Talk:Philmont Scout Ranch

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Scouting Wiki Project Philmont Scout Ranch is part of the Scouting WikiProject, an effort to build a comprehensive and detailed guide to Scouting and Guiding on the Wikipedia. This includes but is not limited to boy and girl organizations, WAGGGS and WOSM organizations as well as those not so affiliated, country and region-specific topics, and anything else related to Scouting. If you would like to participate, you can edit the article attached to this page, or visit the project page, where you can join the project and/or contribute to the discussion.
B This article has been rated as B-Class on the quality scale.
Top This article has been rated as Top-importance on the importance scale.
This article has been marked as needing immediate attention.
This article was the project's Portal collaboration of the month (April 2006).
This article was the project's Portal article of the month (July 2006).
Philmont task force

This article is within the scope of WikiProject New Mexico, an attempt to better organize and improve articles related to the U.S. state of New Mexico. Join us on our project talk page.
??? This article has not yet received a rating on the quality scale. If you rate the article please leave a short summary here to explain the ratings and/or to identify the strengths and weaknesses of the article.
??? This article has not yet received a rating on the importance scale.

This is the talk page for discussing improvements to the Philmont Scout Ranch article.
Article policies
To-do list for Philmont Scout Ranch: edit · history · watch · refresh
  • Update per WP:MOS, including:
  • Ensure all measurements are listed in English system followed by metric system equivalents in parantheses.
  • Delink solitary year and months per Manual of Style guideline to link only when have strong connection to article - always link full dates to enable user date preference.

Contents

[edit] Training Center

Should there be a separate page for Philmont Training Center?? --Emb021 1 July 2005 19:27 (UTC)

Probably not. In this case, it's certainly not worth starting a new page until you've started writing and realized that it's getting to be separate from the rest of the article. --Smack (talk) 3 July 2005 00:33 (UTC)
Well, looks like someone has gone and created a PTC page. --Emb021 21:32, 31 January 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Individual Camps

I'd like to make a suggestion: The article is formatted in a way that allows every individual campsite to have it's own article. I don't think that's a very good idea because that would make those articles vulnerable to deletion because of non-notability. If an editor wants to go into detail about a particular campsite, I suggest that he/she create a subpage from the Philmont article instead. So if an editor wants to make an article about Aguila, the page address should be [[Philmont Scout Ranch/Aguila]] not [[Aguila Camp]]. If no one likes the subpage idea, I think we should at least create a Philmont category so the articles are tied together in some form.

BTW, I was a Ranger in 2001 and I had a blast working there. It's a great place to be. Solarusdude 22:11, 30 September 2005 (UTC)

I, on the other hand, think the camps are very notable and worthy of inclusion because of the huge volume of people which pass through each one every summer, and the tendency for camps to develop as communities and cultures of their own. Incidentally, articles in subpages have long been deprecated, but the category idea is a good one. — Dan | Talk 22:15, 30 September 2005 (UTC)
I heartily disagree that the individual campsites are notable at all. I think that whatever bit of encyclopedic information can be squeezed out of the articles should be put here, and that the campsites should be de-linked. I've camped and backpacked in many places, and have seen a lot of great sites with (and without) a culture of their own. However, though they were meaningful to me, they do not deserve an article here. --Blackcap | talk 06:37, 2 October 2005 (UTC)

How 'bout merging them until they get too big, then spliting them out? BTW, I'm the guy who's deleted a lot of the empty lists of camp leaders, and listed the ones with text on AfD. Thanks very much to Solarusdude for figuring out what was going on. JesseW, the juggling janitor 23:39, 1 October 2005 (UTC)

  • Now that we have List of camps in Philmont Scout Ranch, I am taking out all of the redlinked camps. This article is simply too long, and it is about to grow since it is going to be featured on the portal. Johntex\talk 02:00, 21 March 2006 (UTC)
I have a feeling that the remaining camps that still have their own pages should be deleted after the most get the most useful and notable information is taken from them and put into the "lost of camps..." page. Radagast83 06:06, 4 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Arrowhead Patch

Some info about the history of the arrowhead patch and info might be a nice addition. Dustimagic 03:45, 20 December 2005 (UTC)

