameroonian Pidgin English and then redirect page to Pidgin is the best course of action. — Amcaja 22:27, 31 January 2007 (UTC)
Yeah, I agree with Brian. I was talking about the info, not about the title. — mark ✎ 08:11, 1 February 2007 (UTC)
I just looked at Pigin English again, and I don't know where to start. I'm going to have to leave this one to someone who knows a bit more about the subject, unfortunately. — Amcaja (talk) 09:42, 27 February 2007 (UTC)
No article about a certain Pidgin should be merged into this. Pidgin is a type of language (or more accurately a quasi-language), and each type of pidgin is different. It would be like merging creole articles into Creole language. The ikiroid (talk·desk·Advise me) 20:01, 8 March 2007 (UTC)
Please read the discussion above carefully. The proposal is to merge the information from Pigin English (which is related to Cameroon) to Cameroonian Pidgin English and then to redirect Pigin English to this page. — Amcaja (talk) 22:31, 8 March 2007 (UTC)
I know, I just want to make it clear that I oppose the original idea, in case it wasn't dead yet. In the case of English Pidgin, I think that the appropriate information should be merged into Cameroonian Pidgin English and that the page be rewritten to cover all English-based pidgins, such as Tok Pisin (before it became a creole), West African Pidgin English, etc. It mistakenly indicates that there is only one English pigin, which is not true. The ikiroid (talk·desk·Advise me) 23:19, 8 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Disambig page needed?

Seems like with three other possible meanings perhaps a disambiguation page would be appropriate? --Frantik 10:17, 8 April 2007 (UTC)

Most notably Gaim's new name as of 6th April 07 —Preceding unsigned comment added by 212.159.111.213 (talk • contribs)
Support, it's looking kinda messy with 3 links to articles with similar names. Suggest renaming this article to Pidgin (contact language). --LorianTC 17:36, 9 April 2007 (UTC)
Support, agree but perhaps article should be renamed to Pidgin (language) instead? Clicketyclack 22:52, 9 April 2007 (UTC)
Support: Another possibility is Pidgin (linguistics) Ƶ§œš¹ [aɪm ˈfɻɛ̃ⁿdˡi] 04:47, 10 April 2007 (UTC)
Re-read the lead, Pidgin (language) sounds good to me. --LorianTC 08:14, 10 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Moved from article

I removed the following from the article as I don't think it's relevant to the general article on pidgins, but some of it could be salvaged for more specific articles.

Certain expressions survive from Chinglish, a pidgin formerly spoken in Southeast Asia. They have made their way into colloquial English[citation needed]. Many expressions are literal translations from Cantonese grammar. These include, in English (Chinese character and Cantonese pinyin) format:

  • long time no see (好耐冇見 hao2 noi6 mou5 gin3): we have not seen each other for some time (used as a greeting)
  • look-see (睇見 tai2 gin3): look and see
  • no can do (唔得做 m4 dak1 zou6): cannot do
  • no-go (唔去 m4 heoi3): do not go.

Spanglish is not a pidgin of Spanish and English but an example of code-switching because it occurs only among bilingual speakers and retains grammatical and phonological properties of both languages. So is Goleta English, a combined Spanish and English code-switch as it is spoken by Puerto Ricans, either occasionally when in the island, or daily as immigrants in the United States.

Arabizi An English and Arabic Pidgin, derived from Arabic, and the Arabic word for English (inglizi), and is most spoken among the younger Arab population, quite common in Jordan.

Fanagalo is a Southern African pidgin used to communicate among speakers of many different languages, primarily while underground in the country's gold mines.

[edit] Caribbean pidgins

Caribbean pidgins were the result of colonialism. As tropical islands were colonised their society was restructured, with a ruling minority of some European nation and a large mass of non-European laborers. The laborers, natives, slaves or cheap immigrant workers, would often come from many different language groups and would need to communicate. This led to the development of pidgins. These pidgins have since died out although some, such as Haitian Creole, Jamaican Patois, and Papiamento, have become creole languages.

[edit] Pacific pidgins

The Melanesian pidgins may have originated off their home islands, in the 19th century when the islanders were abducted for indentured labour. Hence they were developed by Melanesians for use between each other, not by the colonists on whose language they are based. English provides the basis of most of the vocabulary, but the grammar follows closely that of Melanesian languages: hence the use of at least three numbers in pronouns, singular, dual and plural (Bislama also has a trial), and the distinction between inclusive and exclusive we. Tok Pisin has words from German, and Bislama from French. All also adopt words from local languages. When words are adopted, not only the sound and the meaning, but also the emotional content can change. In some famous examples, "bagarap" (not working, out of action, from "bugger up") is a polite word. "As" (from "ass/arse") is a respectable Tok Pisin word for "foundation". "Wikit" (Solomons Pijin for pagan, from "wicked") has no connotations of evil.

