Talk:Phar Lap
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I wasn't intending to demean Phar Lap when I changed "considered" to "considered by many", but in North America I think the general view is that he may have been one of the greatest but was denied a chance to prove it. He didn't get a shot at whupping the best American horses, in particular the mighty Equipoise. I don't think the Agua Caliente field was particularly strong that year. Trontonian 22:54, 7 Apr 2004 (UTC)
- Hmmmm. Irrelevant. This one-eyed kiwi feels compelled to remind you he carried 58.5 kg to a Agua Caliente track record. ): Moriori 23:18, Apr 7, 2004 (UTC)
Equipoise set a world record for the mile the same year (carrying a similar weight, I would think, since he tended to be assigned huge weights, and anyway I think 129 is standard weight for a four-year-old), and in 1933 won the Metropolitan carrying 26 pounds more than the runner-up. A match race between him and Phar Lap would probably have been spectacular. I do have a bit of an agenda, though – I think the best race horse out of New Zealand is Cardigan Bay. He got a chance to beat the best and he did. But difference of opinion is what makes horse races, eh? I must also admit that recently my skills at judging the local horseflesh have been a little deficient. Trontonian 23:25, 7 Apr 2004 (UTC)
The New York Times publication Mid-Week Pictorial (April 2, 1932, with Phar Lap the full cover page) says Phar Lap got off to a terrible start in the Aqua Caliente, was back in last place, and still set a track record. Many Phar Lap records stood for over 30 years, and some of those were set with the horse carrying a big load on his back.
In 1999 The Blood-Horse produced a list of the Top 100 Racehorses of the 20th Century. They got a panel of seven writers to do the voting. As the Wikipedia entry says, Phar Lap was ranked #22. However, it is instructive to read the forward to this book, written by editor William R. Nack. Mr Nack writes: "And what to do about Phar Lap (No. 22)? After Secretariat’s triumph in the Triple Crown, the writer asked the elderly Francis Dunne, then a steward in New York, whether Man o’ War or Secretariat was the greatest horse that he had ever seen. "Neither," said Francis. "I saw Phar Lap."
Similarly, Charlie Whittingham, who trained Ferdinand, Sunday Silence, and Exceller, saw many great horses in his lifetime. He was at the 1932 Aqua Caliente Handicap and later wrote, "I never got to see Man o' War. But he'd have to be a helluva horse to be better than Phar Lap."
- Much of what you say about Phar Lap can be said of Equipoise, especially the huge weights. Equipoise faced stronger fields, too. He was left in the gate in the Pimlico and still beat Twenty Grand and Mate while wearing only two shoes. Yes, Phar Lap may have been a greater horse than Equipoise (ranked #21, as I recall), but then again he may not have been. A great horse wins grade 1 and group I stakes races. That Phar Lap never had the opportunity to prove he could do that is the tragedy. Looking at it another way, I'm a Canadian and so I greatly admire Northern Dancer. But if he'd died right after producing Nijinsky II I couldn't say he was the greatest sire of his era. John FitzGerald 01:38, 25 Nov 2004 (UTC)
- I doubt that Phar Lap could have taken Equipoise on home territory. Equipoise was considered to be a freak. The greatest NZ racehorse is possibly Horlicks. She beat the best horses in the world from America, Asia and Europe, and also won the Japan Cup in World Record time over 2400 meters, in 2.22!! Of course Australians would say she was an Australian racehorse, as she raced in Australia (just like Phar Lap). Wallie 07:00, 25 September 2005 (UTC)
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- I think it's interesting that the Museum Victoria compares Phar Lap, not to Equipoise, but to Carbine. They point out similar performances, and say that at the time, there was a rivalry of sorts, but Carbine has been largely forgotten, while Phar Lap got lots of press. You can't really compare the statistics of weights and times, because horses don't race against a stopwatch so much as they race against each other. Give a good horse a highly competitive field to race against, and he'll race harder; give him a field of mediocre horses, and he'll run more slowly. Come to think of it, people behave pretty much in the same way: they rise to a challenge. ClairSamoht 09:47, 18 March 2006 (UTC)
Can someone go through this article and make the weights consistent? At least one is in stones & pounds, while another is in pounds only. I've got no idea how many pounds are in a stone, or I'd do it myself.
