Talk:Philadelphia Experiment/Archive1

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[edit] the movie

the 1984 movie is mentioned in the section titled Later publications of the story, but not in the section titled Audio Visual Media.

People using the table of contents will not find it quickly, especially since the 1984 movie is not a "publication" at all. - comment applies article text as of Aug 2, 2006

it should be linked at the top maybe? same name and all —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 142.162.48.37 (talk) 05:24, 5 December 2006 (UTC).

[edit] New physical knowledge

Hi Folks!

I did some research on physics. So, here it goes:

- Invisibility uses no fiber optics. It is simply not possible. You'd have to do it in all directions and that is - say - out of reach of even today's tech.

- Solution A: Bending light - could be possible, but would require more energy that the sun's gravity. Forget it.

- Solution B: Every object has an electromagnetical field. Since atoms are both atomic and electromagnetic of nature, (just like light) you can only see light in the same phase, like you. (Ever watched Stargate?) So: shifting phase should render any object invisible. Reports say, that many ships around the U.S.S. Eldridge had em generators on board. These generators were bombarding the Eldridge with low energy, high frequency em-waves. This could have had the result, that the ship became invisible. Many reports state, that people fully controlling their auras, (em-fields) have the ability to become invisible as well.

ProClub 20:56, 8 Aug 2004 (UTC)

In my research, I didn't find any specific claims for how the effect was created technically, and likely wouldn't have paid much attention to them if I had. Rather than speculate, we should probably stick to the supposed story here, and present the opposing points of view based on that. - Scooter 06:12, 26 Aug 2004 (UTC)--scooter, you're story is base soley on your opinion and is completely open for blasting out of the water given the number of incorrect details, bad dates, false names, insufficient research and I can go on. Rip em up lydexia. As the man below states, this article should never have been written.
Ah, so you're saying that all light is just tunnelling past the ship? Read my contributions. lysdexia 15:39, 27 Oct 2004 (UTC)
Since atoms are both atomic and electromagnetic of nature, (just like light) you can only see light in the same phase, like you. (Ever watched Stargate?) Unless you're using some new definition of the word "phase" that I haven't heard of yet, this is patently untrue, Star Trek and Stargate notwithstanding. --David Wahler (talk) 13:53, 28 October 2005 (UTC)

David, this is patently not so--I just looked at your bio--a recent high school grad with interest in tecnology. Please do some research. Lysdexia is not talking about electromagnetic vs. atomic, s/he is simply stating that when disharmonies exist between waveforms, light and light refractions disappear or become invisible. I don't think you are talking about the same thing. And, I believe s/he is correct in stating that it is a possible outcome. It is also true that when waveforms are sped up, the visible light disappears. If the ship was blasted by several other ship with high speed energy thereby increasing the frequency of the light reflected from the ship, the ship could disappear. It may even be able to move. You do not know for certain that this is not possible.

I'm sorry but this demonstrates a pitiful comprehension of physics. This entire thing is conceptually just bullshit. Science fiction != reality.


Sorry to Chime in on your article, but where did you do this physics research? Where you differ from fact mostly is in the possibility of invisibility, specifically:

  • Recent expierience done at the University of Michagan have shown that metamaterials (hybrid materials of composite ceramic and fabric, generally) can bend elements of the electromagnetic spectrum around them to produce what amount to limited invisibility. This means you can be invisible on radar, to human eyes, or both. But you will case a very small shadow as well.
  • You say that bending light would require more energy than the suns gravity. This is not the case. Light bends (ever so slightly) as it goes around any object with mass, like your finger, or a planet. This is incidently how extrasolar planets are found, through a technique known as gravitational lensing.
  • I have no idea where you come up with the idea that "atmoms are both electromagnetic and atomic in nature, like light." Light is not composed of atoms, it is composed of photons, which are massless particles (their lack of mass is why light is able to move so fast, no worries about e=mc2). And atoms, by themselves, are not electromagnetic in nature at all, you need to charge them with either negative or positive particles (electrons/positrons) or utilize atoms with decreased neutron activity.
  • You say that "you can only see light in the same phase, like you"...I dont know what this means, but a human's ability to see light has nothing to do with phases, it concerns the absorbtion spectrum of what your looking at (the particles making up a red shirt tend to absorb more "red" light).
  • You talk about "em-waves", which cannot be produced by generators, as they are the first waves to arrive at the epicenter of earthquakes (em waves are the waves that travel fastest through the semisolid medium of the mantle). References auras as real objects also is not based on known physics.
  • Your grammar. Please stop abusing those poor commas. I'm going to guess by the grammar that you are in highschool and have a keen interest in technology, so keep up the schoolwork and dont write physics articles.



