Talk:Philip Kraus

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Philip Kraus was a good article nominee, but did not meet the good article criteria at the time. There are suggestions below for improving the article. Once these are addressed, the article can be renominated. Editors may also seek a reassessment of the decision if they believe there was a mistake.

Reviewed version: August 27, 2007
Articles for deletion This article was nominated for deletion on 26/5/2007. The result of the discussion was keep.

Contents

[edit] First draft of article

The [first draft] of this article [was] adapted from Philip Kraus's biography on www.philipkraus.com with the full permission of the author and webmaster of the site.[1]

[edit] References

This article cites only references to websites prepared by the subject of the article. All of these opera companies and venues must have websites, and citations to them would be more appropriate. Are there no newspaper articles about this person? No reviews of his performances or the performances of the opera companies that he produced describing his role in the productions? In the absence of some independendent sources, it could be concluded that the assertions made in the article are not correct. -- Ssilvers 18:00, 25 May 2007 (UTC)

[edit] References and Citations

I have added independant webpage citations to all the places that were originally labeled.

I have also added a list of links to reviews of Mr. Kraus's work.

His complete professional career can be corroborated by his management:

Chicago Concert Artists, 431 South Dearborn Street, Suite 1503, Chicago, IL 60605

Phone: 312.663.6434

Fax: 312.663.9416

Email: ccamgmt@chicagoconcertartists.com

I feel the article is quite neutral.

Paxart

Thanks for your quick response. I'll take a look at the references tomorrow (Saturday) and advise. The fact that the management company can vouch for the truth of the article is irrelevant. That is "original research" and is forbidden on Wikipedia. See WP:OR for an explanation of what this means. I also note that websites that sell products (such as your translations) are a no-no on WP. But, if your other references are independent and verifiable, that should alleviate most of the concerns about the article. As I say, it is very late now, but I'll check them tomorrow. Best regards, -- Ssilvers 05:42, 26 May 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Analysis of citations

I checked the references you gave but I admit that I am extremely disappointed:

1. It is clear that the University hosted this performance, but not that you sang in it. Also, when did you study with these teachers/coaches who you listed? I deleted some of the obviously non-notable childhood teacher names. More dates would be helpful.

2. You are not listed as a principal on the recording at the site you give. This is worse than no cite at all. Also, what about evidence of the other performances in the paragraph? Is there none? Again, newspaper reviews would be good. Even if you could only find references for half of these performances, that would at least be some support for the paragraph.

3. The Chicago Concert Artists site is just your management's site. It is not independent, and it merely repeats the information that you give it. You must give independent references showing that you did all this. Or, just cull it down to the ones that you can find references for.

4. I cannot find your name anywhere on the Lyric Opera of Chicago website, except here: http://www.lyricopera.org/about/starsOfTheSeason.asp But this does not tell us what roles you are singing this season. Please give specific sites and tell us where to find the relevant information. Also, please give the date of each role you played.

5. OK, finally, a review of a performance. Why do we need to cite both Variety and the less-known "lasplash.com"? It does not review your performance, anyway, but either one would verify that you appeared in the cast. I put the first reference first, because it is the most prestigious.

6. The lightoperaworks.info site is obviously not independent; it is your own attempt to reconstruct history, because the company's official site has apparently deleted all mention of your name, even in their history sections. You will only convince Wikipedians that this article is largely a sham if you cite this website.

7. (Sigh) Again, this reference: http://www.portalwisconsin.org/dauphin.cfm just shows that the production and broadcast took place, not that you had any connection with it, whatsoever.

8.  ? There's no Roosevelt reference here.

9. The faculty profile at Northwestern reference is helpful to show that you are (were?) a Lecturer there, but not for supporting the information about your career which, again, just copies the information that you gave them. Also, how does it indicate what dates you lectured there?

The other citations:

1. Doesn't mention you.

2. Yay! The Street scene review mentions you. I moved the reference up into the article.

3. Candide, 1994: Here is another verifiable reference, and you did not mention the role in the article. I added it.

4. I moved the Traviata review up into the article.

5. This was an empty page at the NY Times. What is the link supposed to be?

Summary: Most of these references were not verifiable and independent. This article is still largely unreferenced and your conflict of interest is obviously hampering you in deciding what to cite and what information in the article is notable. But, I appreciate your efforts. I think you could be a very useful contributor to Wikipedia, and I hope that this experience does not discourage you. When people start out on wikipedia writing about themselves, it is a difficult situation.

