Talk:Petra (band)

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Petra (band) is a former featured article candidate. Please view the links under Article milestones below to see why the nomination failed. For older candidates, please check the archive.

	Article milestones

Date

Process

Result

August 20, 2006

Featured article candidate

Not promoted

September 27, 2006

Featured article candidate

Not promoted

May 3, 2007

Good article nominee

Not listed

Current Status: Former featured article candidate

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[edit] older entries

There's an NPOV flag, but no accompanying discussion, so I'm clearing the flag.

What????? I wanted to say how I thought it was sad that NO-ONE had put any articles about the albums.

I've been working with this article for awhile, so let's see if I can work with those later. Thief12 01:48, 5 July 2006 (UTC)

Ok, I've finished working with the whole discography and I threw in an additional page for the Beyond Belief mini-movie to boot. Thief12 00:48, 8 July 2006 (UTC)

Good job! I did a few too.24.64.223.203 01:10, 10 July 2006 (UTC)HappyBoy

In regard to the grammar, we need to avoid opinion words. No doubt (no pun, intended) Petra was a great band but the article should contain facts only. Also, the text refers to Petra sometimes as "they" and sometimes as "it." It should be one or the other, not both. I'd love to see this become a featured article. Wordbuilder 20:26, 20 September 2006 (UTC)

I'll vote for "it." Petra is a band, a singular entity. If a sentence talks about the band members, then "they" is appropriate. Kirkman 23:25, 20 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Tribute Album

Not sure where it would fit but I came to this article to look for info about a tribute album. I believe it was called "Never say Dinosaur" or something like that and from memory it had a picture of a brown Tyranasarus type dinosaur on it surrounded by artist who were playing the Petra songs on the CD. That's about all I can recall, it would be good is someone added info to the article. - Waza 06:54, 18 July 2006 (UTC)

Yeah, I've heard that album (pretty good, BTW) I was thinking about adding something somewhere. Perhaps an additional section with that and other tributes to the band. I'll see how to work it out. Thief12 18:53, 18 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Re: "New Millennium"

Just a few things... When I have more time I might rewrite these myself:

The paragraph that says "In 2001 the band was signed to Inpop Records. Trying to pick up somewhere, guitarist and founder Hartman decided to re-join the band" is a bit misleading As the article states higher up, Hartman had retired from touring, but continued to play guitar, write, and produce for every album. So Hartman didn't "rejoin" the band. What happened is that Inpop decided to add Hartman back to the marketing, even though he wouldn't be joining the tour as guitarist. Quinton Gibson was the touring guitarist. So Hartman's picture appeared on the album and Inpop talked about the "core" of Petra being him, Schlitt, and Louie. But the truth is that very little was different from before. It was just a marketing gimmick.

"long-time drummer Louie Weaver was fired amidst lots of rumours and controversy. However, the band dissipated all rumours and geared up for their next album." This is also a bit misleading. The band did NOT dissipate all rumors. In fact, they refused to address rumors regarding the reason behind Louie's firing. I think this graf should be rewritten to reflect that initially the band's statement made it sound like Louie and the band had parted amicably. But Louie came out later and said explicity that he was fired by Schlitt and manager Wayne Seboa. Hartman responded to that (in an interview with me) saying that it was Schlitt alone who made the decision, in consultation with his pastor and with Hartman.

Yeah, I think it's all about semantics. I believe I can rewrite those paragraph or let you work it out. Whatever you feel like. Thief12 21:16, 12 July 2006 (UTC)

I rewrote those two paragraphs. Check it out. Anyway, I don't know if we should reserve the details about Weaver's firing to his bio article and just mention it here. Thief12 21:37, 12 July 2006 (UTC)

I did a pretty significant rewrite of the section. It's longer than it was before, but I think all the details are pretty good. Let me know. Kirkman 06:14, 25 July 2006 (UTC)

About the 2004 J&H tour, it's probably worth mentioning some of the highlights, like the reunion concert in Angola and Petra's first trip to India where they had huge crowds (i read estimates of around 20,000, IRC) Kirkman 17:47, 12 July 2006 (UTC)

