User talk:Pfold

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Greetings!
My name is Ryan, and it's my pleasure to welcome you, Pfold, to Wikipedia! First of all, I'd like to thank you for joining the project, and contributing to articles and discussion. I hope you can continue to take part in Wikipedia, because we need more valuable editors like yourself.

If you are new and need some assistance, here are some great links to check out:

I hope you enjoy editing here, and being a Wikipedian! If you have any questions, find out where to ask a question or ask me on my talk page. Before I go, here's one more tip. When you post on talk pages, be sure to sign your name and the date by typing four tildes: ~~~~. That automatically generates your username and the date. Again, welcome, and happy editing!  --King of All the Franks 23:41, 24 January 2006 (UTC)

I, Editor Mareino, award you the exceptional newcomer barnstar award, for your citations to sources and willingness to tackle scholarly subjects.--M@rēino 00:18, 26 January 2006 (UTC)
I, Editor Mareino, award you the exceptional newcomer barnstar award, for your citations to sources and willingness to tackle scholarly subjects.--M@rēino 00:18, 26 January 2006 (UTC)

Contents

[edit] A Help Request: Language Map

About two weeks ago, I took a JPG file that had the Indo-European language tree on it and transferred the information to a (I hope) "sleeker" new SVG document. [[1]]. Unfortunately, I know very little about what exactly I was recreating. I added everything from the original to the new version, which has left rather enigmatic language names and numbers on it that I can't explain. User:Kwamikagami told me that the numbers are called "confidence levels," if that helps. I was wondering if you could possibly explain what these mean so I could add a explanation on the image page, or do something else to make things clearer for readers. Thanks so much for you time.

[edit] Old High German

I wonder if you could answer some of my questions on Old High German talk, as you reverted my edits. Rex 17:26, 4 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] what is a title page? and do you plan to restore...?

Hello,

See Historical linguistics — you added text about a title page, which confuses me.

modern books have title pages which give the date of publication, so the language can be dated - manuscripts tend not to have title pages and are usually not accurately datable. Unfortunately the title page article lacks any historical information about the development of the device.

And do you plan to take the stuff on comparative linguistics that you removed from that page and put it on the comparative linguistics page? I only looked briefly; maybe I missed some that you did move...

--Ling.Nut 17:42, 6 December 2006 (UTC)

Sorry, don't understand what you mean. I think one of your reference to comparative linguistics must be meant to be soemthing else. --Pfold 17:53, 6 December 2006 (UTC)
Your explanation here is a bit more clear, but on the historical linguistics page the reference to a title page seems unconnected to the topic...
I was talking about your edit of 7 April 2006 with the edit summary cut comparative material.
Do you think we can cite all the info on the historical linguistics page and match it to its source?
Thanks --Ling.Nut 18:15, 6 December 2006 (UTC)
Sorry, still not quite clear on this - is it that you want to me to put the cut material on the comparative linguistics talk page? --Pfold 17:38, 10 December 2006 (UTC)
Well, put it somewhere so that people can see if there's anything useful in it. :-) The talk page of the comparative linguistics page is as good a place as any. :-)
Also the historical linguistics page needs some serious Wikipedia:Verifiability help, if I remember correctly. :-)
I might be able to help in a couple weeks, but it's final exams time right now...
--Ling.Nut 18:06, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Siegfried

Dear Pfold:

I have no personal background in the history of Siegfried or the related legends. The article on Sigurd (note the name; Siegfried redirects there) seems to say that the earliest appearance of the legend was in Sweden. It also says that the name Sigurd appears to be a Norse corruption of the German Siegfried, so this is confusing. Wikipedians interested in Norse mythology are very prolific (except with source citations), and it is possible that they are contributing their own slant to many articles. You may want to explore these articles and correct them, if necessary. Finell (Talk) 03:14, 4 February 2007 (UTC)

Yes, the Sigurd page is misleading about the origins of the legend. I'm planning to put up a proper Siegfried page when I can find the time. --Pfold 09:54, 5 February 2007 (UTC)


[edit] Old Bavarian

Dear Pfold, you seem to be an expert on historical linguistics and medieval germanic languages. I found out that even by recognized scholars of German philology about a third of Old German (or Old High German) primary sources are classified as "Old Bavarian". Among them some very prominent ones like:



Of course, the romantic nationalistic scholars of the 19th century claimed all of those primary sources for German, not mentioning their Bavarian (and not Frankonian) character. This was done among others by the especially notorious Grimm brothers. I would like to add this information into Wikipedia, but I am intimidated to do so, because especially German users don't want to hear about this (by the way, I am modern-Bavarian speaking Austrian). A lot of the vocabulary of those texts is not even listed in Old High German dictionaries.

Did you ever hear about this "bavarian connection"? Is there any information about this in English language scientific literature? I think especially the Lay of Hildebrand was investigated by English and American scholars, because of its partly Old-Saxon character. Perhaps they found out something. Many thanks in advance ... --El bes 20:36, 22 October 2007 (UTC) (My account at the bavarian Wikipedia)