I'm not aware of their history, but I would be interested in learning about their copyright status. If they're usable on Wikipedia, I could scan my three arrowheads - one generic, one from a Mountain Trek, and one from Rayado. — Dan | talk 03:50, 20 December 2005 (UTC)
I'm not entirely sure about their copyright status, however, they are often put under the "logo" copyright tag in other BSA articles. That would be great if you could upload them. The Rayado Program page could use a better patch. Dustimagic
Also, if it is allowed, I have the Year 2000 Arrowhead patch, which is the same as the regular generic arrowhead patch, except for red stitching and the year 2000 on it. That could be an interesting thing to add as well.Radagast83 19:48, 5 January 2006 (UTC)
It's allowed. That would be awesome! Dustimagic 22:46, 7 January 2006 (UTC)

I recommend that Scout logos be tagged with {{scoutlogo}}. Photos and other image should be tagged as appropriate. Also add a category such as Scouting or Boy Scouts of America. --Gadget850 ( Ed) 12:59, 3 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] staff shirts

Anyway to incorporate the distinctive green staff "pickle shirts" and the 1970s black-and-yellow rugby jersey bumblebee staff shirts? Chris 05:46, 21 January 2006 (UTC)

IMHO, the shirts in and of themselves aren't notable. A nice photo with Scouts in action wearing the shirts would be in order. --Gadget850 ( Ed) 12:57, 3 April 2006 (UTC)


[edit] Awards

I recommend that we do not list out the full requirements for every award. A thumbnail sketch with a reference to the full list would work better. --Gadget850 ( Ed) 11:04, 4 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Staffed/Trail camp definitions

I would like to propose this, so that there is less of a chance the change will be reverted again, but frankly as I look at the trail camp sub-section of the camp section, I got more and more of a feeling that it did not belong there. The reasoning is that as far as I remember (discounting the Valle, which brings up a point that it should be headlined in the page as well, probably better than having it's own page):

  • Every camp in both instances has a wooden sign to indicate the campsite number.
  • Every site in both instances has a metal fire ring.
  • A sump can be found at both. So can a bear cable, and a latrine.

Frankly since they almost all apply (if there are exceptions, then they should be noted), it should be reasoned that it does not belong excusively under the "trail" sub-section, and should be moved to the Camp section, right above both the trail and staffed sections. Radagast83 05:21, 11 April 2006 (UTC)

It has been a few days since I proposed this. As I realize this isn't a highly trafficed area, I will be bold WP:BOLD and change it when I get on next if there are no objections. Feel free to discuss this if it's a bad idea and it can be reverted/changed back. Radagast83 07:20, 15 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Baldy Picture

I have a baldy picture that i took from the top of phillips that I like a lot better. before i just go and replace it, i want some agreement, though. a smaller version of the original pic can be found here. if a consesnus is reached, tell me on my talk page so i can put the full-size one. --preschooler@heart my talk - contribs 08:07, 27 April 2006 (UTC)

We can't tell if we can't see it. Upload it and let us take a look at it, with a notice here. Rlevse 10:05, 27 April 2006 (UTC)
mount baldy from mt. phillips
mount baldy from mt. phillips

Ok, i uploaded as requested. here is the image. --preschooler@heart my talk - contribs 08:55, 4 May 2006 (UTC)

I'm split on this, your photo has Baldy furhter away and the peak is less prominent, but your photo composition is better IMHO. Rlevse 09:52, 4 May 2006 (UTC)
  • Haha.. anyone happen to be going to philmont this summer? we could really use some great shots. --preschooler@heart my talk - contribs 21:09, 4 May 2006 (UTC)
I'm going to Philmont this summer as a staffer - actually, as a photographer. I can probably take whatever shots you guys think this page needs. Chrissers 20:52, 22 May 2006 (UTC)
I threw up some pics I took last year at Philmont. --Liamdunaway 17:06, 3 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Ranger Section

I updated the Ranger section with a small background on how there was no Ranger Department when Jack Rhea (my grandfather) became Director of Camping. - Brandon Rhea

[edit] Grace

I agree that the grace should be removed (there are too many songs and the like in the camp articles). There should be some mention though, with a link to Wilderness Grace (I stumbled on this article a week ago while cleaning back links). I'm not quite sure where to add this- anyone have a idea? --Gadget850 ( Ed) 12:53, 13 June 2006 (UTC)

I didn't know that was there, or I would have linked to it. Instead, thank Rlevse for doing it. Scoutersig 13:33, 13 June 2006 (UTC)
I missed it as well. :-) --Gadget850 ( Ed) 13:35, 13 June 2006 (UTC)
It was in the "Other" and "See also" sections. It clearly didn't belong in "Other" as those are external links, so I removed that one and left it in "See also". Rlevse 13:38, 13 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Improvements/Attention tag

  • Rework bulleted lists into prose.
  • Remove cruft, esp in the trek, base camp and trail camp sections. Details of tarps and latrines really aren't really notable for this article.
  • There are no references.
  • Too many external links. Work these in as cited references if possible.
  • Clean up redlinks and redirects.