Most of the points above make little sense. English is not my mother tongue, so please bear with my grammar, it won't be at the level of the rest of this document for sure.
    • Metamaterials work as wave guides. That's the same principle of fiber optic. Nothing new at all in physics, it's just good old refraction, even though it's a major accomplishment in materials engineering.
    • Atoms (like everything) are both waves and particles. Photons behave the same way. And they totally do worry about e=mc2. Please have a look at special relativity. In addition, atoms are not electromagnetic in nature... electromagnetism is a theory of fields and forces, and atoms are matter. The interaction of particles within atoms is very well explained by electromagnetism (in its quantum variation, called QED, but that's another story). I don't understand what neutron activity is.
    • A red shirt tends to reflect red light, not to absorb it. If it adsorbed red light, how would this light get at your eyes?
    • Em waves are longitudinal waves. The theory of waves in matter, which has derives from elasticity, has nothing at all to do with the theory of electromagnetic waves, which is based on Maxwell's equations (in any of their numerous forms, from the classical one to the General Relativity 4-tensor form to the QED forms). The only analogies are formal.
Sorry for the dry tone, but one can't tell others to study physics if s/he doesn't know the basics.
** One last point: what is high-speed energy?????
Paolo 22:26, 3 February 2007 (UTC)

He might be a high school physics enthusiast, but at least he took the time to try and put his thoughts into the report. As far as grammar and the "abused commas," so what? You might want to run your replies through a spellchecker before firing them off into the unknown.

[edit] Come on people

I periodically visit pages I've writen in the past to see if they've been vandalized (one was last week). I arrived here to find what is basically a discussion in the main article, and none here on the discussion page.

Lysdexia, cudos for trying to give the article some balance, but I have to complain about the way you did it. I would be happy if you placed the text in it's own section, but doing it inline makes the artcle very difficult to read. The article is not a discussion page, this is a discussion page.

But my major concern is the attempt at "balance" at all. This story is told by a single mentally ill person, publicized by a number of authors cashing in on the paranormal craze of the 1970s. That's it. There's a major credibility problem here. Before you go on to offer explainations of how it all could have worked, you first have to state why you think it's worth bothering in the first place. No really, this is the most important issue.

I'll offer some headings here to get us started on the real discussion:

Is there any external evidence that anything even remotely like this event ever took place? I'm not even talking physical evidence here, is there anything at all?

try the report written by the government that unfortunately is largely blacked out due to "security reasons" and interview other people who were actually eye witnesses. They exist. But you are right, for some people, this event never happened. If it didn't happen for you, don't write about it with mis- information. For some people, this is completely possible. It depends on what you believe. And then of course there is evidence to support either view--leanne

Is there any reason to believe this is anything more than the writings of someone with too much time on their hands? I could write a considerably more convincing story without the logical problems this one has, I could even mail it to the ONR.

If you can offer answers to those questions then perhaps it is worth trying to explain the rest. But you have to start with these!.

Maury 14:32, 13 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Hey, you misspelled its, explanation, and kudos. (And your addition was full of spelling mistakes. And Func incorrectly corrected two "typos", the -ise ending and the SkepDic site name.) Maury, read the extra information from the SkepDic entry, and the Naval schedule in the earlier link. There seems to be an allowance for the ship to be at Philadelphia. That Inquirer article had almost no details: Who were these sailors, what were they doing on the ship, and what is the evidence that the ship was never in Philadelphia, especially if it were to cross the channel?

I think you may be missing my point (hard to say in text). Ok, the ship COULD have been Philadelphia... and? It could have been in New York, England or the dark side of the moon as well. The only reason the word "Philadelphia" comes up at all is because of the story. See the problem? My point here is that there is no reason to believe the story in the first place. THAT is the important issue here. Until there's compelling evidence that this isn't what it seems to be -- a feeding frenzy -- then saying "well it COULD" have happened..." is premature.
Again, I'd like to return to my starting point. Is there any independant evidence that this actually happened? By this I mean anything that is not 1) a variation of the original story, 2) not directly or indirectly traced back to Allende, and 3) not an equally rediculous story that attached itself to every paranormal event to lend itself credibility.

