Talk:Petrushka chord

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[edit] Original research?

  1. Many books describe the Petrushka chord as being simultaneous.
    Pogue, David (1997). Classical Music for Dummies, p.80. ISBN 0764550098: "Stravinsky delibaretly wrote two simultaneous harmonies that clashed horribly with each other...This clash, however, has a purpose: It represents a musical nose-thumbing on the part of the puppet." NOTE: This source gives the lower F# major chord in first inversion.
  2. As far as I know the octatonic derivation is not proven. I believe he used the scale in later music, not earlier music.
  3. A voicing is given along with an image which is not taken from the music. Did Stravinsky use this voicing exclusively in Petrushka?
  4. The article says the chord is used "constantly throughout the ballet Petrushka to herald the arrival of the protagonist onstage" yet
    "[Stravinsky] later wrote that he had devised the juxtaposition of triads in C major and F sharp major that permeates the score as a means of representing Petruskha's insults to the audience at the Shrovetide fair". Libbey, Ted (1999). The NPR Guide to Building a Classical CD Collection: The 350 Essential Works, p.185. ISBN 0761104879.
  5. I am unsure how two unison clarinets could play the two arpeggios.

Hyacinth 10:50, 12 February 2006 (UTC)

I wouldn't call it 'original research' per se, because most of the content was extracted from past related articles, notes from a class on contemporary music, and the textbook. I did goof on including bibliography, and I'll work on that.
  • I'm going to argue on Point 2, but I will investigate it further.
  • Regarding Point 3, I state repeatedly that the image and voicing are meant as abstractions of the concept instead of snippets from the score. Though this is partially due to the desire to simplify to its most basic components, it's also a fear of possibly violating copyright if I used a Stravinsky score.
  • The line cited in Point 4 was extracted from the article on Petrushka, so that was not my error. You are welcome to change it.
  • Point 5 was just dumbness on my part. I was looking for a word and used a completely inappropriate one instead.
Until Wikipedia can start paying me salary, I have more pressing work to complete. :) I will make an effort soon. Spamguy 01:19, 14 February 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Follow up

The Petrouchka Chord, in all any aspect is always an F# Major chord over a C Major chord. While Stravinsky stuck to the voicing shown in the example on the page almost entirely throughout Petrouchka, he also varied it in a few senses.

  • In the second part, Rehearsal number 99 if you have the score, and when the piano plays the solo 32nd notes, the piano is alternating an F# Major chord and a G Major chord in the first beat, and then and then an F# major chord and a C Major chord. In the third bar of rehearsal 99, the piano begins 10 32nd notes per beat, and alternates the follwing notes: F#-A#-D-G-G-C#-D#-C-F-B. You can't really classify this section in chords; it is much easier to classify it as two scales, a tritone apart, sounding simultaneously. Thus, I agree with point one to an extent. These scales sound together simultaneously, yet they are played in different inversions in many different occasions. So to say that the Petrouchka chord is a C Major chord on top of an F# Major chord in first inversion is false.
  • I do disagree with the writer on point two. As far as I know there is no evidence that Stravinsky decided on these particular chord because they form nearly an entire octatonic scale, and if the writer of this article cannot provide evidence for that claim, it should be removed. It is my opinion that Stravinsky used C Major and F# Major simply because they were a tritone apart. However, I would not enter that either because I have no evidence that that is the reason.
  • As far as point three goes, this is heard frequently throughout the ballet, and is most frequently quoted when discussing the Petrouchka chord because it explains the function of the chords quiet nicely. It is seen in the music between two clarinets at rehearsal 95, "Doppio valore", between the clarinets again at rehearsal 118, and between the trumpets at the very end of the ballet, two measures before rehearsal 267. I would side with the writer of this article on point three.
  • Point four has been resolved and point five is simply a mix up of words.

As opposed to coming onto the talk page and attempting to embarrass the writer of the article with these points, and pointing out obvious mistakes he made, why don't you just be bold and fix them? As opposed to this stuff, you could have mentioned in the article that this chord has been used many, many times in modern music, namely as the final chord to "West Side Story", a C major chord in all of the upper voices with the basses playing an F#, implying this chord. I am removing the original research tag since what the writer has written is an accurate description of the Petrouchak chord. Kntrabssi 18:33, 22 March 2006 (UTC)

Why do you come on this page and point out that I may be mistaken to have gone on this page and point out another's mistakes? The article still has problems. For instance, the chord is defined as bitonal while many theorists believe bitonality an impossibility. Hyacinth (talk) 18:38, 9 January 2008 (UTC)