User talk:Peter Deer

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[edit] Thank you!

Hi Peter,

I hope everything is going well with you. I just saw your userpage. Thank you for the trust you have in me.

Take care!!

Cheers, --Be happy!! (talk) 00:40, 12 May 2008 (UTC)

You should thank yourself rather than me. I posted that on there because your edits have been helpful, reliable, and have greatly improved wikipedia's coverage of articles pertaining to Islam.
While I know it's not your specific area of expertise, if you wouldn't find it offensive to do so, I would actually welcome your help editing and expanding upon certain Baha'i articles. I'm always a bit hesitant to try and completely overhaul a page even if it needs it, especially religious pages where you get fierce adherents on one side and devious polemics on the other. I have a couple specific projects in mind if you're interested. May you go in God's care. Peter Deer (talk) 15:13, 12 May 2008 (UTC)
Thank you Peter.
Of course there is nothing "offensive" about editing certain wikipedia articles. As you know I don't know much about Bahai faith so I am not sure if I can be helpful there. It also appears that you guys are already doing a good job there :)
Unfortunately I am also getting increasingly busy in the real life and am reducing my involvement in Wikipedia.
Cheers, --Be happy!! (talk) 03:28, 13 May 2008 (UTC)
I ask you because you are experienced at editing and improving articles pertaining to religion, particularly Islam. As to being offensive, many Muslim jurists have strongly condemned Baha'is (both morally and 'to death') and have accused Baha'is of being a zionist political movement as opposed to a religion. So, yeah a few Muslims I've mentioned the Baha'i faith to have accused me of being a spy for Israel and stuff like that (being American probably didn't help in that regard.) so while I wouldn't have assumed you would be offended I do respect you and your right to believe or otherwise and didn't want to give you the impression that I was trying to hook you into my religion. May you go in God's care. Peter Deer (talk) 03:45, 13 May 2008 (UTC)
I am aware of the unfortunate situation of Bahais in Iran.
I think accusations of zionist connections specifically may have their origin in Bahai pilgrimages to their holy sites located in a country, not recognized by Iran as a legitimate state (most Iranian people indeed have a pretty negative view of Israel as a state and how it was formed).
Anyways, I want to let you know that I personally have no negative feeling towards Bahais just as I don't have any negative feeling toward Buddhists, Hindus etc; I know one Bahai and he is a nice person. On the other hand, I simply do not know much about the religion so that I can contribute to its articles; this is exactly the same reason that I do not contribute to say Buddhism related articles. It might be better for me to read instead of editing or I will mess things up :) If there are however editors who are violating wikipedia policies on certain controversial pages, please do let me know and I'll try to help as much as I can. Cheers, --Be happy!! (talk) 09:45, 13 May 2008 (UTC)
Thank you. Maybe one day I spent some time studying the religion; at the moment however far important to me are topics like the philosophical questions of free will- how the physical laws and the spiritual world can co-exit - recent insights about the function of brain from neuroscience and their possible theological implication- Evolution - Materialism - Biblical Archeology etc. What is on the stake for me is not whether one religion or the other; it is a question that affects the whole concept of religion all-together. That's what I think about usually when I get free. Take care, --Be happy!! (talk) 22:19, 13 May 2008 (UTC)
Some Answered Questions seems right up your alley. It's mind-blowingly advanced thinking for being a hundred years old. Peter Deer (talk) 23:08, 13 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] So

Why'd you remove my edit?--Angel David (talk) 23:46, 12 May 2008 (UTC)

I was not fond of you editing my post in a way I felt gave an implication I did not desire to make. And I find it even more annoying that you felt the need to repeat your offense once I came by and undid it.
Elohim is but one word in Hebrew for God, just as Allah is but one name for God in Arabic. If you wanted to be specific regarding the name of God in both languages, it would be יְהֹוָה and الله respectively. But as I was speaking in English, and referring to one specific Being, I did not want it to be linked to two separate articles when I was referring clearly to God, the subject of the article.
Please refrain from editing others' comments in the future. May you go in God's care. Peter Deer (talk) 00:24, 13 May 2008 (UTC)
Sorry--Angel David (talk) 22:26, 13 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Hello!