Best regards, -- Ssilvers 18:58, 26 May 2007 (UTC)

[edit] I give up

Everything in this article is fact.

I have programs and paper reviews for most everything. So does the management company. There is no way to post all this on the internet.

I'm not willing to expend further time and frustration on the article.

[edit] Some further comments

I have decided to delete the article entirely and most of the editings of other Wikipedia articles made by me.

The fact that this person is found no where in the history section of the Light Opera Works official website is an attempt by that company to "cleanse" his founding and 18 years of artistic service from the history the company and of operetta in Chicago. I ask, what makes their website any more of an independant source, than Kraus's own website.

Paper documents, programs, photos, cast notes, etc. in the possession of said person fully prove all this.

The burdens of proof requested by Mr. Silver seem unreasonable when having consulted similar biographies of singers in the encyclopedia. If this is indeed the case,I don't see why every sentence in the encyclopedia doesn't have a citation request!!

I'd rather not burden the encyclopedia with contributions if they are held up to insurmountable standards.

In essence, you have succeeded in chasing away a small resource for this encyclopedia.

[edit] International Who's Who in Music and Musicians' Directory

An entry for Mr. Kraus appears to be included in International Who's Who in Music and Musicians' Directory Twelth Edition 1990/1991 edited by David M. Cummings; p. 475.

Tim Fuller

Thanks. I'll add it to the article. Do you have any citations for the various performances listed in the article? -- Ssilvers 18:46, 30 May 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Internet entries

The singer seems to have more than a few internet references....

Thanks, Tim. These are helpful, and I have added some to the article. We need a little more information about some of them

http://jaylusteck.com/_wsn/page3.html Stage Director Iolanthe, Babes in Toyland

What year did Kraus direct these? 1993

http://www.handelweek.com/performers.html Bio

This site is already referenced in the article re Handel. It can't be used as a bio reference, however, because the info comes from Kraus

http://www.performink.com/archives/curtain/2001/1026Curtain.html Lyric Opera

This link doesn't work.

http://listserv.cuny.edu/Scripts/wa.exe?A2=ind9808e&L=opera-l&T=0&P=13002 Duchess of Chicago reference

There's already a Duchess link in the article, and in any case, we can't use blogs and discussion lists. See WP:RS.

http://www.lyricopera.org/img/news/2007_08_Season.pdf Lyric Opera

I just added this to the article.

http://www.buddybuddy.com/pc-s-05.html Chocolate Soldier

I just added this to the article.

http://earlymusichicago.org/events_february_2004.htm Handel Concert

There's already a link in the article to the Handel week stuff.

http://www.rader-shieber.com/press.htm Cumming Little Vixen Review

I just added this to the article.

http://www.dmlsoftware.com/loperapiccola/prog-9.htm De Paul Teaching reference

This shows that Kraus teaches voice, but I doubt that it's worth noting in the article, unless the student is famous. See WP:N

I put this in because a citation had been requested for his De Paul treaching???

http://www.concentric.net/~Onk145/Lelio.htm Grant Park Conceert Review

I just added this to the article.

http://www.mahlerfest.org/mfXIV/welcome.htm MahlerFest

I just added this to the article.

http://www.concertoperetta.com/pastprod.html Duchess of Chicago

I just added this to the article.

http://en.epochtimes.com/news/6-9-17/45983.html LA Opera Traviata

I just added this to the article.

http://www.wfmt.com/main.taf?p=1,1,41,44 LA Opera Traviata

I just added this to the article.

http://www.ffaire.com/musicplanner/midwest/lyric.html Lyric Opera Figaro

I just added this to the article.

http://www.mvdaily.com/articles/2004/07/mikado1.htm Cleveland Mikado

I just added this to the article.

http://www.kwf.org/pages/works/l2main.html#prod Lady in the Dark

? Kraus is not mentioned at this website

I only put this down to indicate the LOW company had presented a production worthy of inclusion in the Kurt Weill Foundation website. To the best of my recollection, these projects were initiated by Kraus during his tenure at LOW.

http://www.kwf.org/pages/works/k7main.html#prod Knickerbocker Holiday

ditto. Perhaps there was a review that mentions Kraus? Or, perhaps Kraus's participation in these two productions was not notable. -- Ssilvers 02
08, 31 May 2007 (UTC)

Tim Fuller

[edit] Lyric Opera Reference

Kraus' appearances at Lyric from 1991 through 1994 are documented in the book:

Bravi: Lyric Opera of Chicago author- Victor Skrebneski Abbeville Publishing Group, NY ISBN 1-55859-711-9

Thanks. What date was the book published? Sorry, 1994.