I tried to start something about the concert in Angola, Indiana in those last paragraphs, but I know it's too little. Perhaps we can work it out from there. I also put something about it on the articles about some of the band members involved in the concert (Hartman, Hough, DeGroff, Glover, Simmons, Bailey, etc.) About the trips to India, I think you have more info about that than I do. Thanks for your help, Josh. Thief12 21:16, 12 July 2006 (UTC)

Ok, I just checked the "Trivia" section and I had put there an item about the concert in Angola. However, as I just said, perhaps that can be worked out into the article perse. Thief12 21:23, 12 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Final concert

We should probably end the "Farewell" section with a reference to Petra's final concert. I know there was some dispute about it because, if I remember right, the "final" concert of the official tour was to be New Year's Eve/Day, but another concert was booked to take place the day after, which was not technically part of the Farewell Tour (so the promoter of the earlier concert could promote it as "the final" concert). Anyway, if someone can pin those dates down and work it up, we should add that. Kirkman 17:55, 12 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] InfoBox

How does everyone like the infobox i made? I got the genres from Petra's myspace. If anyone has any questions or comments just let me know on here. I'm also known as ggj7205 to Josh Renaud, if he wants to say hi to me.--24.64.223.203 22:48, 23 July 2006 (UTC)HappyBoy

Hey man, it's me, Josh. I like the box. One question... in similar boxes for other bands, do they list only the final members of the band? Kirkman 03:04, 24 July 2006 (UTC)

Well, Josh, usually they say "Current members" and "past members" but since Petra had so many members, everyone figured to put them all in a section below the page. I tried to put all past members in the infobox one time, but it didn't turn out well. But I guess all members now are past members eh? Haha.24.64.223.203 22:20, 24 July 2006 (UTC)HappyBoy

[edit] Featured Article Candidate

For anyone interested, I nominated this article to be a "Featured Article", but it needs the support from Wikipedians. If you want to vote for it, go here, read the procedure, and support the nomination. Thanks. Thief12 01:58, 16 August 2006 (UTC)

I read some of the comments the others made on the nomination. There were some good points but I disagree with the one who said fan sites are not good sources. Some fan sites (including mine) have done in-depth, on-the-record interviews with key band members. I don't know how you can have a better source than Bob Hartman himself or John Schlitt. Kirkman 18:09, 26 September 2006 (UTC)

I'm trying to add more citations. There are lots of good newspaper articles at johnschlitt.net and elswhere. BTW - the Echoes newspaper citation I added today is incomplete, but I'm hoping to get the rest of the details later this evening. Kirkman 18:20, 27 September 2006 (UTC)

Thanks, Josh. I just finished polishing some paragraphs and other stuff here and there. I really appreciate your help. Thief12 19:31, 28 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Petra and backmasking

Let's talk about backmasing. Petra has an obvious backwards message before "Judas Kiss." However there is also backmasking within the song "Witch Hunt." It is clearly audible if you play the song in reverse... It's a series of clips from the Wizard of Oz just like the ones you hear when the song plays forwards. The subject matter of the song makes it an obvious place for the band to include such backmasking.

I bring this up because somebody tried to add a note about Petra's backmasking without including a reference to Witch Hunt. Then someone over-rode my edit which included such a reference. If we're going to mention backmasking, we should note BOTH of Petra's uses of it. Kirkman 01:56, 5 November 2006 (UTC)

Josh, I went back to listen to "Witch Hunt" to confirm your observations and couldn't catch it. I heard lots of samples from "Oz" but no backmasking. Can you provide me with a timestamp on that particular track where the backmasking begins so I can hear for myself? In the meantime, I plan to relisten to it with headphones on max. ;-) BTW, you make some good arguments regarding the subject matter of the song and its relation to the backmasking you say is there. Anyhoo, please don't revert to your old edit, as I added some stuff about the "Judas' Kiss" backmasking that should stay. Just edit my edit. --Mike Beidler 14:23, 5 November 2006 (UTC)

Okay, if you are playing the song backwards, listen from 2:10. During the next 10-15 seconds, you'll hear three crystal-clear messages. In order: "We'll look everywhere till we find that old witch"; "How about a little fire scarecrow?"; and "Hey everybody, we're gonna have us a witch hunt!" Kirkman 19:53, 5 November 2006 (UTC)