I'm here again, but with no apologies needed. As you can see, I don't go on Wikipedia that often. That was why I mentioned about the vandalizm on Pokemon Pikachu at such a late date. Now I have to do a school project on famous artists so, starting from now, I will be here a lot searching for information. Looking for vandalizm to clear along the way. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Draconian24 (talk • contribs) 20:10, 16 May 2008 (UTC)

I'm glad to hear it, it's always good to have more active and dedicated contributors. If you have any questions feel free to ask. Peter Deer (talk) 21:06, 16 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Opinion on pictures

I have been engaging in dialogue with other Shi'a Muslims in regards to pictures of Imams. While it is in the scholarship world permitted by most, there is still a cultural ensnare against them. Outside of that however, there is the contention that they are unrealistic. This is true. The debate occurs whether we should use calligraphy. I argue against calligraphy because I believe that to most non-Muslims it means very little, and even if they recognize it, it will only be a certain work of calligraphy. You are Bahai, so it may be different since you perhaps know some Arabic or Persian script, but still you are knowledgable enough and unbiased enough to help on this issue. I feel the use of pictures, using the phrase depiction to show that it isn't necessarily accurate, is the best route to go, and easier for non-Muslims (depictions of Imam Ali (AS), Imam Hasan (AS), and Imam Husayn (AS) are generally the same across the board, but not so much for other Imams (AS)). What is your opinion? Tell me what you think inTalk:Twelve Imams. --Enzuru 23:36, 18 May 2008 (UTC)

I would like to thank you. It means a lot to me that you care about my opinion on the matter, and even more that you consider me impartial. I worry, however, that it is not entirely so, because as a Baha'i I do ascribe to the Shia mode of thought and believe that Ali was Muhammad's legitimate successor. Still, I shall do my best to set my personal beliefs in the matter aside and focus on the encyclopedic nature of the template. Peter Deer (talk) 01:10, 19 May 2008 (UTC)
Anytime, you're a wonderful member. And on a personal note, I've researched the Baha'i Faith alot and read parts of its scriptures. I used to be especially interested in the Azali. --Enzuru 02:15, 19 May 2008 (UTC)
I have been of the opinion that the Azali movement will see somewhat of a rise in later years because of the Bab's fairly clear appointment of Subh-i-Azal as leader of the Babi movement until the arrival of Him Whom God will make Manifest, and also because of persons who are predisposed against following the mainstream of any movement.
From my investigation I find his later claims to be preposterous and his actions to have been nigh-unspeakably treacherous, but I can see the reasoning by which people might assume his authority. Quite frankly, he seems historically to parallel Abu Bakr in many regards, with the exception that he wasn't successful and that he later claimed a loftier station.
Suffice it to say, I became a Baha'i for a reason. Peter Deer (talk) 04:08, 19 May 2008 (UTC)
I agree exactly, the Azali will become popular because of some historical evidence and people who can't stand being mainstream, it's a very insightful view on your part. One thing I noticed with reading into the Baha'i Faith, especially with individuals such as Juan Cole, is a general dissatisfaction with how the mainstream faith is run. If you don't mind me asking (especially on Wikipedia, it's understandable if you don't want to voice your opinion on this), what do you feel? Such as the texts chosen to translate and not to translate (for example, the writings of the Bab which get rather militant). I mean, I feel discomforted personally when we Shi'a choose to translate tafsir and fatwas over actual sources of hadith. But, I know we need to because we'll have neo-Akhbari groups in Shi'asm, that do not maturely use sources that almost all scholars today agree are simply not accurate. --Enzuru 18:31, 19 May 2008 (UTC)

Insofar as translations goes, it is quite true much of the writings of the Babi dispensation differ greatly from the writings of Baha'u'llah, but it bears noting that the Baha'i dispensation abrogated the vast majority of those laws (specific ones are generally referred to in the Kitab-i-Aqdas) and even the Bab Himself considered His dispensation and His laws to be beneath those of Baha'u'llah.

