Talk:Piano Sonata No. 29 (Beethoven)

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III is Sonata-Form, not Variations.Quendus 21:19, 2 May 2006 (UTC)

Contents 1 How many movements in a Classical sonata? 2 "Fortepiano"? 3 Classical/Romantic 4 Further description of the fourth movement

[edit] How many movements in a Classical sonata?

A conventional classical sonata has three, not four, movements. Skiasaurus 04:52, 27 March 2006 (UTC)

A 'classical' sonata has three or four movements. Beethoven's first sonatas and many others have four movements, I believe that many of Mozart's have four (but I don't study those so I can't confirm that). Note that symphonies, a parallel form for orchestra often have four movements.Quendus 21:19, 2 May 2006 (UTC)

I don't think that it should say rather unconventional. A full 13 of Beethoven's 32 Piano Sonatas have 4 movements. I think Mozart may have had a few 4-movement sonatas. I know that other composers like Schubert had many 4-movement sonatas. Asmeurer (talk • contribs) 03:06, 10 January 2007 (UTC)

Mozart did not have any four movement piano sonatas. Four-movement form (fast-slow-"dance"-fast) was well-established by the time Haydn wrote his quartets and symphonies in his Sturm und Drang era of the 1760s, but that form was not applied to the Piano Sonata and Piano Trio genres until Beethoven's early Op 1 and Op 2 sets. So, it was an established form, but had not been established in those genre's yet. DavidRF 21:00, 18 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] "Fortepiano"?

Changed the meaning of "Hammerklavier" from piano to the more accurate "fortepiano". --Hesperides

Hmm... Here's why I have just reverted.

First, the sentence should be interpreted in context. The sentence was meant to help readers who don't know any German. Such a reader could very plausibly imagine that the word "Hammerklavier" must mean something important or unusual, and in fact it doesn't, it was simply the word Beethoven wanted to use for "piano" at the time. (If you publish a sonata for piano, it's not a bad idea to include the words "Sonata for piano" on the cover!) To use a fancy word here would lessen clarity.

Second, "fortepiano" is anachronistic from the viewpoint of naming the sonata. Today, we use this word to mean "early piano", but Beethoven surely would not have seen it that way; for him, it was just the piano.

Finally, it's not even clear that one should say "fortepiano" for the instrument Beethoven know toward the end of his career. His very last piano, by Conrad Graf, was a really massive thing, quite different from the Mozartian instrument that we commonly associate nowadays with the word "fortepiano." So really, there's little payoff in accuracy for saying "fortepiano" instead of "piano."

I hope this seems reasonable. Opus33 05:59, 10 July 2006 (UTC)

Surely the more common term was and still is pianoforte, abbreviated to piano. The title of the piece was all about the correct name to use for this new instrument (basically a harpsichord (klavier) played with hammers instead of plucking). I have now edited (reverted?) the relevant section to reflect this.

Scolaire 22:59, 31 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Classical/Romantic

I think Beethoven's Hammerklavier sonata is in the Romantic style, just the way it is structured with the notes, rhythm, and harmony. I would think it sounds nothing like Haydn or Mozart. In fact, I don't think Beethoven's works from either his middle or late periods should belong in Classical period categories (not the categories on Wikipedia) or studies. I think they should belong in topics on developments of the Romantic style. If one is interested in Classical period studies, that person should instead focus in more detail the compositions of CPE Bach, and even, Domenico Scarlatti. I think that Beethoven's early period ("Imitation") works should be included at the very end of any Classical period topic, and how it leads into the Romantic style. I think the works of Scarlatti and CPE Bach especially are more closely related to the Classical style than most of Beethoven's. And is there any way I can contact this guy, Charles Rosen? Marcus 20:37, 27 August 2006 (UTC)

Hello, Marcus2,

I'm sorry, but your recent changes are in violation of the basic rules of the Wikipedia -- you're just putting in your own opinions, without any reference sources. The relevant rule is given under Wikipedia:Verifiability, and I urge you to look at it.

Rosen is a very well known source, widely quoted in studies of music. If you want to have the article say that the Hammerklavier is a Romantic sonata, contrary to Rosen's view, you need to go to the library, find a book that says this, read it, and report what you read. You should also leave the existing Classical claims--insofar as they are by published authors--alone, in order to follow the Wikipedia's NPOV policy.

I'm out of time for editing right now but next time I edit, I will try to take out everything (not just by Marcus2) that has no reference source. I have no problem with the article saying (as one opinion) that the Hammerklavier is a Romantic sonata, but it has to be a published opinion, not the personal opinion of a WP editor.

Sincerely, Opus33 00:20, 28 August 2006 (UTC)

I found one source that might have implied that Hammerklavier is a Romantic sonata: http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=950DE1DD1238F935A25750C0A96F948260. Its heading includes "Romantic to Modern", and for musical period purposes, I go with Romantic. I believe this is a press release. There may be more to come. I haven't had much of a chance to go to the library; I only have a NYS learner's permit, which I got a month ago, and I have to have a friend drive me. Marcus 00:55, 28 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Further description of the fourth movement

I have given further elaboration to the various devices Beethoven applies in the amazing fugue movement, which deserves a fuller treatment. --Anonymous, Aug 20, 2007.

It says in the section about the first movement that it ends with fortississimo, but in fact it is only fortissimo. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.123.218.72 (talk) 22:22, 31 October 2007 (UTC)