He is listed in the casts lists at the back of the book for the following:

Fanciulla del West Jose Castro 1991 Nozze di Figaro Antonio 1992 Bartered Bride Micah 1993 La Boheme Alcindoro 1993 Sussanah Elder McClean 1994 Tosca Sacristan 1994

I would give page numbers, but unbelievably, the book does not use page numbers being primarily a photo book.

I added these dates to the article.

All his appearances with company through 2004 are documented on the Lyric Opera of Chicago website:

http://www.lyricopera.org/about/performanceArchive.asp

I added info to the article.

He is listed on next season's roster at:

http://www.lyricopera.org/about/starsOfTheSeason.asp

I had already added this info to the article previously.

-- Ssilvers 02:58, 31 May 2007 (UTC)

T Fuller

[edit] Refs/questions

I added the reference for Babes in Toyland and removed the G&S cite needed tag. Did Krause direct both The Grand Duke and Utopia, Limited? Thespis?\

What does it add to say that someone was "invited" to perform somewhere? You can't perform anywhere unless you are invited. If the words are trying to indicate something else, we should explain what we are getting at.

Is the DePaul teaching all one-on-one voice lessons? The article says he's director of the opera theatre there. Should it just say that he "teaches voice" there? Best regards, -- Ssilvers 06:32, 31 May 2007 (UTC)

[1] To my knowledge, Kraus directed both Grand Duke (1992) and Utopia Limited (1984)at LOW. As I recall, he also sang King Paramount in the Utopia production. I'm not aware he has ever directed Thespis, but of course this is a torso with no authentic musical score.
[2] I changed the Ardis Krainik reference because as it stood, the sentence made no sense. I suppose its a matter of taste and semantics.
[3] According to my friend Linda Hirt, who teaches at the De Paul School of Music; Kraus was Director of Opera at Depaul from 1982-1987; and a voice instructor from 1993-1999. [Above three comments by User:Tim Fuller].

Thanks. I added [numbers] above that I refer to below. BTW, please sign your name to your talk page comments by using four tildes: ~ ~ ~ ~ but without the spaces:

1. OK, that's what I thought. Do you know if he was the stage director for all of them? Right now, the article just says that they were produced while he was artistic director. We know he stage directed Iolanthe. I wish there was an independent reference (or just a couple) that would show what he did for all of them. I am amazed that there are so few reviews of productions at LOW. NYGASP gets multiple reviews for every production they do.

2. I see. OK, the Kranik reference is an irrelevancy, unless Kraus has some kind of documented special relationship with her. If people want to know more about the Lyric Opera in general, they can click on the link. I'll fix it.

3. Thanks. Well, the statement is not supported by an independent reference. I'll leave the tag on it for now, but if we can't find a reference within a couple of months, we'll have to decide what to do with the statement then. If we get some more references for other assertions in the article, we can probably leave in some stuff like this that is referenced only by Kraus's auto-bios. Does Kraus continue to teach voice? If he spends a significant amount of his professional time teaching voice, I think it would be useful to say somewhere that he "also teaches voice" or something like that, and then we could cite a couple of students' websites if there is nothing else available. I don't think its of notable interest to specify exactly where he taught voice in the past, although if his current students are all in Chicago, or LA or somewhere, we could say "in Chicago".

We've made a good start on referencing the article, but there are still a lot of important and unreferenced statements. Most Wikipedia articles can slide by being under-referenced, at least for some time. In this case, however (just a little history here), Kraus wrote the article himself and used as a reference (i) a commercial website that attempts to sell his translations and (ii) the website that he is creating about LOW "history" that is obviously polemical (he clearly has a bone to pick with the LOW folks, who have expunged all mention of his name from their website). Therefore, it drew my attention and that of a few others. Then, when I raised my concerns, Kraus started using an anonymous account to vandalize my user page and several articles. I have spent many hours trying to improve this article, and I thank you for your assistance. But the article is still, I'd estimate, 50% unreferenced, and in order for us to remove the reference tag, we need to find at least a few more good WP:RS references. We also can remove the "conflict of interest tag" once it is clear that the WP:POV assertions are all removed. Unless we can get references, one way to do this is to remove the list of famous conductors/orchestras with whom Kraus has worked and just leave in the referenced ones and note "and other orchestras throughout the United States" or something like that. Best regards, -- Ssilvers 17:29, 31 May 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Light Opera Works Productions

I wish the official LOW website would list the productions Kraus directed. They seem to only have a list of repertory from their first season.