"For all that hath been exalted in the Bayan is but as a ring upon My hand, and I Myself am, verily, but a ring upon the hand of Him Whom God shall make manifest -- glorified be His mention!" (The Bab, Selections from the Writings of the Bab, p. 168)

I think generally the majority of concerns regarding the Baha'i Administration come from people who are upset that the Universal House of Justice does not abrogate laws laid down by Baha'u'llah, Abdu'l-Baha, or Shoghi Effendi, specifically the laws outlining that the members of the House be men and that homosexual relationships are forbidden, not taking into account that the House does not have the authority to abrogate the Law of Baha'u'llah. I'm sure there are others who have other objections and concerns, but those are the more controversial ones.
Another reason why many things have not been translated is the translation of Baha'i scripture is a very careful and meticulous process. By my understanding, it is seen to be preferable not to present the religious texts than to misrepresent them and pervert their true meanings. As Shoghi Effendi was the authorized interpreter of Baha'i scripture, his translations are used as models for future translations, both in their interpretations and in their presentation.
The Bab's work is being translated, but slowly, partially because of the meticulous translation process, and partially because of the meticulous authentication process. Much of the work of the Bab was dictated rather than written in His hand, so much work has to be done to make sure that the source is authentic, as Covenant-Breakers and hostile Muslim authorities have made attempts to pass off things as being written by the Bab before. Most of the authenticated and translated works have been compiled into Selections from the Writings of the Bab.
In conclusion, I have confidence in the good faith of the institutions who are translating the holy scripture. The primary objective so far seems to have been the complete, faithful, and accurate translation of the works of Baha'u'llah and Abdu'l-Baha, as they pertain directly to the laws and ordinances of the Baha'i dispensation. The Persian believers, however, do have the benefit of access to the Bab's writings in their original form and, largely because of the persecution of Baha'is in Iran, are now spreading and disseminating throughout the western world and bringing those teachings and modes of thought with them. And no, I do not mind talking about it outside of an article, in fact I enjoy talking with Muslims in particular because they are often more familiar with certain concepts pertinent to the Baha'i faith than I am (ask most Americans what Mahdi means, or who Husayn Ibn Ali is, or what the Qiblih/Qibla is, and they'll just stare at you) and frankly it's a privilege to speak with a Shia Muslim as, sadly, almost all of the few western Muslims are Sunnis. So I welcome your questions and even your opinions and commentary, as I am also personally interested in what the sane Muslims who aren't trying to kill us think of us. Peter Deer (talk) 21:31, 19 May 2008 (UTC)