Another thought on this. Rather than treat this as a point of trivia, maybe we should mold this part of the article into a paragraph or two on Petra's response to the backmasking controversy raised by various outspoken preachers. We could frame it like this: The preachers were accusing various rock bands of satanic backwards messages, which led to many Christians playing records backwards, seeking to uncover more. Petra's response was to record the words "What are you looking for the devil for, when you oughta be looking for the Lord?" backwards at the beginning of "Judas Kiss." They later wrote a song, "Witch Hunt," with lyrics lampooning these pointless crusades. "Witch Hunt" contained several backwards messages within it. Kirkman 20:02, 5 November 2006 (UTC)

I re-wrote Mike's most recent version of this section. Personally, I think this section would make more sense as part of the main article. It seems like much more than trivia to me. I think it would work very well as part of a section about Petra's trouble with anti-rock preachers and tele-evangelists. Kirkman 04:27, 8 November 2006 (UTC)

I noticed Perfect World has backmasking.--HappyBoy 22:46, 10 November 2006 (UTC)

Huh, I didn't know that. Can you give some details on the time in the song where the backmasking occurs? 207.119.221.4 17:35, 12 November 2006 (UTC)

In the intro to the song, and at some point just after the first chorus. There's probably another time somewhere. Anyway, play it backwards, you get some sort of guitar riff.--HappyBoy 23:40, 17 November 2006 (UTC)HappyBoy

[edit] II guys from petra

I believe II guys from petra should probably have its own wikipedia page, and mention of the project in the petra article kept brief. What do you all think? Kirkman 04:11, 12 March 2007 (UTC)

I'll look into it in a week or two. Dan, the CowMan 02:52, 30 March 2007 (UTC)

There's already an article about the album (see Vertical Expressions) that I created some time ago, but I don't know if an article of II Guys from Petra per se is warranted yet. Thief12 16:15, 25 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Possible GA candidate

I think it would be a good idea if someone that has the time could nominate this for Good Article Status. It already underwent FA nomination twice, so should be able to get the GA nod. I do not contribute to this article regularly and would be a poor choice for making the requested edits for the GA review, but perhaps one of the main contributors could. Good luck. - cgilbert^{(talk|contribs)} 15:03, 30 March 2007 (UTC)

I agree, unless someon out there has big plans for overhauling this article, it's time to try for Good Article status. Someone responsible for the content of the article should nominate it. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Spottacus (talk • contribs) 05:21, 1 April 2007 (UTC).

I agree that it's almost there, but personally I am still not yet satisfied (with my own recent expansion). Dan, the CowMan 05:25, 1 April 2007 (UTC)

I'm the one that started the article and I think it would be a good idea, and see what recommendations we can get out of that to improve the article. Thief12 01:12, 27 April 2007 (UTC)

I just nominated the article for Good Article Status. Let's see how it works out. Thief12 01:32, 27 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Trivia section

I tagged this since trivia sections are frowned upon. I actually like trivia but the inclusion of such a section is apparently thought to weaken the article. It's not very big so it could probably be easily assimilated. I'd hate to have something so minor keep the article from advancing to the next quality rating. --Wordbuilder 15:41, 16 April 2007 (UTC)

I tried to merge most of the Trivia facts in the article. I put one in the Bob Hartman article, and I left others hidden. Thief12 01:34, 27 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] GA review

I am delisting this from the GA nominations page. While it's an admirable attempt at starting a solid article about a great band, it needs a lot of work before it can pass GA. Here are some problems:

It currently has several citation needed tags. These should be properly sourced; the article should have no cite tags as a nominee.
There are other instances of statements which are questionable and need sourcing, especially the critical reception section. This is one of the most important places where citations from reputable sources are absolutely needed - how do we know that a given album was generally well-received, or that they were criticized for their hard rock sound? Who criticized them, when, and where? Give specific reviews, or citations from published books about the band.
The article suffers from a journalistic tone throughout, and a pro-Petra writing bias that violates WP:NPOV. Much of the article will need a serious rewrite to correct this; for starters, avoid words and phrases like "classic", "what could be considered their worst point" (who considers it that, and why is their opinion taken as fact?), "claim was shut down", "to make matters worse", and the like. The reference to "decline of slick commercial rock music" sounds biased; Wikipedia does not make judgments as to what music is good or bad. Describe it musically, rather than using the normally pejorative "slick commercial".