--Gadget850 ( Ed) 19:37, 12 July 2006 (UTC)

  • Lead doesn't summarize the article either Rlevse 18:47, 31 August 2006 (UTC)
I've begun some work on the article, but something must be done about the list of campsites. For a while I thought that each page should get their own article, but after working on the Philwiki project, it would be nearly impossible to get people devoted to writing a good, clear, and concise article for each camp. It is hard enough to get one good sentence from each camp, especailly for anyone who hasn't been there the current (or just previous) season, as camps change frequently. I think we should have to come up wit ha decision whether to keep or remove the few that actually have articles (in which case I say remove). They may be notable, but if no one is going to write any we may as well be consistent and link to one single page that lists the camps (if even, but I discorage this). Radagast83 01:39, 25 August 2006 (UTC)
How an article called Philmont Scout Ranch subcamps, with a full list and section on each one someone has written about? Notice the camp link for Ponderosa Park links to a place in Colorado. Rlevse 01:43, 25 August 2006 (UTC)
Just noticed that it appears there is already a page that has been begun similar to this: List of camps in Philmont Scout Ranch. Could this be the basis for the article (if it's so agreed on)? Radagast83 02:57, 25 August 2006 (UTC)
Yes, but I'd suggest renaming it to my suggestion as the list is already more than a list. All we'd have to do is a rename.Rlevse 09:50, 25 August 2006 (UTC)
I don't see any problem with a rename. Then we all could go from there. Radagast83 15:52, 25 August 2006 (UTC)
Okay, it's now Philmont Scout Ranch Camps. I thought Camps worked better than Subcamps because it's what Philmont calls them (Staffed and Trail) Camps. Hope I wasn't too bold for anyone Radagast83 21:48, 26 August 2006 (UTC)

support creation of inclusive article, as per Rlevse, and thanks to Radagast for calling it like it is. Chris 01:46, 25 August 2006 (UTC) support. Rlevse 09:50, 25 August 2006 (UTC)

It's fine with me, but "Camps" should be "camps" and it's now time to merge all the separate Philmont camp articles into the master articles.Rlevse 22:03, 26 August 2006 (UTC)
Drat, I knew it didn't look right when I did it. Fixed. Radagast83 01:35, 27 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Merge

Re the merger of Baldy Town:

Oppose: This should be merged with Philmont Scout Ranch camps. --Gadget850 ( Ed) 13:44, 21 September 2006 (UTC)

Oppose: agree with Gadget. Rlevse 13:45, 21 September 2006 (UTC)

Oppose: agree with Gadget Horus Kol 14:40, 21 September 2006 (UTC)

Oppose, agree that it should be merged with Philmont Scout Ranch camps. Radagast83 15:58, 21 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Rock climbing(staffed camps section)

Isn't rock climbing on real rock faces available at Cimmarroncito also? Mikeboatlake 04:37, 28 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Honorary staff

I removed this from the former staff category. To qualify the staff should actually have worked at Philmont and not been inducted on an "honorary" basis.

  • Michael E. Fossum - As the keynote speaker for the 2007 Philmont staff opening ceremony, Astronaut and Eagle Scout Michael Fossum was made an honorary Philmont staff member
Americasroof 13:59, 31 May 2007 (UTC)


[edit] Black Death

In five years of working at Philmont, I've never heard Black Death to include Trail Peak. Can anyone give any citation to get rid of confusion? As it is now, I think dispution should at least be noted at the moment, since there is obviously a difference in interpretation, until someone can find a way to prove something. 65.120.179.226 22:42, 31 May 2007 (UTC)

Black Death only includes Bear, Black, Shaefers, and the Tooth. Super Black adds on Phillips, Comanche, and Big Red. Zybthranger 22:04, 10 August 2007 (UTC)