Understandable views, very interesting. As far as background on myself, I was born into a Sunni Muslim family, and I later reverted to Shi'a Islam. I was at one point very interested in heretical groups (and if they were the truth), so much of the Ismailism article can be attributed to me. Fortunately, through God's guidance I settled on orthodox Shi'a opinion. I won't lie, I do taqleed under Sayed Khamenei. My stance towards the Baha'i Faith is that, I understand why Iran is xenophobic about it, and in some instances it is more of a cultural stance than a religious one. However, I cannot condone the way the Baha'i are being treated, though I believe the persecution of Baha'i in Iran has been grossly exaggerated, however facts such as them not being able to attend higher education is almost verifiable. I understand why in Pakistan they went out of their way to label the Ahmadi negatively: the issue was that they were parading under the banner of orthodox Islam and taking advantage of illiterate or uneducated. The labeling of non-Muslim to them was very well an issue of self-defense, however, I don't condone the killing or burning of their mosques.
So, what do I think of the Baha'i Faith? It comes in two parts: why I am not Baha'i and my view of those who are. Well, I do not accept it because after reading its texts, and Bahaullah's own arguments, I cannot see how its metaphorical claims differ from Mirza Ghulam Ahmad nor any other claimant of the title (please feel free to respond to this, I know we can have a friendly conversation). Bahaullah for example says it would be ridiculous for us to wait for a lamb to sit with a wolf, and that is metaphorical. That is true, however, in many circles from what I understand it has long been understood to be metaphorical. Textual literalism may be even more recent, especially within Evangelistic currents. Same goes for Shi'a Islam. The Imam al-Mahdi (AS) will not literally break crosses, he will rather rise over Christianity. As for the Baha'i themselves, I quote Imam Ali (AS), "Whoever is not your brother in faith is your brother in humanity."
I suppose you have other questions towards me, like my opinions or understanding of certain Baha'i beliefs. I'd love to explore that with you. --Enzuru 23:05, 19 May 2008 (UTC)
I am interested in how you think that the persecution of Baha'is has been exaggerated. And do not worry about offending me, you are speaking honestly of your perceptions and I would be disobedient to God if I judged you for that.
I see you have been reading the Kitab-i-Iqan. Truly a marvelous book. I think you would also find "Some Answered Questions" to be of interest, particularly Abdu'l-Baha's explanation of the eleventh chapter of the Book of Revelation and how it pertains to the Umayyad dynasty.
Now as you are probably aware, we consider the occultation to have been a pious fraud for the noble intent of preserving the unity of the religion, but that the Bab was, in fact, the hidden Imam Al-Mahdi.
(Also, do forgive me if I do not use appellatives, such as SAWS, PBUH, AS, and so forth. I mean it not as a sign of disrespect to God or His loved ones, or to persons who choose to use the terms)
But I am indeed quite interested in your opinions regarding the Baha'is. You seem to have read the Iqan (or part of it at least) and you seem to be firm enough in your faith that you are willing to subject it to tests, and you have been courteous and respectful of my faith despite not believing. I am quite interested in your impressions and frankly your questions and concerns regarding Baha'u'llah's claims, if you don't mind sharing. I certainly am no hafez, and I do not have the works of Baha'u'llah memorized either, but I will do the best I can and look up things where necessarily. Peter Deer (talk) 00:10, 20 May 2008 (UTC)
Please don't take what I say to be cruel or horrid in any way, I don't wish to hurt your feelings. In regards to the exaggeration, we have the death tolls for example. I believe it's been around two hundred in a span of thirty years, and this is Baha'i who could have been executed for reasons other than their faith. Way more than this amount was done in a single year in the execution of dangerous political prisoners in Iran. Yet, on a year-to-year basis, 200 divided by 30 leaves us with 7 deaths a year or so. Every human life is precious, but I cannot wrap my head around this as some massive persecution. More Shi'a (much beyond the proper ratio) have been executed in Iran than Baha'i during this timespan. I think most of the persecution will come from average citizens and their biases towards the faith than the government itself, with the exception of religious recognition and higher education.
I have actually read parts of "Some Answered Questions" and I double checked it right now. Abdul'Baha's view is actually parallel to a Christian view that the Book of Revelations was actually the foretelling of events in the Roman Empire. “And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified.” This verse, I think to most people, would be much closer to Rome than to the Ummayads, though I dislike the Ummayads much more. Egypt ruled over the Jews, as Rome ruled over the Jews, and the Romans engaged in homosexuality under Geek influence. But, to argue over interpretation could go on forever, it's pointless and meaningless what we say.
So, as for your final question about Bahaullah, I believe the burden of evidence is upon you, less so than me, just as the burden of evidence is for me to disprove Christianity, not for me to ask a Christian to disprove Islam. Now, what avenue can I actually go into this debate with? My hadith are suddenly metaphorical, and my sources may be valid or invalid according to you. Tell me, what common ground do we have to debate? --Enzuru 00:41, 20 May 2008 (UTC)
Your numbers are accurate. 206 Baha'is, to be precise, including Baha'is who died in prison. their names and the dates, locations, and causes of death can be found here; you will notice that the majority of them were executed. Certainly the death tolls under the Islamic Republic cannot be compared to the tens of thousands of Babis and Baha'is massacred during the Qajar and Pahlavi dynasties. And you are absolutely correct that the numbers of political prisoners killed in Iran are greater numerically (not counting of course the Baha'is who have been executed on charges of being 'zionist spies')
But a few things that should be considered instead of the death toll. The small number of Baha'is in Iran are (in far greater percentages than any other religious group) being arrested, tortured, killed, deprived of education, their homes burned, their jobs taken away, baha'i children abused by teachers, expelled from schools, and/or slandered in front of their classmates. Baha'i holy places are destroyed, Baha'i cemetaries bulldozed so that families will not even know the resting place of their loved ones. Because Baha'i marriages are not recognized Baha'i men are arrested as lechers and Baha'i women as prostitutes.
These things are temporary and shall pass away. I am certain that just as the persecutions of Christ and Muhammad and Moses that these persecutions shall strengthen and exalt the faith and that those martyred in the name of the faith shall be rewarded by God.
But what truly is an abomination is that these atrocities are committed in the name of Islam! Baha'is are called 'apostates' though if asked any Baha'i will willingly testify "There is no god but God and Muhammad is His Messenger" and while on one hand calling Baha'is a perverse heretical sect they are on the other hand called a zionist political movement, not a religion, thus circumventing the law of the Quran in Sura 2:256.
I am an American, and here in America there is a great deal of hatred towards Islam, from Christians, atheists, and racists (who think all Muslims are Arabs). When I argue to them that Islam is a religion of peace, a beautiful divine religion, they point out to me the violent actions of some so-called Muslims, usually referring to terrorism, as their argument. They remain completely ignorant of the violence committed towards Baha'is, however.
I have in, two separate conversations, been called a zionist pagan by a Muslim for teaching the Baha'i faith and in the same day been told to "go back to your mulla paymasters in tehran" when I was defending Islam in an argument against what I suspect to have been a Zoroastrian. Not too long ago I was accused of being a Muslim and when I denied it I was met with the reply "I think you're a Muslim, you defend them way to much, you even defend the evil acts their pedophile profit committed. Islam is a religion of hate not peace."1 Muslims call me an infidel, infidels call me a Muslim.
On the corpses of Baha'is who have been murdered it is often written "enemy of Islam." I find the irony of it so confounding and maddening that I can scarcely find words for it.
But I'm sorry, I've gone off on a bit of a tangent there.
You ask about common ground upon which we can debate. I figure I should let you set the terms for the most part. Tell me, how and why did you come to follow Islam?
I am afraid if you want to talk Hadith I only currently have Hadith Qudsi and volumes 1-9 of Bukhari at my disposal. Quite frankly most of my knowledge of Islam comes from the Quran, I'm not really very studied in Hadith. I was raised agnostic, became atheist out of hatred for religion and zealots, and then ironically the Baha'i faith won me over to all the religions I had despised before out of ignorance and prejudice. I was so skeptical of religion but the evidences provided (usually compiled very nicely by a Mr. William Sears, one of the foremost Baha'i theologians and authors) was too convincing for me to reasonably ignore (I honestly tried.)
So I suppose I'm lucky, because if it weren't for that I would have been deprived of the teachings of God and would have continued on being a nihilist hedonist atheist.
But I suppose you have your own story, if you're willing to share with me. Peter Deer (talk) 03:52, 20 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] websites