Several expressions commonly used to exemplify Melanesian pidgins have no known basis in actual use. They include "bigfala bokis garem plande tit, iu hitim hemi kraeout" (E: a big box with plenty of teeth, hitting it, it cries out) for a piano, and "miksmasta bilong Jisas" (E: Jesus' food mixer) for a helicopter. The actual words in Solomons Pijin are piana and tiopa. One commentator pointed out that many Melanesians would be far more familiar with helicopters than electric food mixers, and would be more likely to call a mixer "helikopta blong misis".

The best-known pidgin used in the U.S. is the now creolized Hawaiian Pidgin where locals mixed the traditional dialect of Hawaiian with English, Japanese, Portuguese, and other languages of immigrants of Hawaii and Pacific traders.

[edit] Evolution

The concept originated in Europe among the merchants and traders in the Mediterranean in the Middle Ages, who used mostly Sabir. Another well-known pidgin is Bislama of Vanuatu, based on English but incorporating Malay, Chinese, and Portuguese words. The monogenetic theory of pidgins, advanced by Hugo Schuchardt, theorizes that a common origin for most pidgins and creoles exists in the form of Sabir.

[edit] Sabir

Related article: Lingua franca

Sabir was a common pidgin in the Southwestern ports of the Mediterranean. As Portuguese mariners travelled the Atlantic and the Indian Oceans on exploratory and subsequently military/trade naval expeditions starting in the 15th century --in what is known to Europeans as "the Age of Discovery"-- they tried to speak with the natives in Sabir with Portuguese words in it. When English, French and Dutch mariners followed the same routes, they also adopted this "broken Portuguese" with the lexical influence of their home languages and those of the locals. This would explain similarities in pidgins and creoles as separated as Papiamento, Tok Pisin, Chinese English Pidgin and others. For example, the word for "to know" is similar to sabir (that gave the name to Sabir itself). In Spanish and Portuguese, "saber" means "to know". It came into English as "savvy". The word for "small" is similar to Portuguese pequeno, and pequenino (very small) became pikinini in pidgins. It came into English as pickaninny and it has been proposed as an etymology for pidgin.[citation needed]

Pidgin English was the name given to a Chinese-English-Portuguese pidgin used for commerce in Canton during the 18th and 19th centuries. In Canton, this contact language was called Canton English.

[edit] History

Pidgin English from "God's Chinese Son," written by Jonathan Spence

http://www.hkfilm.net/pidgin.txt

[edit] Various pidgins

--Ptcamn 04:09, 20 April 2007 (UTC)

Hmm. I would vote to put it back. It seems highly relevant to me, and provides links to more specialised articles too. Aridd (talk) 09:56, 27 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Native speakers

According to Wardhaugh (2002) in the chapter on pidgins and creoles and in the section labeled "definitions"

A pidgin is a language with no native speakers: it is no one's first language but is a contact language (page 60)

According to the American Heritage dictionary a pidgin is:

n. A simplified form of speech that is usually a mixture of two or more languages, has a rudimentary grammar and vocabulary, is used for communication between groups speaking different languages, and is not spoken as a first or native language. Also called contact language.

This very article begins in its lead section by stating that "Pidgins have no native speakers, but are learned as second languages." A statement immediately sourced as coming from Bakker (1994) which I'm assuming means that he says the same thing. Just thought I'd clarify things so we don't get into a revert war over this. Ƶ§œš¹ [aɪm ˈfɻɛ̃ⁿdˡi] 22:59, 5 June 2007 (UTC)

That statement doesn't come directly from Bakker (1994) — it was altered by JackLumber, but keeping the reference.
Bakker actually says "Pidgins have no (or few) first language speakers" (emphasis mine). He goes on to say that "In most studies of pidgin and creole languages, pidgins fare rather poorly. Too often ... it is stated that creoles are just pidgins which suddenly acquire typical creole-like structural properties upon becoming mother tongues." --Ptcamn 23:16, 5 June 2007 (UTC)
I feel like I'm not getting the context of your quotes. Is the parenthetical "or" statement an admission of uncertainty or a claim of variation? It sounds like it could be the former. Does Bakker accept the dominant explanation that creoles are basically pidgins with native speakers? Bakker believes that some pidgins have native speakers, does he give examples? Ƶ§œš¹ [aɪm ˈfɻɛ̃ⁿdˡi] 23:27, 5 June 2007 (UTC)

