Talk:Philomela (princess of Athens)

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[edit] Possible inaccuracies

I read this in another site of internet. "The Olympic Gods transformed Prokne into a swallow, Philomela into a nightingale (birds that remain silent except during spring) and Tereus into a flesh eating hawk." But the article says another thing. Who are right? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.154.113.193 (talk • contribs) 13:51, 5 September 2004

Hi. I've always read/been told that Procne turns into a swallow, and Philomela into a nightingale. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.123.66.169 (talk • contribs) 13:20, 16 February 2006

Related to the above note, the page for Hoopoe says that Terseus was turned into a hoopoe, but this page does not mention this as a possibility. Any thoughts? --Chinawhitecotton 00:10, 29 March 2007 (UTC)

I was reading through Charles Martin's translation of Metamorphosis (2005) and he does not translate within the text, specifically, whether one nor the other was transformed into the nightingale or the house sparrow, though, in his note, he makes the link between Procne and the nightingale quite clear. Then again, in John Kerrigan's article, "Milton and the Nightingale," he suggests that there is sufficient ambiguity within the text that more traditional sources, such as Pliny, could also be considered as referentially factual. It seems pretty safe that a reference to either Procne or Philomela is a reference to the nightingale, though, since no one is really ever interested in a house swallow, anyway... least of all Milton. Just some thoughts. This1trik4u 08:30, 30 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Philomela became the nightingale

From Encyclopedia Mythica [1]: "Before the chase could end, all three were turned into birds--Tereus into a hoopoe, Procne into a swallow, and Philomela into a nightingale. (Hence the nightingale is often called a "Philomel" in poetry.)"

This is consistent with what the Wikipedia article says: "The names 'Procne' and 'Philomela' are sometimes used in literature to refer to a nightingale, though only the latter is mythologically correct. Philomela can also be poetically abbreviated to 'Philomel.' "

See also the comment at the bottom of the Nightingale page [2] at the web site "The Birds of Shakespeare."

—Preceding unsigned comment added by 206.148.33.33 (talk • contribs) 22:38, 15 April 2006

I'd agree. Philomela became the nightingale (according to Brewsters Dictionary of Phrase and Fable) and Procne became the swallow. (SallyQ)

It's a tough call to say either way. As I noted in my comment above, both are still being debated--kind of inactively, actually. Suffice it to say that an oral tradition of over thousands of years long have seen both Procne and Philomela as the nightingale (one the nightingale in one version and the swallow in another). It would be presumptuous of us to suggest that one was one thing and not another when the plurality of stories proves otherwise. In this case, it hardly seems accurate to decide one way or another. It doesn't make the Wiki Entry any easier to write/understand, but that's how it appears to be at the moment. This1trik4u 08:35, 30 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Merger of Tereus, etc. with Philomela

I suggest that Tereus, etc., article be merged with Philomela. AFAIK, Tereus himself is only notable for raping Philomela; he is otherwise unnotable, and giving him a separate article just results in repetition -- of course, calling the article Philomela makes the assumption that Philomela is the central character in the myth, and Procne, Tereus and Itlus secondary -- an assumption I myself share, and an assumption which can be supported by the literature, but which nonetheless others may disagree with -- and thus, maybe the title should be something like Philomela, Procne, Tereus and Itlus? For none of these deserve separate articles.

The useless repetition of separate articles also also results in incorrect statements being added. For example, the statement in Tereus that Philomela as the nightingale is mythologically incorrect. The truth of the matter, which the article Philomela correctly refers to, is that the mythological sources are inconsistent as to who becomes which bird, although without doubt the identification of Philomela with the nightingale has been the most productive in Western literature. However, if we had just merged the articles together, the incorrectness of the statement in Tereus would have been plainer, and it would likely have not survived so long. --SJK 03:13, 22 October 2006 (UTC)

However, there should be redirects on all of the deleted articles to the Philomela if the merge takes place. I myself just looked up Itys and the information was usefull.

I think User:Pairadox was too hasty to delete the content on the Tereus article and redirect here instead. There hasn't been any discussion about this for more than 6 months and the article has developed a bit since then: it had seven Interwikilinks, 1 1/2 dozen links from other pages, and the Category:Fictional rapists. The links show the interest in this character, disputing the above assertion of unnotability. If the guy is notable for only one thing (the rape of his wife's sister and his subsequent treatment by the women), that left enough of an impression in Western mythology to warrant his own article. Also, the removal of the article on Tereus himself removed his entry in Category:Fictional rapists - which can hardly be applied to Philomela's article.
I suggest to undo the Redirect on Tereus and discussing it on Talk:Tereus. Michael Bednarek 01:58, 28 August 2007 (UTC)
Rather than spread this discussion across three talk pages(!), please direct all comments to Talk:Tereus. Pairadox 02:39, 28 August 2007 (UTC)