FYI, H-Bahai is a quasi-academic site made by Juan Cole, who was removed from the Baha'i community after he tried to influence elections. The website hosts a lot of content that is critical of the administration, and the user pressing for its inclusion is trying to bring prominence to negative information on the Faith. Cuñado ☼ - Talk 16:49, 20 May 2008 (UTC)

I was unaware of that in particular. Thank you for bringing that to my attention. Peter Deer (talk) 17:24, 20 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] May 2008

Peter, my father was killed while on a business trip to New York on September 11, 2001. He was killed in the name of Islam. He was considered an infidel for what he believed and for what his country stood for. I have no tolerance for Islam and I now consider it evil. Judging by history, I think my opinions are more fact than fiction.--Lord Ferdinand (talk) 14:25, 19 May 2008 (UTC)

My apologies for not replying earlier, I did not see your comment. When you reply I have moved your comment to the bottom of the page (chronologically earlier comments are towards the top, newer ones are towards the bottom) so if you want to reply please post there.
May God watch over your father's spirit, and may He comfort you in his absence.
I shall address first your claims against Islam. If I killed and said it was in your name, would that make you evil? Let me elaborate further upon that, if you said "do not kill someone in my name" and I did anyway, would that be your sin, and the sin of your friends and family who care for and love you?
You have pronounced judgement against Islam based upon this logic. Now be honest: have you read the Quran? Or have you instead bitten into a rotten apple and now say all apples are horrible? If you were to read the Quran, the Book which defines the law of Islam, you would find quite clearly that it forbids murder, killing women children the elderly and unarmed and innocent bystanders in warfare, attacking when not attacked, and very clearly forbids compulsion in religion of any sort.
History only shows that people have disobeyed these laws, it does not show that Islam is evil but rather that those who have strayed from it have committed evil acts.
You have no tolerance for Islam and consider it evil because some who called themselves Muslims had no tolerance for Americans and considered us evil. Is this not just adding more hatred and intolerance to the world? Is this not, rather than meeting evil with a greater good, magnifying it with a similar evil?
But regardless of all these things, even if what I have said has no meaning to you, you still need to consider that this is Wikipedia and that your personal grievances with ones who call themselves Muslims should not be the motivation behind your edits. Edits on wikipedia are supposed to be from a neutral point of view, with accurate and verifiable sources and no personal assertions or original research.
It doesn't matter whether you are for or against Islam, your feelings (correction: our feelings) on the matter are irrelevant, Wikipedia is an encyclopedia not a personal blog, and thus should only contain cited, sourced, verifiable information not written by us. Peter Deer (talk) 23:55, 20 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Speedy deletion of Template:uw-vand5