This is just a start of the ways to start thinking about how to revamp the article for a better chance at GA status. One thing to consider is to look at some recent FA or GA band articles (such as The KLF, Gwen Stefani, Kate Bush, or Smashing Pumpkins) and try to model this entry around the writing style and layout. Instead of offering personal opinions, better to quote opinions from mainstream and/or mainstream Christian press outlets to demonstrate generally held opinions. Hope this helps put the article on more solid footing. Also, consider a visit to peer review once some more work has been done on it. Chubbles 06:21, 3 May 2007 (UTC)

Just wanted to let you know there is a motorcycle ministry based in Hayden,Idaho...called the New Life Grave Robbers...The name of this ministry came from this song...and is also based on The Book of Matthew 10...The church which they hail from is New Life Community Church...God Bless You...66.239.255.17 17:00, 24 July 2007 (UTC)

NEVER SAY DINOSAUR

OK, posted this three times, hopefully this time it sticks around. HOKUS PICK did a cover of Adonai which was left off this project (though intended for it originally) but later released on their project B-Sides. I've seen stuff on wiki without references, I hope someone out there has the info. This time I listed a few websites, one with a download & one with the track listing. Short of writing HP, don't know how to prove it. Hope it stays this time. kthxbye.

[edit] Improving the article

Hi all. I'm trying to get the article to a great state so that we can garner an FA approval. I've added the box for awards, the footer Infobox.

I guess we need more solid information on all the band members and perhaps supporting articles on Petra's videos, their Awards and recognition, etc.

Any help/ideas would be greatly appreciated. Thanks. aJCfreak yAk 13:47, 2 November 2007 (UTC)

You know you can count with me. I had plans to add citations but I see that's been worked out mostly. What else do you think it's necessary? Thief12 01:28, 3 November 2007 (UTC)

Also, I suggest working the article first to GA status before trying our hands at FA. Just my opinion :) Thief12 01:29, 3 November 2007 (UTC)

Sure! We've gotta reach GA status first... Doesn't hurt to be ambitious, does it? :D Btw, I feel that the article needs more material... I mean, this is the band that started it all (mostly). In 1989, they kickstarted the modern worship/rock praise genre... and so on and so forth. I feel the article doesn't do justice to any of this. The thing is, such information is not available in many online sources cos back in the late 80s and early 90s, the Internet was simply not there. So... we could try primary references such as Hartman's More Power To Ya book. I've read it only once in my life and I can't get my hands on it now. Any possibilities that you would have it? Also, mentions of high-profile public performances, mentions of other pioneering activities undertaken. For example, their performing in awards ceremonies... Them coming to India - I think that it's a first for a Contemporary Christian group. It's definitely a first for a Christian rock band... Actually, the only other Christian act that has set foot in India is Delirious?, if I'm not much mistaken. :) Hope this helps for now. More later. Btw, any thoughts/feedback on the footer infobox? aJCfreak yAk 17:59, 5 November 2007 (UTC)

I just "expanded" what the article says about Petra Praise 1 adding a sentence and a citation. Granted, more can be done, but it's a start. I also wrote excerpts about the band's concerts in India, with citations. Lemme know what you think. Thief12 21:50, 5 November 2007 (UTC)

I've edited that bit again - their visit to India was mentioned twice. With regard to crowds of over 20000, did you get that from their 2004 concert? Jus wonderin... And one more thingy - I noticed in our past GA nom that it was suggested we include atleast a few 30 sec clips of a few songs (Fair Use). Was thinking of any of the following - God Gave Rock and Roll To You (controversial song of that time), Killing My Old Man (again, controversial), King of Kings (shaping the modern praise genre), Beyond Belief (title track of their highest selling album), Right Place (change of sound with the line-up changes), a clip off of Double Take (showcasing the re-rendering), Send Revival (we could write about InPop's promotion for the album where they played a raw version of Revival to Industry executives and people couldn't figure out which band it was uptil the middle of the song - think I read this on Josh's site, not sure), Jekyll & Hyde (to showcase the hardness of the album), mebbe clips from the spanish albums. Of these, I think we can select a max of 3-4. Beyond that would be way too many for an article, IMO - but I don't know anything about the usage of song clips in WP. :) aJCfreak yAk 23:07, 5 November 2007 (UTC)