Kraus' exclusion from this website is scandalous considering his long term contribution to that company; it is explained by the rather contentious way in which the company dismissed him which was covered in the Chicago arts press in 1999.

Do you have some references to the press about his leaving? Maybe there is something in those article that supports our statement that he was there for all 19 years, and directed 38 productions.

I'm aware of all this, because I was a long time LOW subscriber and saw nearly all their shows until recently. After Kraus' departure, the quality of the productions declined in my opinion and I became less interested in the gradual switch away from the light opera/operetta repertoire in favor of standard musicals.

During Kraus' tenure at LOW, it rivaled the Ohio Light Opera as one of the more devoted companies to the operetta genre. That cannot, unfortunately, be said anymore. -- Tim Fuller

Sorry to hear that, but that's not relevant to Kraus' article. I agree that it is too bad that a dedicated operetta company would produce fewer of those worthy but neglected works.

-- Ssilvers 17:29, 31 May 2007 (UTC)

By the way, what exactly does the Int'l Who's Who entry say? If it's not too long, it might be helpful for you to e-mail it to me (click the link on the left side of my user page or talk page). Best regards, -- Ssilvers 17:32, 31 May 2007 (UTC)

I can email you the Who's Who Ref and some other articles I saved while following Kraus' career; however when I click on the email link on your user page it says you have elected not to receive mail?? TF

Sorry, Tim. Try again (I think I checked the right boxes this time!). Also, please sign your talk page messages with four tildes: ~ ~ ~ ~ (but no spaces). Best regards, -- Ssilvers 04:27, 1 June 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Further References

Impresario at Chicago Cultural Cultural Center

http://www.napervillechorus.org/bios/areyzaga.html

Die Fledermaus at LOW

http://www.elizabethlucas.com/PDFs/LUCAS_RESUME.pdf

Gianni Schicchi/Buoso's Ghost at Chicago Opera Theater

http://www.memphisflyer.com/backissues/issue582/mfea582.asp

Conductor Edvard Tchivzhel

http://www.fortwaynephilharmonic.com/results.asp?searchtype=date&datefrom=10/1/2006

Conductor Andreas Delfts

http://www2.jsonline.com/letsgo/daily/0907delfs.stm

Lyric Opera Cleveland Patience

http://www.clevescene.com/2002-07-17/culture/victorian-virtue/

Biography at iClassics

http://www.iclassics.com/artistBio?contentId=1793

Amistad at Lyric

http://www.lyricopera.org/img/about/pdf/castLists_1990s.pdf

(The cast list says Southern Senator; Kraus is obviously using the Christian name of the character.)

Recording of Fidelio with Solti

http://k.1asphost.com/clor/ALCUSOLT.HTM

Tosca Cleveland Opera

http://www.ffaire.com/musicplanner/midwest/cleveopera.html

Conductor Daniel Barenboim

http://www.soundgenerator.com/news/showarticle.cfm?articleid=3287&page=2

Progress. Some useful references. I put in even the ones that were people's resumes from their own websites, although someone will eventually delete those. See WP:RS. But, we're certainly getting somewhere. I took off the tags, but there are still whole unreferenced paragraphs or lists of things. It seems to me it ought to be reasonably easy to at least add the dates of all the LOW productions from their website. Can you try to add those, please? -- Ssilvers 16:21, 2 June 2007 (UTC)

Yes, I can add those. In regards to the Who's Who article, I have scanned it, but there doesn't seem to be a way to send this to you via the Wikipedia mail. I'm happy to type out the article here verbatim, but I'm not sure that's what you want. I also have a few of his Pamiro Opera review's, mention of Kraus in the Kurt Weill Foundationm newsletter and a picture of him at the Lady in the Dark opening night from stagebill... TimFuller 17:43, 2 June 2007 (UTC)TFuller

Thanks. A reference does not need to be online. If you have the date, the title of the book or article (for journals, volume, date, page; for news articles date, page, column), name of author, publisher (and city), any ISBN number and any other identifying info, then just give that info and type in the relevant info, and we'll massage it into the article. Best regards, -- Ssilvers 17:49, 2 June 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Well done