You left the new headline in even though you don't want discussion in the article. Why don't you restore and reformat my text rather than delete it?

Complaints shouldn't be left in, or brought up at all, if there are their answers left out.

What? If you're going to complain about people's spelling, you might want to at least write your comments in English. (yes, I'm joking)

Oh, and New Scientist did an article finding a link between the Earth's magnetism and gravity over a year ago. lysdexia 10:27, 20 Nov 2004 (UTC)

If someone walked up and told you the contents of the bottle they were holding would cure cancer, make your hair grow back and cure athlete's foot, would you believe them? Probably not, I'm guessing that you'd be very sceptical that any one medicine could have an effect on such widely differing complaints. You'd also be likely to think the person is trying to scam you. Skeptism is a powerful tool, it might just save your life some day.
So when someone says "magnets, gravity, Einstein", why would you lend it any credence? The description of the story sounds like a science fiction story -- it made the ship invisible, travel through time, caused mental problems and fused people with metal. Come on. Even if you're not a physicist it doesn't mean you shouldn't be saying "hmmmmm".
And as a failed physicist, take it from me, the story makes absolutely no sense. It's just a collection of scientific-sounding words strung together almost at random. Here, let me demonstrate: "due to the interactions of electromagetism on the upper atmosphere's ionized layers, gravity has been reduced, creating an inversion that we can use to escape the strong magnetic field!". This is how they write Star Trek episodes; the original author puts in a mark saying "insert technobabble here" and then the continuity people go over it later and make stuff up.
So again, kudos on really trying. My main complaint was the way, not the what, of your additions. But here in the discussion page I'd like to continue on the point at hand -- why would anyone think this story is anything other than what it seems -- a made-up tale by one guy. Don't talk about how it could have worked or that the ship could have been there, address the question as-is: is there any reason to believe this story at all. Maury 16:30, 11 Dec 2004 (UTC)

because dear skeptic some of us are forward thinking, believe that miracels can happen, trust that although technology has brought the human race to the brink of total disaster, it may also be the thing that applied with real consious and heart may save are skeptical, fearful, small thinking species. Lysdexia, thank you for pointing out that it may be possible. Read the report written by the government (tough though since it is mostly blacked out) about the experiment and talk to other people who know a lot more than you about it than you. This is lazy reporting.

Hi, Lysdexia. :) I used a spell checker, which I guess is why I didn't notice the "SkepDic" thing. I'm not sure what you mean about the -ise ending. Articles that concern US subjects are suppose to use US English. func(talk) 22:14, 20 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Well of course the burden of proof isn't in proving that something didn't happen is it? It's in proving that it did. Nobody can prove that I didn't turn into a leopard yesterday while I was on my own in the bath tub but then I can't prove I did either. Which is more likely? [[User:Andy Levett] 16:30, 13 Oct 2006

It is common to claim, as Andy did, that somehow the burden of proof is on "positive" claims rather than "negative". Frankly, this seems utterly strange to me, since the usual argument is something like: since it is harder to prove a universal (i.e., negative) claim, we shouldn't have to. What odd reasoning! If something is hard to prove, assume it is true?
But look at Andy's actual argument: which is more likely? Aha! Here, there is no bias for negative over positive claims! This is merely a question of likelihood and there are many positive claims which are more likely than their negative counterparts: there is almost certainly someone in my county sharing my birthday, even if I have no direct evidence for this fact. It is almost certainly the case that someone failed a spelling test yesterday, although I don't know anyone who did.
Not to single Andy out for this, but let's drop this nonsense about positive versus negative claims. One certainly can prove a negative, in certain circumstances. And in any case, the fact that one can't prove a certain claim has never counted as evidence the claim is true! Phiwum 14:20, 13 October 2006 (UTC)

That's ridculous Phiwum and I'm sure you don't really believe what you've written. We are talking here about a singular event without parallel. It has been proven that all people have a birthday and that spelling tests, of which many people fail, are taken every day. Therefore with the number of people in your state and at school generally, the laws of probability decree that those things being reality are a near certainty based on already proven possibilities. As the events described in The Philidelphia Experiment have no precedent, it's possibility has to be proven before probability can even be applied. The burden of proof is very definitely therefore on those wishing to establish this story as fact.