Yes, the article says Phar Lap was born and bred in New Zealand, but it then goes on to celebrate his supposed Australian citizenship - even including a quote by the Aussie cyclist who seems to think Phar Lap was an Aussie horse. I guess I dont have a problem with the article, however I hope all who read it will take umbrage, as I did, at how obviously Australia wants to claim him. Nope. He was ours. Born and rasied in NZ. Sorry.
Any Kiwi who takes umbrage at the suggestion Phar Lap was an Aussie horse is very likely a victim of Kiwi media propaganda. Phar Lap is, for all intents and purposes, an Aussie. End of story. Phar Lap captured the imagination of the Australian public during the great depression and holds a central position in Australian cultural history. A comparison can be made with the great American race horse Seabiscuit. Any Kiwi claim to Phar Lap can be correctly interpreted as a retrospective rewrite of history by which the impact of Phar Lap on Kiwi society at the time is highly overstated. And therein lies the crux of the matter. Although Kiwis may technically be able to claim Phar Lap's place of birth, they can never claim his soul. That belongs in Australia. (c) Ernest the Sheep
Hi. I put in this bit in the article... "Although Phar Lap was bred in New Zealand, he was very much a part of the Australian racing scene during his long and distinguished career.". I hope it sums things up. The story of Phar Lap belongs to both Australia and New Zealand. Isn't this what the ANZAC spirit is all about? You can say "Phar Lap" was an Australian horse. You can also say "Phar Lap" was a New Zealand horse. Both statements are equally true. The same applies to the great horses Gloaming and Nightmarch that older people also mention from the same period. Wallie 18:21, 16 April 2006 (UTC)
Difference though is that unlike Phar Lap, both Gloaming and Nightmarch had racing careers in New Zealand. A fact also overlooked by the kiwi reviewer of the book about Phar Lap mentioned in the external links. I also note in the sections of the article dealing with Phar Lap's untimely demise and his cultural significance, that there is very little information given concerning the New Zealand experience. I'm guessing that this is due to the fact that the literature on the subject is of Australian origin and hence gives the Australian perspective. Perhaps you could do some research yourself by visiting your local library where hopefully they can provide you with the newspapers of the time. Then you might be able to include evidence in the article proving that Phar Lap also had a significant impact on everyday life in New Zealand. Otherwise it could be argued that New Zealand claims on Phar Lap are nothing more than a retrospective grab for glory.Ernest the Sheep 11:10, 27 January 2007 (UTC)
I changed the phrase "In 2006 it was revealed by the Australian Synchrotron Research Program that he was poisoned with a large dose of arsenic", because it is not of absolute certainty that it was that that killed him. The study thus far has only proved that there was a high level of arsenic in his system, which can be explained away.
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[edit] Aussies Have Identity Issues
"Phar Lap captured the imagination of the Australian public during the great depression and holds a central position in Australian cultural history." Okay, great. No-one seems to have mentioned that it did the same in New Zealand. Everyone was thrilled that a Kiwi horse won the Melbourne Cup. Perhaps Australasian, or ANZAC may be more accurate? It may be prudent to note the number of horses that are New Zealand born in Australia. Australians, as far as I am aware, are not so keen to claim those. I wonder why they might want to claim a successful horse? Furthermore: "Although Kiwis may technically be able to claim Phar Lap's place of birth..." I would say there is nothing technical about it - as far as I am aware, Timaru is in New Zealand, unless it has changed recently. This person is trying to belittle the New Zealand aspect to Phar Lap. And the statement "they can never claim his soul. That belongs in Australia" is also aimed at being provocative. (As far as I am concerned, you guys can have the soul, we'll have the skeleton. Hope you enjoy that soul.) The article is also seems to refer to Phar Lap as having Australian citizenship - that reminds me, must get some photos taken of my cat and apply for a passport. I think the attitude of some of the above people is crazy, and not very friendly at all... Although most of my comments havn't been very friendly either... However, I agree with the person directly above me - that Phar Lap is and will forever be part of ANZAC, (If you like, AUSTRALASIAN) culture. This is something that will never be resolved. But of course, I am pro-NZ, so I will state that: There is one definite fact, and that is that Phar Lap was born in New Zealand.