Check out this article. I didn't find info about how many, but it might be helpful on how to upload the music files. If it was up to me, I would settle for "God Gave R&R", "Beyond Belief", "Jekyll & Hyde", and probably a slow one ("Send Revival", "No Doubt", etc.) Let's see what anyone else says. Thief12 04:30, 6 November 2007 (UTC)

Something that I just checked... Articles like Dream Theater, Rush, and Megadeth have five sound clips. The two latter ones are already FA. Also, I think it would be able to put more clips in some of the album articles. That said, I would go with your initial hunch, but rounding it out this way: an old song (from the first two albums), one from the Greg Volz era, a praise one, "Beyond Belief", probably one from the 1995-2000 era, and one from Jekyll & Hyde. That's six, but that would be good and close to what you suggested I guess. Thief12 10:50, 6 November 2007 (UTC)

Thanks. I've been going through the links. I think the basic criterion unfulfilled by the Petra article is that too many contributors adding one sentence here and there - so it does not read much like a professional write-up. Reads more like a collection of individually cited statements. Needs comprehensive work. :( aJCfreak yAk 16:52, 6 November 2007 (UTC)

Also, how do we workaround not having two Awards sections in the article? aJCfreak yAk 18:11, 5 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Improving the lead

Hi all. I'm working on improving the lead. Currently, the lead does not offer much information of many of the achievements of Petra other than a few tenets of their long history. However, the lead should be a concise, short version of the entire article. Any help/comments would be appreciated. aJCfreak yAk 19:59, 6 November 2007 (UTC)

It still needs some work, but I tried to organize the lead in three basic parts: 1) Introduction/Origins, 2) Musical style and sound, 3) Awards and recognitions, and 4) Retirement. Let's see how it works. Thief12 04:29, 8 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Song clips

Taking off from what is discussed on one of the above threads, we're exploring the idea of adding several Petra song clips to the article. Ajcfreak made some good suggestions, but I'll sum it up here for everyone to contribute.

Ajcfreak said "...Was thinking of any of the following - "God Gave Rock and Roll To You" (controversial song of that time), "Killing My Old Man" (again, controversial), "King of Kings" (shaping the modern praise genre), "Beyond Belief" (title track of their highest selling album), "Right Place" (change of sound with the line-up changes), a clip off of "Double Take" (showcasing the re-rendering), "Send Revival" (we could write about InPop's promotion for the album where they played a raw version of Revival to Industry executives and people couldn't figure out which band it was uptil the middle of the song - think I read this on Josh's site, not sure), "Jekyll & Hyde" (to showcase the hardness of the album), mebbe clips from the spanish albums."
Thief12 said "...I would go with your initial hunch, but rounding it out this way: an old song (from the first two albums), one from the Greg Volz era, a praise one, "Beyond Belief", probably one from the 1995-2000 era, and one from Jekyll & Hyde."

What do you all think? Thief12 20:07, 6 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Fair use rationale for Image:Petra 1979.jpg

Image:Petra 1979.jpg is being used on this article. I notice the image page specifies that the image is being used under fair use but there is no explanation or rationale as to why its use in this Wikipedia article constitutes fair use. In addition to the boilerplate fair use template, you must also write out on the image description page a specific explanation or rationale for why using this image in each article is consistent with fair use.

Please go to the image description page and edit it to include a fair use rationale. Using one of the templates at Wikipedia:Fair use rationale guideline is an easy way to ensure that your image is in compliance with Wikipedia policy, but remember that you must complete the template. Do not simply insert a blank template on an image page.

If there is other fair use media, consider checking that you have specified the fair use rationale on the other images used on this page. Note that any fair use images lacking such an explanation can be deleted one week after being tagged, as described on criteria for speedy deletion. If you have any questions please ask them at the Media copyright questions page. Thank you.

BetacommandBot (talk) 15:55, 8 March 2008 (UTC)

Added FUR. →Wordbuilder (talk) 16:19, 8 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Fair use rationale for Image:Petra 197x-c.JPG

Image:Petra 197x-c.JPG is being used on this article. I notice the image page specifies that the image is being used under fair use but there is no explanation or rationale as to why its use in this Wikipedia article constitutes fair use. In addition to the boilerplate fair use template, you must also write out on the image description page a specific explanation or rationale for why using this image in each article is consistent with fair use.