The most ludicrous thing about people believeing the TPE is the teleportation. People believe that the ship travelled from a point in space to another point in space some 600km away in an instant. Fine, I can handle believing that. However if you want to apply laws of probability ponder on this. Of all the random points in space which it could have reloctated at the given distance, the vessel supposedly ended up at one that was also at sea level seeing as it was spotted floating off the coast of Virginia. Even if you were to accept that teleportation was possible, that's another huge leap of faith.

Andy Levett 14:20, 16 October 2006 (UTC)

19:03, 25 October 2006 (UTC)~NEW INFORMATION19:03, 25 October 2006 (UTC)~ It IS possible, to make something invisible by using EM to warp light around an object. it is being done, RIGHT NOW. look it up.

[edit] Supposed or Documented?

From the article:

Researcher Jacques Vallee describes a supposedly documented experiment

Um, I think it should either be "a documented experiment" or "a supposed experiment". It can't be both, can it?

P.S. I live in Philly. I've noticed the tendency of my socks to disappear, while my coat hangers tend to multiply. Any connection? ;-) func(talk) 18:16, 13 Nov 2004 (UTC)

No, of course there's no connection. Everyone knows that it's paper clips which transform into coat hangers. Your socks are being confiscated by roving bands of Foot Ninja.  :-) Anyway, if Vallee alleges that he personally has documents which support his claim, and announces as such, but does not produce them, then I think that would be a "supposedly documented experiment". - Scooter 06:38, 3 October 2005 (UTC)

This would only make it a "supposedly documented, supposed experiment"

Just because this is fun, and please hit me for doing this, but how about a "supposedly documented, supposed experiment of suspect credibility". Ya, that should work.....omg, I am even gonna sign this Dkriegls 16:54, 9 May 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Marshall Barnes

Anon User:203.26.206.130 added the following discussion point to the article. I've moved it here to the talk page. func(talk) 14:57, 27 Apr 2005 (UTC)

(This article does not include all relevant facts and should be updated to include Marshall Barnes's rebuttal to Vallee's claims. In short, the veteran who served on board the Engstrom is highly suspect, the Engstrom never berthed next to the Eldridge and the Eldridge was not where the veteran claimed it was at the time. Vallee's case is largely unsubstantiated and matches closely with the Official account, which is as credible as Air Force denails of the existence of Area 51.)

[edit] Slightly Different Verison

From what I heard the Philidelphia Experiment had no intention of making anything optically invisible. The entire point of the experiment was to make a ship invisible to radar and sonar using electromaginetic feilds. It's been a while since I looked into this, but the supposed reason everything went hay-wire was because they were using 3 huge generators to create the massive loads of electricity. Unfortunatly the experiment called for perfect syncronization of them (which is physically impossible back then, and today) and the offest is what caused the problems.

This I know for a fact from documents and pictures. The ship was decommisoned and given to Greece after WW2 as military aid. There are holes in the bulkheads for either pipes or wires that were never patched up, in the lower decks a giant room has huge bolts in the floor (like something heavy had to be secured... 3 generators?), and the ship has an ominous green glow at night time. I've heard other stuff about Aliens and Time Travel but nothing solid enough to hold up in a discussion here.

[edit] What Does This Mean ?

From the current article: "This time, Eldridge not only actually became almost entirely invisible to the naked eye, but actually vanished from the area entirely in a flash of blue light."

Apart from too many "actually"s, it seems to me that if it "actually vanished", then it would have been invisible, period. The two things mean the same thing, don't they? What, then, does "became almost entirely invisible" mean? Cheers JackofOz 03:52, 3 September 2005 (UTC)