A tag has been placed on Template:Uw-vand5, requesting that it be speedily deleted from Wikipedia. This has been done because the article appears to be a repost of material that was previously deleted following a deletion debate, such as articles for deletion. If you can indicate how Template:Uw-vand5 is different from the previously posted material, or if you can indicate why this article should not be deleted, I advise you to place the template {{hangon}} underneath the other template on the article, and also put a note on Talk:Template:Uw-vand5 saying why this article should stay. An admin should check for such edits before deleting the article. Feel free to leave a note on my talk page if you have any questions about this. Please read our criteria for speedy deletion, particularly item 4 under General criteria. If you believe the original discussion was unjustified, please feel free to use deletion review, but do not continue to repost the article if it is deleted. Please do not remove the speedy deletion tag yourself. We welcome your help in trying to improve Wikipedia, and we request you to follow these instructions. Anomie⚔ 11:44, 22 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] The Qu'ran

You reverted an edit of mine @ the Critique section of Qu'ran without taking the time of explaining why. I reverted the edit, because I believe it makes the article more NPOV. Should you decide to revert again, please show the common courtesy of explaining if what policy of Wiki you believe my phrasing violates. Rastapopoulos (talk) 12:35, 24 May 2008 (UTC)

As you see, I started the discussion here. It is you who took it over @ my talk page, only to criticise me for answering to you there. How bizarre. Rastapopoulos (talk) 12:06, 26 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Comment by Chisty2

excuse em peter sorry but some of the some where wrong no false accustion but to me I also know muslim and I read quran jihad is not fighting in one term or robbing sorry it actually means peace for religion if u dont mind. Sorry and please can edit little bit around because people think false on muslim —Preceding unsigned comment added by Chisty2 (talk • contribs) 01:53, 26 May 2008 (UTC)

It is alright that you feel that there is some inaccuracies in the viewpoints expressed there. I sympathize entirely, I am quite familiar with the true nature of Jihad, and how it relates to a person's individual struggle against evil in their own hearts. I am also familiar with the terminology regarding the defense of an Islamic nation against aggression, and the laws of Islam prohibiting attacking or committing atrocities in war.
But regardless of this others have had (what I believe to be incorrect) interpretations of Jihad which they use as justification for violence. It is a notable and sadly a fairly widespread usage in this day and age. While it may not be a correct interpretation it is an interpretation notable enough to be commented upon and displayed in an encyclopedia without bias for or against it.
Also, I hope you will not find me rude in asking this, but is English your first language? If there are edits you would like to make I would not mind copyediting them for you to make them more suitable for the English wikipedia. Feel free to ask, I always like to help whenever I can. Peter Deer (talk) 03:04, 26 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Mavaadat

Of course he's got an axe to grind. You can tell from a mile away. Most of those disaffected folks rely on proof by assertion and appeals to emotion but really can't stand up to inconvenient facts. You're absolutely right: he's got to fit policy with his edits. MARussellPESE (talk) 01:33, 30 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Ahl_al-Bayt

Ahl_al-Bayt

I was contemplating deleting all uncited material, what do you say to you doing it instead? ;) Beam 02:23, 31 May 2008 (UTC)

I'm gonna mark it all up first, give it a little bit, and try and look up a few easy-to-find resources first (encyclopedia of Iran, Britannica, etc.) and then delete anything even remotely dubious. Peter Deer (talk) 05:16, 31 May 2008 (UTC)
Hi, thanks for your comment. Unfortunately I'm too busy now. Please ask Enzuru to help you.--Seyyed(t-c) 08:25, 31 May 2008 (UTC)

Hi Peter. I'd be happy to help out with regards to improving the template and the article itself. I'll have a closer look at the article soon. Regards, ITAQALLAH 15:17, 31 May 2008 (UTC)

Can you explain the recent addition in 'See also' of 'Desposyni'? Thanks. Doug Weller (talk) 06:49, 5 June 2008 (UTC)