BetacommandBot (talk) 15:57, 8 March 2008 (UTC)

Added FUR. →Wordbuilder (talk) 16:17, 8 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Fair use rationale for Image:Petra 2001 promo2.gif

Image:Petra 2001 promo2.gif is being used on this article. I notice the image page specifies that the image is being used under fair use but there is no explanation or rationale as to why its use in this Wikipedia article constitutes fair use. In addition to the boilerplate fair use template, you must also write out on the image description page a specific explanation or rationale for why using this image in each article is consistent with fair use.

BetacommandBot (talk) 16:06, 8 March 2008 (UTC)

Added FUR. →Wordbuilder (talk) 16:24, 8 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Fair use rationale for Image:Petra 2003 new.jpg

Image:Petra 2003 new.jpg is being used on this article. I notice the image page specifies that the image is being used under fair use but there is no explanation or rationale as to why its use in this Wikipedia article constitutes fair use. In addition to the boilerplate fair use template, you must also write out on the image description page a specific explanation or rationale for why using this image in each article is consistent with fair use.

BetacommandBot (talk) 16:08, 8 March 2008 (UTC)

Added FUR. →Wordbuilder (talk) 16:28, 8 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] The band - it or they ?

Hello all. This was raised as a minor point earlier, and it was settled that the band should be referred to as it, while we could use they to refer to the band members. However, there are several conflicting examples from existing FA-status band articles.

U2, are consistently referred to in the plural, throughout.
Megadeth, are referred to inconsistently as it, and in the plural
Metallica, are consistently referred to in the singular-form

What do we do? I am looking for consensus for going one-way or the other. Trying to refer to the band in the singular does present a few problems, because we generally refer to a band as them. So I'm thinking we could keep this discussion open for a few days (mebbe even a few weeks) and then see what is the outcome. aJCfreak yAk 21:06, 28 April 2008 (UTC)

You bring up an excellent point. I change my vote to using "they" and "their" like the U2 article. →Wordbuilder (talk) 21:28, 28 April 2008 (UTC)

I prefer "they" and "their", but that's an issue that can still arise when the article is recommended for GA/FA status. Thief12 (talk) 00:07, 29 April 2008 (UTC)

Well, if U2 are allowed to exist in the plural form and remain an FA, then I don't see why Petra can't be the same! :) aJCfreak yAk 00:11, 29 April 2008 (UTC)

I think U2 is not a valid comparison. They are a British band, while Petra is an American band. The treatment of collective nouns (such as the name of a band, team, or company) seems to differ between Americans and the British. Kirkman (talk) 02:46, 4 May 2008 (UTC)

My vote is for "it" in any sentence where "it" refers to the words "Petra" or "band." Both Petra and "band" are singular words. Think about the grammar of using "they," a plural pronoun. Which sounds right: "Petra are great" or "Petra is great"? The answer is obviously the latter. Same thing with these examples: "The band are great" or "The band is great." Consequently, you need to use a singular pronoun ("it") to agree with the singular verb "is."

If you want to read more on this topic, try these articles: [1] [2]

(I think it would be fine to refer to use "they" in any sentence where "they" refers back to the word "bandmembers" or "members.") Kirkman (talk) 02:46, 4 May 2008 (UTC)

Good point. I didn't think of the British/American English differences, cos I didn't know. I'm an Indian, and we are taught the British English, learn and pick up American English from the movies that we watch. So it's a pretty messed-up English back home. :) So, I guess we'll go with the singular when referring to the band as an entity. I totally understood your reasons for stating this previously, just wanted to get a wider opinion/consensus, if possible. But I'd like to keep this discussion open for a few more days, if that's okay with you. Please don't mistake my intentions - I'm not fishing for reasons to call the band they. Just wondering if others have comments, too. :) aJCfreak yAk 16:54, 5 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Usage of Image:Petra no.jpg

If we wish to get this article to GA/FA status anytime, we should remove this image from the article. Fair Use images are not to be used to depict characters present within; we can use this cover image if we're talking about the cover itself - not to depict the new band members. So, we could either write (sourced!) comments about the cover and let the image be, or we could simply find another useable image to depict the newcomers. What shall we do? aJCfreak yAk 22:10, 28 April 2008 (UTC)