Uh, my bad on that one, at least as far as "actually" goes. Anyway, what I was saying was not only could it not be seen, but it couldn't be detected in any other way either, because it had vanished. Relevant, since the idea was to make the ship invisible. Does that make better sense? (The grammar I mean - not the situation!) - Scooter 06:42, 3 October 2005 (UTC)
Sorry for taking my time getting back here. I was abducted by invisible aliens and locked in a cosmic vortex for a few months there. (Lol :--)
Are you saying that, despite the fact that it was invisible and undetectable, it was somehow still there? Wouldn't science suggest it no longer existed in that time and place at all? JackofOz 06:49, 25 May 2006 (UTC)
Well, wouldn't it still take up space? I mean, basic physics, once matter is there, no other matter can occupy the space. Unless of course I don't understand this experiemnt like I think I do. It can be undetectable, but it would still occupy that space in that time.
--Rroepke 06:57, 25 May 2006 (UTC)

If you dont mind me stickin my nose on your discussion, I think what whoever wrote that ment to say is "not only it couldnt b visible, but stoped being there" as in it was not there anymore (that being called either "ceasing to exist", or "being instantly transported elsewhere"= teletransported, or so they call it). by this, im obviously not supporting it neither disproving the text in any way. just explaining the way i think it should b understood. cheers Hallaathrad 00:42, 30 October 2006 (gmt -5)

[edit] Role of mass in gravity

Small quarrel with the text:

The description of the system, which uses gravity to bend light around the ship, is theoretically possible, but would require a mass considerably greater than that of the Sun (which does bend light due to gravity, but only slightly - its mass does not warp space-time all that much).

if there is any evidence for such a thing as strong anti-gravity, as some of these TOE theorists suggest, then you could get away with a gradient.. perhaps a spherical or toroidal shell?

It's like that Issaac Asimov story: The scientist proves that a forcefield is impractical because it can't last more than 1/50th of a second. The engineer just makes a forecefield that flashes on and off a thousand times a second. The reason that the statement about the sun is spurious is because no one has claimed that gravity was used in the Phili experiment. A magnetic field was allegedly used--and according to modern physics, magnetic fields do not bend space as far as I know. Puddytang 23:35, 21 January 2007 (UTC)
Puddytang, electromagnetic fields (in relativity there is no such thing as a pure magnetic field) do bend space, through the energy contained in them. But indeed, the energy that one would have to put into a magnetic field strong enough to bend light around a ship would be so much that the Earth's orbit would probably be disturbed... and most of North America's West coast would move a few feet westward... I bet somebody would have noticed. :-)
Paolo 22:10, 3 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] LOST?

Has anybody been watching the ABC series Lost? I don't know about you but the more I read about the Philly experiment and the Montauk stuff the more it correlates with the plot of the show.

-- Specifically the Dharma Project and button operator Desmond... ?

Agreed. While I was pondering the Montauk Project the other day it ocured to me that there could be parallels. I think the Third Policeman angle is the main one and I've grabbed the bok to read, but I do wonder about something like this being added into the mix - it'd work well (Emperor 00:11, 16 April 2006 (UTC))


Same here. Especially with the finale last night. I mean...hello? Yeah, it's pretty much intense. Violet sky? Teleportaion. "Henry" said that Micheal would not be able to find them again. Invisability? Yeah. It's very close.
--Rroepke 06:15, 25 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Gravity's Rainbow

While many things about Pynchon's novel are puzzling, and it certainly borrows heavily from paranormal speculation and conspiracy theory, the title of the book is explained pretty clearly in the text: the rainbow is the path followed by a projectile in free fall, such as a rocket after its motor cuts off (Pynchon describes it as a parabola, though for long distances it would be more accurately described as a section of an ellipse). I'm not sure other explanations are necessary. --Matt McIrvin 13:48, 13 November 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Bold New Ground in POV

The beginning of this article is absolutely ridiculous; not only does the material not 'calmly' discuss what the issue is about, it comes out as all but openly trying to correct anyone on 'thinking it might be real'. It also does not take into account notions such as all the names or even places being changed (there was once a show that claimed to tell stories like that), but the original reality of the material being factual. Not saying that it is, but the write up in this article should be wiped out and started anew, especially in the way it presents the opposing viewpoints. --Chr.K. 01:19, 2 March 2006 (UTC)