I agree, trail peak is not in black death or super black death, so I removed itMikeboatlake 01:42, 25 January 2008 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Mikeboatlake (talk • contribs)

[edit] Map

the map of philomont is a bsa publication. why is there not a higher res available? {{unsigned|24.41.62.216||

[edit] High Adventure help please

Minor wiki problem here. I want to link the words "High Adventure" in the opening paragraphs to this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/High_adventure but when I make it an internal link it goes here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/High_Adventure. The only difference is the capitalization of the "A" in "[a]"venture, but the first (lowercase "a") leads to a page decscribing various outdoor activities (prominently including Boy Scout High Adventure) that is appropriate for the Boy Scout experience, but the second (uppercase "A") goes to a link to a Kenny Loggins album. I know this is a newb request, but can anyone successfully link the words "High Adventure" to the appropriate wiki page? Thanks much BaikinMan 16:56, 30 June 2007 (UTC)

High adventure or High Adventure. Click on edit to see how the internal links are formatted; see [[Help:Contents/Links] for more help. --Gadget850 ( Ed) 20:52, 30 June 2007 (UTC)

[edit] requirements for BSA to keep ranch

Should we post the 3 requirements that Waite Phillips gave to the BSA to let us use the ranch(that gus could stay, that it remain a working ranch, and that his family could come)? just want some imputMikeboatlake 21:50, 13 July 2007 (UTC) just added them yesterday Mikeboatlake 04:52, 24 January 2008 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Mikeboatlake (talk • contribs)

[edit] Mount Baldy is named because its bald from strip mining

Mount Baldy is named that, because the top is bare of anything, do to strip mining. On the hike up there, you can see old rusted cans, spokes of broken wheels, and other just left by the miners. Dream Focus 17:02, 2 August 2007 (UTC)

[edit] list of swap box food

The information about the swap box seems odd. Its been a long time since I've been there, but the only thing we ever found in these swap boxes, was cream of wheat, and other such garbage. We never got canned meats or some of the other stuff I see listed. Guess they changed the menu since then.

I would be curious to see a list of what types of food they currently offer. Maybe someone could make a page listing all that information. It is odd they don't offer you a choice though, or they didn't when I was there.

They also had a staff member go with us the first few days, who cooked a peach cobbler for us. Do they still do that? Dream Focus 17:09, 2 August 2007 (UTC)

I went last summer (2006) and I get the feeling that the menu has changed since you have been there. In general each crew gets a bunch of pre-assembled bags of food, each bag is either a breakfast, lunch, or a dinner. Each bag is food for two people. Breakfasts were generally some type of granola, power bars, some type of dried fruit, some type of trail mix and a drink mix. Lunches were more or less the same, except instead of granola as the "main course" it was either cheese and crackers, peanut butter and jelly and crackers, canned meat and crackers, or tuna(in a bag) and crackers. Dinners were a freeze dried soup, stew, pasta, macaroni etc., breadsticks, and a dessert. The ranger( the staff member who came with us for the first two nights) didn't cook a cobler for us, but he did pack a loaf of pound/coffee cake and a thing of frosting and gave it to us the night before he left. If you have any other questions I would be happy to answer. TommyMoullet 20:35, 4 August 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Bias?

The Conservation Department is the blood that flows through Philmont and allows it to survive.

anyone else think this may be too biased? also, maybe someone has a few ideas to re-write it and make it less biased. Mikeboatlake 05:51, 3 February 2008 (UTC)

Definite bias, remove or major reword needed. — Rlevse • Talk • 11:22, 3 February 2008 (UTC)

[edit] crashed airplane

I thought there was also a crashed airplean at philmont. Poohman0 (talk) 01:09, 4 April 2008 (UTC)
Yep, there's the B-24 Wing on Trail Peak. Wreckage of an Army Air Forces B-24D Liberator bomber is located just below the crest. Crashed on April 22, 1942. There is also a more recent crash up towards French, but I don't recall most of the details. Zybthranger (talk) 04:02, 4 April 2008 (UTC)

Dhouldent we put something like that in the artical Poohman0 (talk) 19:20, 9 April 2008 (UTC)

In 1942, a B-24 Liberator crashed into the side of Trail Peak. Waite Philips led a rescue crew up, but 5 people were lost, including 2 Eagle scouts. Some of the wreckage still remains, including a wing and propeller.
This is already in the article. Zybthranger (talk) 16:46, 20 April 2008 (UTC)