Hi. It's Ernie here. I made the comment about Phar Lap capturing the imagination of the Australian public during the great depression in order to try and emphasize the importance not only of Phar Lap's achievements, but also how important Phar Lap's influence on the social climate of the time is to his legend. A point lost on most New Zealanders. Yes, I'm quite sure there was a certain amount of pride in New Zealand that a "Kiwi" horse had won the Melbourne cup. Just as I'm sure there was some pride in circles in the UK following Makybe Diva's recent threepeat in that race. However I some how doubt that the Poms will still be whinning on about the fact 50 years from now. That is because they are a proud nation with a rich culture and history of their own to celebrate. Unlike New Zealand it would seem, who seem rather desperate to appropriate a piece of Australian sporting folklore as their own. Presumably because it appears to be so much more appealing and exciting than any of their own, at least through the eyes of insecure Kiwis. It's all just another symptom of the Kiwi inferiority complex and issues of national identity that Kiwis are struggling with. The fact is the NZ component of the Phar Lap story pretty much ends when he is brought over to Australia.
I'm not meaning to be provocative with any of the above comments, rather I'm just stating it the way it is. The sooner Kiwis realise the farcical nature of their obsession with Phar Lap, and indeed all things Australian in general, the quicker they will be able to establish a national identity for themselves.
- Just thought i'd throw in my two cents. I work at Te Papa and on a daily basis get to watch as proud NZers look at the skeleton of Phar-Lap. Particularly older NZers who had the privilage of witnessing the amazing story of this horse. NZ is a small country and does not have (and especially did not at the time) the population to do justice to a great horse, or musician, or actor etc. The reason our greatest in all these fields spent a good portion of their career in Australia is because of the larger population, economy etc. It would be fool-hardy for us to keep a horse of Phar-Laps calibre in New Zealand because of national pride (what good is having a great horse if it can't achieve great things) Australia is a stepping stone for many NZ artists and talents (Just like Phar Lap) to achieve greatness. That does not take away form the fact that these great Kiwi icons are from NZ. I understand that Phar-Lap was a big hit in Australia and you were all proud of him (So were we, Indeed a look into historical NZ papers will reveal this to anyone willing to look). Maybe NZers do have an inferiority complex, it is not hard to see why when there are Australians (like you Ernest the Sheep and you unsigned writer) thumping on at us about being unreasonable when we try to retain some semblence of our small countries great achievements. It also does not help that the voice of these Australians is (populationally) akin to that of an air horn vs a squeeking mouse. The amount of NZ bashing in this talk page is incredible. It is worth asking who has the worse inferiority complex when they have to try to claim other countries great achievements as their own (Speaking merely of individuals on this talk page, not of Australians in general). Yes Phar-Lap made these great achievements in Australia, Yes he was an Australian icon (So is Neil Finn), But no, He was not an Australian Horse, He was a New Zealand Horse. I challenge you to provide a coherent argument that he is not. And if you do take that challenge, please try to steer clear of abstract concepts like souls, that doesn't convince or impress anyone. And people let's try to stay friendly.Guavafruit 01:32, 8 February 2007 (UTC)
This just in dude. Phar Lap was a horse, not a person. So it really is ridiculous of you to attempt to compare him with the likes of Neil Finn, who you have rather oddly described as being an Australian icon. Why not add Ed Hillary while you're at it?. Indeed if you are a Kiwi (as I am, btw) then you will well remember the (feigned) outrage and indignation there was here over that book by Peter FitzSimons that supposedly made such a claim. Of course it was mostly exaggerated nonsense on the part of the NZ media. I do find it rather amusing though just how often such incidents occur. I'm forever reading contrived pieces in the press here starting along the lines of "First it was Phar Lap, Pavlova, Split Enz ....., now those Aussies are claiming such and such a Kiwi" (who if truth be told the majority of Aussies would have probably never heard of). C'mon dude you know it's true! Kiwis have this desperate need to believe that the Aussies are trying to steal their supposed icons or stars. I'm not sure of the exact psychological reason behind this, but I suspect it has something to to with the Kiwi chip-on-the-shoulder mentality, and a need to believe that Australians are jealous of them, when the opposite is closer to the truth. As for your challenge to provide a coherent argument that Phar Lap was A Kiwi and not an Aussie horse, well I can only conclude that the arguments that I have presented previously on this page went over your head. I can't see much point in me repeating it all again. You clearly fail to understand the true nature of Phar Lap's legend.Ernest the Sheep 23:25, 27 March 2007 (UTC)
[edit] Stride
Has anyone got measures on Pharlap's stride. A horse's heart size, lung capacity, spleen size, and stride can contribute towards analyzing a winner. It might be instructive to study the statistics of the top 25 horses (distance, extra weighting, time, track conditions, temperature, times of other horses, heart weight or size, stride length, etc.) to simulate a horse race much as they do with computer football and basketball and boxing. Stride length can be measured looking at the old Movietone newsreels.