Great work, Tim. Do you have any sources for the last few uncited assertions? Best regards, -- Ssilvers 02:38, 6 June 2007 (UTC)

I filled in a few more blanks; unfortunately, I cannot find any citations regarding De Paul or Roosevelt. Once faculty members leave, they are no longer included in the university websites. -- TimFuller 19:48, 6 June 2007 (UTC)TFuller

Congratulations on a fine job gathering references for this article. Maybe each university's library has something showing that he directed their opera program (or maybe just some articles from the school newspaper about student operas during the period mentioning his title), and they can provide us with a reference to their library designation or the dates of the school newspaper articles? Maybe the university's reference librarian would respond to an e-mail? Best regards, -- Ssilvers 01:18, 7 June 2007 (UTC)

You gave me an idea. I searched for the University Catalogs of past years and found Kraus' listings both at De Paul and Roosevelt available online. -- TimFuller 04:57, 7 June 2007 (UTC)TFullerTimFuller 04:45, 8 June 2007 (UTC)TFuller

That does it! Well, what's you next project? Happy editing! -- Ssilvers 05:50, 7 June 2007 (UTC)

Don't know. Thanks for all your assistance! --TimFuller 04:46, 8 June 2007 (UTC)TFuller

If you click on the links in Krauss's article, they will take you to articles on operettas. Almost all of the articles on operettas in Wikipedia need to be expanded with more information about history/backround/genesis of their creation, information about their original production and subsequent productions, etc. You may be interested in expanding some of them? If you prefer G&S, there is a G&S project at WP:G&S. If you like opera, there is an opera project. See: Talk:Opera. Best regards, -- Ssilvers 04:51, 8 June 2007 (UTC)

Thanks. I'm going away for a short vacation tomorrow. When I return, I'll give some thought to further contributions. TimFuller 05:42, 10 June 2007 (UTC)TFuller

[edit] Failed "good article" nomination

This article failed good article nomination. This is how the article, as of August 27, 2007, compares against the six good article criteria:

1. Well written?: In a word, no. The Career section is the worst example: it reads like a resume. It just goes on and on with lists of his performances without context, progression of events, motivation, or anything. The third "paragraph" of that section is one mind-numbingly long sentence. The article also is not in chronological order. While this is not necessarily bad, it should be justified. Is there a reason why the Light Opera Works section is not in the Operatic and concert career section? A well-written article should be something between a resume and a novel. It should be a resume in that it should be thorough and include all major events and accomplishments. It should not be a resume in that it should not be sterile, boring and without context or story. It should be like a novel in that it should be narrative: it should tell us a story about a person; we should feel like we are basically acquainted with the person. It should not be a novel in that it should not be biased, or try to lead the reader to an emotional, political or any other kind of reaction (like a romantic comedy or a tragedy). This article certainly doesn't do that, but it could definitely be fleshed out more, and make the events seem like events of consequence.
2. Factually accurate?: In general, this article is wonderfully referenced. There are references for just about every fact presented. However, the first paragraph in Early training has no references. Also, very few of the references are formatted correctly. See WP:CITET for information on how to correct that. You don't have to use the templates (they irritate me personally), but the references should at least follow that format.
3. Broad in coverage?: *Any info on his personal life? Brothers? Sisters? How did he get into Gilbert and Sullivan? Does he belong to any schools of music? How was he discovered? Where does he live? Is he married? Got kids? Hobbies? Any philanthropic work? Any DUI convictions? You may not have all this information, but I hope these questions inspire the kind of information that should be included.
4. Neutral point of view?: Good here.
5. Article stability? Yep (almost dead).
6. Images?: What evidence do you have that the image is in the public domain? There is no PD notice listed at the website (that I saw). You will need to cite some evidence of that. The caption is also insufficient.

When these issues are addressed, the article can be resubmitted for consideration. If you feel that this review is in error, feel free to take it to a GA review. Thank you for your work so far. — Esprit15d 18:48, 27 August 2007 (UTC)

I basically agree with the comments, except that the Light Opera Works discussion does *not* belong with the 'Operatic and concert career' section, because he was Artistic Director of LOW, not a performer; whereas the 'operatic and concert career' section is about Kraus as a performer. So I think it is correctly organized in that respect. -- Ssilvers 19:29, 27 August 2007 (UTC)
Point taken. Unfortunately I was unable to come up with any GA opera singers, but Luciano Pavarotti was closer to what the article's editors should be shooting for.--Esprit15d 19:50, 27 August 2007 (UTC)