Talk:Piano Sonata No. 23 (Beethoven)

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three movements are wrong?

2. Introduzione: Adagio molto

3. Rondo: Allegro moderato - Prestissimo

A response to the above comment above, which actually refers to Sonata No. 21, the Waldstein (Opus 53), and also to the article on the sonata Opus 57 ("Appassionata"):

At least one person, Hans von Bulow (not the greatest interpreter of Beethoven) said Opus 53 has two movements, but everyone else seems to call the Introduzione to be a separate movement (despite its name) from the Rondo. Sometimes they are put on the same track in recordings, but really the third movement seems to be separate from its introduzione structurally, and thus referring to the sonata as a three movement work makes sense.

The article on Opus 57 says the finale has "all the repeats" of sonata form, but this is inaccurate. Significantly, this is the one of the only instances--in fact, probably the only single instance--in a large scale sonata form movement wherein only the second section (development and recapitulation) is repeated and the exposition is not. While von Bulow and others find this repeat off-putting in performance, it is critical in prolonging the passion and despair of the movement, and as the neither of the outer movements repeat the exposition (as though the forward momentum cannot be stopped) this repeat is totally shocking to the listener. So insistent was Beethoven that this crucial repeat be observed he specifies in the score "la seconda parte due volte" ("the second part two times") in addition to the repeat signs and also includes a relatively long first ending. It is notable that Beethoven thought to include this very unusual structural feature in the first movement of Opus 59 No. 1, the F major string quartet, but cancelled it out and the movement has no repeats at all. (In the finale, he was going to repeat both exposition and the second part, but again cancelled the second repeat while leaving the exposition repeat intact.)

Contents 1 5:6 ratio 2 Beethoven's reception to the title 3 Verbatim unattributed excerpt 4 Would someone kindly respond to my query above (Verbatim unattributed excerpt) ? 5 Concern: "Sonata for a good man?"

[edit] 5:6 ratio

This text is misleading: "The main theme has an odd rhythm, somewhat like a dotted rhythm, except with a 5:6 ratio instead of 3:4, that is difficult to play" There is a 5:1 ratio of note lengths, or 5/6 note length, and it is not difficult to play. In the development, to make it even more misleading, there is a section involving pentuplet semiquavers set against the original 5:1 ratio theme, which a little difficult to play, but not very much so because there is only one semiquaver to set against the pentuplets. I have no idea how to fix this problem without losing information.

I removed it entirely, and I think we can live with losing the information. The rhythm is not really odd, and thus I see no reason to mention it at all. It's just a dotted rhythm, notated in 12/8, and it's not difficult to play. EldKatt (Talk) 07:52, 22 April 2007 (UTC)

Judicious. :) Quendus 07:53, 23 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Beethoven's reception to the title

The text says, While the early Sonata No. 8, Pathétique, was named by Beethoven himself, the Appassionata was so labeled by the publisher. Beethoven was outraged with the nickname, feeling that all his works were written to be played passionately and not just this one. but the linked BBC article says The subtitle for the Sonata was the publisher's addition, but Beethoven did not for once see cause to object. Can GregW, who inserted the comment, or anyone else, find a cite for the current text? - Gyan 03:19, 8 May 2006 (UTC)

I can't find conclusive information on this, but didn't he write this sonata for a duke or some noble of the sort? And the noble was the publisher, since the piece was dedicated to him. The noble thus gave the piece a nickname, and Beethoven, although unhappy, could not really do anything about it or object. I remember having read that somewhere, but I don't really remember where. - dagamezmasta June 13 2006

[edit] Verbatim unattributed excerpt

I wonder if it necessary to include in the article a verbatim excerpt from a separate text on the Web, in fact one of the references: <http://www.all-about-beethoven.com/apasionata.html> [sic]. The article's paragraph that begins "The third movement" is almost all taken verbatim from the text at this URL. (Not that I disagree with its content.) If no one can think of anything more appropriate to say, then at least the reference should be given credit for the verbatim excerpt.Daqu 00:10, 12 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Would someone kindly respond to my query above (Verbatim unattributed excerpt) ?

And, can someone please explain why my comments regarding the first and third movements of the Appassionata were removed? If there is no response after a reasonable period, I will revert them, and replace the verbatim plagiarism with a link to the original.Daqu 20:01, 5 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Concern: "Sonata for a good man?"

I don't believe it is correct that the Appassionata was the sonata featured in the film "the lives of others." can someone verify this.

It isn't the Sonata for a good man, but it is referenced in the film; I have reworded the article to reflect this. MarcelLionheart 02:50, 7 June 2007 (UTC)