[edit] To the "My Horse, no my horse" argument..
Holy hell what a typically Australian view, i am talking about the convict remnant harping on about "all things Australian" you take it as if Kiwis are systematically and obsessively stealing Australian icons, like we ant to be recognised with such backwardness. Please don't get it twisted, were trying to preserve value and honor by distancing great things from Australian ownership so as to not taint them by proxy.. Yes I'm joking, no i'm not serious, but is this argument? Its a Horse and if anything more a representation of hope and strength, does that really need to be claimed to a certain geographic local? Its as if this were the Lindsay Lohan article and your trying to say she was west side and not east.. ahhhh get over it. Oh, btw. Just to be clear, we don't want Russel Crowe, the Aussie's can have him, but by god if i hear that Pavlova argument... =P p.s a-la disclaimer: All ribbing (joking, joshing, towel cracking or leg pulling) is done in the time honored and traditional tradition and spirit of the "Sheep Jokes and Underarm Bowling" relationship, its a special and unique relationship that outsiders may not quite understand but is completely positive *cough*. Please don't flame me. =)
Dude. Ernie here. I'm a Kiwi. Was born here. Have lived most of my life here. But thanks for asking anyway, you big goose. Now, ignoring all the fluff in your above little diatribe, which would appear to be most of it, the point you seem to be making is that Phar Lap was *only* a horse. Which kind of says it all really. Like most Kiwis you miss the point. Phar Lap was much *more* than just a horse. How else could his legend be accounted for if it were otherwise? His myth is inextricably linked with the Australia of the depression era. A connection in time, place, and in the national psyche. You just can't share these sorts of things. So I find it curious that a lot of Kiwis seem to want to.
Now is it the race that stops a nation, or as is often said here in NZ, is it the race that stops two nations? Australians don't seem to mind. Yet Kiwis can be oddly possessive. Rusty Crowe? Pavlova? Definitely Kiwi. Indeed a great deal of research has been put into confirming the later. Obviously an important component for the Kiwi psyche. Aussies don't appear to care as much. Or perhaps they're just more generous. Enter the name of Australia's greatest war heroine Nancy Wake into the google search engine. The first hit is a Kiwi website proclaiming her to be a Kiwi hero. I don't know about you dude, but I find it just a tad embarrassing that the names of people who hardly spent any time living in NZ can be bandied about as being famous NZers, or NZ heroes. I blame it on the Kiwi inferiority complex. The national insecurity. The need for outside affirmation.
Yes dude, it might be a *unique* relationship, but the truth is that Kiwis pay a great deal more attention to Australians than the reverse.
Ernie... Dude... Pull ya head in pal —Preceding unsigned comment added by 139.173.54.12 (talk) 00:18, 6 December 2007 (UTC)
[edit] Phar Lap statue
Hey people, I'm the one who started the Dutch article about Phar Lap and have to say: what a beautifull article. When I've got the time, I'm surely going to translate some of your stuff into our one. But in the meantime: your article tells about the bronze statue they are going to create in Timaru, but on my travels through NZ, I already found one at the farm he was born, a photo of it is on our Dutch article. It's made out of Oamaru white-stone. Cheers, Cyriellie 16:28, 7 August 2006 (UTC)
[edit] size?