[edit] caps for institutions

I can see some of what you are saying but it's a gray zone - an "assembly" or a church or a temple yes but consider a House of Worship? It makes little sense to speak of a "house of worship", no? A "local spiritual assembly" seems like an phrase of adjectives - an assembly or group of folks that is local and spiritual - as opposed to an institution defined by specific rules (elected, etc.) One speaks of Boards and boards.... hmmm... Operationally these are approximately or literally translations of proper nouns which would be capped, no? We refer to States or states but they aren't the same thing exactly - the first connotes the members of the United States whereas the second is a organizational unity between city and nation on par with provinces or similar. A university in general but any official University perse?? Hmmm. I guess there will have to raise a consensus at some point....--Smkolins (talk) 22:04, 31 May 2008 (UTC)

Hmm. Well insofar as that is concerned specifically a Baha'i house of worship would be a Mashriqu'l-Adhkár in Arabic, but I'm not sure in that regard as the Manual of Style doesn't cover whether things like Church, Mosque, Synagogue etc. should be capitalized or not (so far as I can see). Perhaps asking for that specification in the talk page of the MOS is in order? Peter Deer (talk) 22:48, 31 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Sorry

I'll help you with this and also shoot you that long overdue e-mail in a bit. Some things have come up. --Enzuru 19:19, 2 June 2008 (UTC)

There is nothing to forgive, my friend. Take as long as you need, Wikipedia will be here when you get back :) Peter Deer (talk) 19:58, 2 June 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Shia Islam

Im really confused because the passage says that the Sunnis follow the descendants of the Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) then it says, Shia Imams it doesn't really make any sense. Plus it is not true of what we Sunni Muslims believe, the source is from a book - such a claim! to be used on Wikipedia. Assalamu Alaykum!

Wa Alaikum As-Salaam.
The way you stated the sentence was (in abridged form) "Sunnis, unlike shias, follow Shia Imams." I reverted it to state that Shias follow Shia imams. My apologies if the warning template was a bit of a cold response, it was not intended as such but was out of inconsideration on my part, for which I am quite sorry. Peter Deer (talk) 22:51, 3 June 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Twelver template

What do you think of this modeling of the Twelver template: Template:Twelvers2 --Enzuru 01:07, 4 June 2008 (UTC)

I feel that while an article with lots of generic information like Template:Islam might be like Template:Buddhism, an article with information that has lots of specifics should be more like Template:Judaism. What do you think? --Enzuru 22:32, 4 June 2008 (UTC)
I think you have a better idea of the direction we should go in than me. What do you think overall we should do? In detail as well. --Enzuru 08:58, 5 June 2008 (UTC)
I did an update and condensed it. Tell me what you think: Template:Twelvers. We can revert it if there are issues. --Enzuru 04:08, 6 June 2008 (UTC)
There is some controversy about it. We need your opinion: [1] --Enzuru 19:13, 6 June 2008 (UTC)
Yeah, I'm pretty anti-piracy myself, except in some situations. I was even more hardcore when I was younger. Anyway, you should adopt more opensource software. Get the GIMP. --Enzuru 19:46, 6 June 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Re:

Hi Peter,

Sorry for getting back to you late. I am very busy in real life and am staying away from wikipedia for some time.

Hope things are going well with you.

--Be happy!! (talk) 19:33, 4 June 2008 (UTC)

[edit] WikiProjectIslam Collaboration

Salam bro,

Don't you want to participate in Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Islam#Collaboration. Please participate in collaborative improvement of Sources of Islamic law, which is nominated as GA.--Seyyed(t-c) 09:55, 5 June 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Syncretism

Hi everyone and thanks for keeping it together.

Judaism had a tough time, show some respect. Christianity had a tough time, show some respect. Islam had a tough time, show some respect. We should all peacefully join together and celebrate syncretism so that we can live in peace, lets celebrate syncretism. Phalanx Pursos 22:25, 9 June 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Re: Jesus in Islam

Hi Peter. Regarding this edit, just so you know the citation is available at the end of the next sentence (namely, the Encyclopedia of Islam). As far as I know, all of the content in the article is verified, as I tried to make sure of this in preparation for its GA nomination. Regards, ITAQALLAH 23:47, 9 June 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Ahl al-Bayt

Hi, There is some disagreements between me and Itaqallah. In this case like every other case we have different views based on different sources. I think we are not here to write all of them but we should emphasize on the most important ones. Thus I reverted some parts of Itaqallah's edition and put a comment on the talk page. Please write your idea there.--Seyyed(t-c) 02:46, 10 June 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Setting the foundations for future Islamic articles

Join us here: User talk:Enzuru/ConstitutionIslam --Enzuru 00:39, 11 June 2008 (UTC)