What bakker says is not that when the first person who speaks a pidgin natively is born the language suddenly changes and becomes a creole. What he says is that Pidgins and Creoles are structually different since Creoles are more complex languages than Pidgins AND he says that the reason that they become more complex is (too) often thought to be that their speakers more frequently have the language as a first language. It follows from this idea that the transition from Pidgin to Creole is gradual as more native speakers of the pidgin are born and that since the Pidgin now begins to be spoken by a group of people who have the language as a native language the language it self changes its characteristics and becomes more of a creole. He is explicitly NOT defining a creole as a pidgin with native speakers.·Maunus· ·ƛ· 12:12, 10 June 2007 (UTC)

Then it sounds as though he is at odds with the authors of the resources I referred to above that don't even accomodate doubt into the notion that a creole is a pidgin with native speakers (i.e. that the native speakers will introduce the complexity of a creole onto the pidgin they are taught). Naturally, you don't need to incorporate native speakers into the definition but unless Bakker has examples of a pidgin spoken by native speakers, then I'd say that the word "usually" can be omitted in the article. Ƶ§œš¹ [aɪm ˈfɻɛ̃ⁿdˡi] 04:37, 11 June 2007 (UTC)
Peter Bakker is among the most respected scholars working with contact linguistic phenomena, another of the most respected scholars is Pieter Muysken who also cowrote the book. The book by Bakker and Muysken is about the most thorough study of contact linguistic phenomena in modern linguistics and as a specialized scholarly work it is to be given more weight than a dictionary definition and a general introduction to linguistics respectively. Also the question of whether he has examples is a moot point the entire argument is that a pidgin language only gradually develops into a creole as it gradually requires more speakers so all pidgins can potentially have native speakers - they just typically have fewer than creoles. Bakker however refuses the notion that pidgin or creole status can be defined by the status of its speakers instead he defines it by structural properties of a language. ·Maunus· ·ƛ· 10:19, 11 June 2007 (UTC)
There are two issues getting muddled here. Either Bakker and Muysken are arguing that aspects of native speakers should be irrelevant in the definitions of pidgins and creoles or they're arguing that pidgins can have native speakers.
The former seems to move against a bit of shorthand in discussions of pidgins and creoles. As Todd puts it: "...since a creole, as a mother tongue, must be capable of expressing the whole range of human experience, the lexicon is expanded and frequently a more elaborate syntactic system evolves." Thus, speech nativity has certain implicit consequences to the structure of a (former) pidgin and if their point is that the important difference is the structures, then "usually" shouldn't be put anywhere in the sentence "Pidgins have no native speakers."
If they're arguing the latter, then they have the burden of proof to find native speakers of pidgins. If they don't (or if nobody does), then there isn't much credibility to such a claim and they would be at odds with linguistic community on the matter. Since they're so credible, I'm hoping that they either have an example (in which case I would advocate the wording "pidgins usually (if not always) have no native speakers") or that they're arguing the former, which it sounds a lot like they're doing from what has been quoted and explained. Ƶ§œš¹ [aɪm ˈfɻɛ̃ⁿdˡi] 01:32, 12 June 2007 (UTC)
Another classic in the field of Contact Linguistics, Kaufman & Thomasons 1988 Language Contact, Creolization and Genetic Linguistics p. 169 states it even more precisely: "The third diagnostic feature of pidgins, also traditional, is that a pidgin is nobody's native language. By "nobody" we mean "no community," i.e. no sizeable group of native speakers; if few isolated children acquire a pidgin as their native language, it remains a pidgin. It follows then that the bordeline between a pidgin and a creole resulting from nativization of a fully crystallizd pidgin will be fuzzy too." Your own quote by Todd states the same thing; "A creole arises when a pidgin becomes the mother tongue of a speech community" He is also not talking about there being no single native speakers - what matters is if it is the native language of a community. ·Maunus· ·ƛ· 08:55, 12 June 2007 (UTC)
Yes, I noticed that with Todd as well. That certainly is an important distinction. Well, then I stand with my suggested phrasing of "pidgins usually (if not always) have no native speakers." Ƶ§œš¹ [aɪm ˈfɻɛ̃ⁿdˡi] 15:29, 12 June 2007 (UTC)
I just noticed the change made to the article. That seems even better. Ƶ§œš¹ [aɪm ˈfɻɛ̃ⁿdˡi] 15:31, 12 June 2007 (UTC)
Good, I am glad we found a way tpo agree. :) ·Maunus· ·ƛ· 15:41, 12 June 2007 (UTC)
Possibly the best solution. —JackLumber/tɔk/ 22:04, 12 June 2007 (UTC)