How big ís the horse: the article says that he's both: "was a giant chestnut gelding, standing 17.1 hands," and "Phar Lap stannding at 12hands high making him the smallest racehorse ever. Phar Lap was competing with horses standing 17hands high" (80.101.20.20 08:39, 5 June 2007 (UTC))
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- The statements you read were vandalism, and have now been reverted. - Gobeirne 09:15, 5 June 2007 (UTC)
[edit] Racing Record
Hey is it possible for someone to put a heading row on the tables in this section.. I'm not sure what some of those columns refer to. Thanks! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 60.240.246.159 (talk) 13:52, 1 November 2007 (UTC)
[edit] What does this mean exactly ?
"Although syndicating a winning racehorse can be quite lucrative, Telford gelded Phar Lap anyway, hoping that the colt would concentrate on racing."
This sentence and the reference to gelding , means it would be about the horse's potential post-racing career as a stud. However thats not what "syndicating" means. Syndicating means selling part-ownership shares in the horse to investors. I think this sentence needs to be changed. Eregli bob 03:54, 13 November 2007 (UTC)
[edit] anti semitism???
on the sleve for the vhs version of this movie it is claimed that pharlap's success was impeded by the racing comission because pharlaps trainer was jewish and the racing comission was anti-semetic. what? there is little reference to dave davis being jewish and anti-semetism had nothing to do with the commissions grudge against pharlap. pharlap won and won and won. nobody wanted to put their horses against him and the bookmakers wouldnt take any bets for pharlap because he always won. why do people inject this type of crap into the sleve of a movie? does the myth of antisemetism need to be spread that badly?Ethmegdav (talk) 05:09, 10 December 2007 (UTC)
[edit] Date of foaling
According to most sources, Phar Lap was born 4 October 1926 – e.g. [1]. But this says it was 26 October 1926. Is the latter date incorrect? -- JackofOz (talk) 08:39, 29 April 2008 (UTC)
- Here's another one which gives the date as 28 October [2]. If the NewZealand Stud Book has the date recorded as 4 October I think we should accept that, rather than the sales catalogue.- Cuddy Wifter (talk) 23:01, 29 April 2008 (UTC)
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- Thanks. Phar Lap being born in 1926, it's a simple error to put 26 October rather than 4 October. I guess that could lead to mis-reading and hence we get variations on an error, such as 28 October. I'll put the 4 October date into the article. I can't believe it's not already there. -- JackofOz (talk) 00:01, 30 April 2008 (UTC)
[edit] Phar Lap a New Zealand national icon?
This claim is made in the article, yet there is no evidence provided to substantiate it. While on the other hand plenty of evidence is available to back up the assertion that Phar Lap is indeed a much loved Aussie nation icon. From the reaction of the public at the time of his untimely demise, preserved by the newspapers of the day, as well as an extensive literature which includes coverage of Phar Lap's impact on Australian culture, to a song and even a movie. Where's the discussion of Phar Lap's impact on the New Zealand culture? There is none, because the claim that Phar Lap is a New Zealand icon is a fabrication of history, an invention if you like. If Phar Lap is a New Zealand icon then it is only as a symbol of New Zealand's insecurity and inferiority complex. There is no genuine love or fascination with the Phar Lap story within the general New Zealand public. If this claim of Phar Lap being a New Zealand national icon cannot be backed up by evidence then it should be removed in accordance with Wikipedia policy.Ernest the Sheep (talk) 07:53, 8 May 2008 (UTC)
- When in New Zealand, people told me, that "Phar Lap was anothor thing the ozzies stole from the kiwi's" (sic). I do think the kiwi's are proud of him, illustrated by for instance statues and roads named after him. Ciell (talk) 21:11, 9 May 2008 (UTC)
- Well that can't be right, it clearly states in the article that the colt was purchased at auction.Ernest the Sheep (talk) 12:11, 18 May 2008 (UTC)