Bavarian is an OHG dialect, so it's perfectly legitimate to call a Bavarian text OHG. Indeed OHG is really just a cover term for a related group of dialects. There's no nationalism or conspiracy or cover-up here. These texts have not been "claimed for German". Not to mention the fact that many Bavarian texts do in fact have some Franconian features, arising from the political and ecclesiastical relationship between the Bavaria and the Carolingian Empire. The text of the Hildebrandlied is not Bavarian, but a dialect mixture with some definitely and some possibly Bavarian features.
And, of course, your own point of view could be characterised as nationalistic, as you want to claim the texts for Bavarian as if that's excluded by their being OHG! I think you need to familiarise yourself with much more of the scholarship before adding material on this subject to WP - other editors will (rightly) expect you to cite sources for anything they're not familiar with from the literature. --Pfold 11:41, 23 October 2007 (UTC)
Thanks for the detailed answer. I am perfectly aware of what you say and would never put my personal point of view into a wikipedia article, unless I find some goods scientific sources to rely on. But on the Talk page it is still allowed to raise such questionsn, istn' it?
Perhaps the misunderstanding results from the fact that in English literature, scholars seem to make a distinction between Old German (all dialects, including Old Saxon) and Old Upper German (Lombardian, Alemannic and Bavarian). I saw this definition in the Encyclopedia Britannica [2] and never read about it in German language literature. There the word Old HIGH German is used almost synonimousely to Old German, and never Old Upper German. --El bes 12:28, 23 October 2007 (UTC)


Sorry for disturbing you again. I just saw that you contribute to the High German consonant shift‎ article. The above findings open a completely new view on the consonant shift. Because the Abrogans dictionary, that might really be the oldest Old German primary source, already has implemented the consonant shift. How is it possible, that in a shift from A to B, B is the form we see in the very oldest text? Isn't there some mistake in the whole concept or perhaps just some wrong age determination? --El bes 20:45, 22 October 2007 (UTC)
You have overlooked the fact that there were people speaking OHG long before the earliest surviving texts! I'm afraid that nothing you say "opens a completely new view on the consonant shift." --Pfold 11:41, 23 October 2007 (UTC)
I am perfectly aware of the fact, that any language is spoken for generations before it is written down for the first time. But as a matter of fact, you cannot give any information about the time of the consonant shift, or the time when the Old Upper German (Lombard, Alemannic, Bavarian) group drifted apart linguistically. --El bes 12:28, 23 October 2007 (UTC)

[edit] no conspiracy, no cover-up:

In the article about Otfrid of Weissenburg, the specific variant of old west-germanic is explicitly mentioned as (Old) South Rhine Frankonian, see:

"Otfrid of Weissenburg (German: Otfrid von Weißenburg) (c. 800 - after 870) was a monk at Weissenburg (modern-day Wissembourg in Alsace) and the author of a gospel harmony in rhyming couplets now called the Evangelienbuch. It is written in the South Rhine Franconian dialect of Old High German."

In the article on the "Ludwigslied" there is also a very detailed analysis of the specific language variant, see:

"The dialect of the poem generally regarded as Rhine Franconian, though there are some peculiarities which have received a variety of explanations. It is assumed that the manuscript was written by a bilingual scribe in Saint-Amand and we have no other example of an OHG text from this area. Some regard it as the sole textual example of the otherwise little known West Franconian dialect, which is assumed to have been the language of the Carolingian court."

Why aren't you putting the Lay of Hildebrand article at the same sophisticated level of historical linguistics? I suppose, because than you would have to mention its bavarian characteristics explicitely? I would be very pleased, if you prove me wrong.

Don't be silly. I will do it when I get time to check on the agreed Bav. characteristics. --Pfold 10:59, 31 October 2007 (UTC)

P.S.: Perhaps the fact, that the monastry of Fulda was founded by a bavarian monch (Saint Sturm), explains why in Frankonian speaking area there was written a (semi)-Bavarian text. --El bes 19:00, 30 October 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Comparative linguistics/History of linguistics > Joseph Scaliger

Hi Pfold. I am looking for some pointers from a more experienced editor on an addition I am working on relating to Joseph Scaliger and the beginnings of comparative linguistics. If you are interested, please see the top of my talkpage for details. Thanks. Varoon Arya 13:44, 12 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Germanic Parent Language

Hi again, Pfold. I just finished writing a first draft of an article entitled Germanic Parent Language. I am expecting one of three things to happen: (1) It is completely ignored, seeing as it doesn't (read: any longer) link to any pages in the mainspace; (2) I am given a royal thrashing for having written it (I've already had one promised to me) and receive half-hearted death-threats (but only half) from certain editors; (3) a few tid-bits of information are gleaned from it to be incorperated elsewhere, and the bulk is cast upon the ever-growing heap of rejected stubs. Somewhere inside, I'm hoping for (4) some gallant senior editor will see the value in it, and suggest it be linked somewhere where it won't cause anyone to lose too much sleep. But I'm not holding my breath on that one. Anyways, could you take a look at it? (And perhaps spare the rod if you decide to go for (2)?) Thanks. Varoon Arya 04:30, 14 November 2007 (UTC)

UPDATE: Well, the stub has apparently survived the preliminary round (ca. 24 hours), though it has been suggested to merge it with Proto-Germanic. If you get the chance, please drop by and voice your opinion. Thanks. Aryaman (☼) 03:08, 15 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] London Meetup - January 12, 2008

Hi! There's going to be a London Wikipedia Meetup coming Saturday January 12, 2008. If you are interested in coming along take part in the discussion over at Wikipedia:Meetup/London7. The discussion is going on until tomorrow evening and the official location and time will be published at the same page late Thursday or early Friday. Hope to see you Saturday, Poeloq (talk) 03:28, 10 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] A new Oxbridge user box

Pfold...I am currently in the process of writing a user box for all of the colleges that are part of Oxbridge. This template is meant to replace your current college template. Please take a look at the work in progress and comment on it. My main concerns are college abbreviations and color choice. I am using scarf colors for the colleges. Thank you. - LA @ 17:36, 9 March 2008 (UTC)