"closed minds should come with closed mouths" Thank you for this comment. I agree, the author starts off by stating his personal belief that he doesn't believe the experiments ever happened or that the results of the experiments are not possible. Who would have ever thought it was possible to take photos of Uranus or cure cancer via "energy medicine" or lay down a million miles of hot tar across the continent and drive cars over it? But all of these things currently are true. To state personal dis-belief immediately limits the possiblity to accurately or fairly report. And, clearly it limited the authors research. BTW, here are a couple corrections: a) the bermuda triangle problems are not believed to be a result of the Philidelphia project, rather other experiements conducted in that area in 1913 are believed to have triggered WW1 in 1914, b) there were actually at least two other eye witnesses who claimed to be on the ship and who have come forward. Neither one is mentioned in this article and as you can imagine both seem to have some neurological problems. That seems very consistent to me given the government cover-up and the nature of the experiments, c) Those who have read the government reports, which are not mentioned in this article, say that the pages are mostly blacked out 'for security reasons" They report that there is enough information left to get the gist of the experiment and what happened including that the ship did disappear. d) The experiment was originally headed by Nikola Tesla who died and was replaced by John Van Neumann. Dr. Geno is perhaps one of many who helped run the experiments, the point being that this article is not thorough or the research is not thorough. Tesla was a visionary who claimed he could provide (which he proved) free electricity but there was money to be had and he was bought out and hushed.

It is constantly amazing to me how many people on this earth still believe despite what we know now, that humans are the most intelligent species in the "known" universe. This article smacks of this underlying belief--writing from the point of view that the technology described is more than likely not available. Does the author know this to be absolutely true? Given that scientist have proven that what we as a speices don't know far exceeds what we do know; that Politicians have proven that human beings are not always trustowrthy (and sometimes downright liars and themselves conspiritorial to the public detriment); that psychologist and modern cultural antrhopologist have proven that our belief systems can severely limit our understanding of daily events not to mention universal truths; and, that journalists have proven that reporting from a truely objective point of view is incredibly difficult and takes enormous integrity, it is a wonder that people can still write with such scepticism and get away with it. So, note to the author-- check your belief system , watch your language, make sure you do your research and if you are going to write about science, study it--at least a little. We have known about wave interference for a long, long, long time now. Wave interference or vibrational disharmony has been known since Leonardo as far as I know at least since the first musical instrument. Why couldn't the ship have disappeared after creating disharmonic wave forms, or increasing the energy field until the reflection can no longer be seen? Even the Egyptians new about this and none of us know whether or not this incredible society applied it or not. We just do not know. And we just do not know how honest our government or military is. Of course the people involved are a little wonky--how would you feel if you disappeared and then reappeared accidentally and the government/military tried to convince you it didn't happen. So com'on people,open your minds:). The possibility of invisibility or teleportation could actually contribute to saving our poor human butts from suffering if applied from a place of good will. And, It could contribute to our magnificence as a race if we apply our technologies with heart. So give it some room and, read the right reports. And, remember, our government, military and corporate conglonmerations are not interested in releasing information about technologies that are underdeveloped and can't be charged for. Until, one of those bodies figures out how to make a profit, it is unlikely that any such technology will be shared with the general public. And oops! it doesn't sound like it went all that well for a few human rats involved in the testing. Not something to bragg about, eh? It's happening, read sacred geometry, optic sciences, quantum physics and then decide. We are amazing beings on the brink of some absolutely mind boggling realities--your positivity in all things makes a difference. Leanne

Leanne, I totally agree with you. I think we should listen to everybody, and evaluate it. Major progresses in human knowledge have been produced against the so-called "common sense" how things worked. But honestly, reading your statement, I don't find anything at all that even remotely hints at any proof that this has been done. The day one proves that invisibility can be attained by electromagnetic fields, I will happily burn everything written from Maxwell on. But in order to reject the theory of electromagnetism, which is used daily by me and you and by the eyes of thousands of living animals, I think one would need something more than saying "you know, all papers have been destroyed". Then why don't we say that on that ship the Navy was communicating with the dead? Or that experiments were executed to produce cheesecakes out of steel? These seem equally plausible.
I'm sorry - I'm not trying to ridicule you, bear with me. What I'm trying to say is that this really looks like a total hoax.
On your points:
a) I don't comment it for lack of knowledge on my side
b) Who are these witnesses?
c) Who read the government reports? Is it possible to scan a copy and post it on the article site?
d) Nikola Tesla never provided free electricity, as far as it's known. If any form of energy could be produced "free", all we knew about the universe (not joking - seriously all) would be false. This can well be, but some evidence would be nice to have.
Paolo 22:06, 3 February 2007 (UTC)