Talk:Peter Tordenskjold

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[edit] matches

you might want to incorperate into the article that a widely avalible brand of matchsticks in denmark is named "Tordenskjold" and features a painting of him on the front. the matches are, ironicaly, made by a swedish company.


[edit] Nationality

Edited Tordenskjolds nationality from 'Danish-Norwegian' to Norwegian. In order to be 'Danish-Norwegian' one parent had to be from Denmark. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Nastykermit (talk • contribs) 15:43, 24 September 2007 (UTC)

I reverted the nationality change. Nationality is not as simple as where your parents are from -I doubt that anyone would dispute that Arnold Schwarzenegger is American as well as Austrian, although none of his parents are Americans.
The nationality of Tordenskjold is debated on da:Diskussion:Peter Wessel Tordenskiold right now (in Danish), and it should be noted that all but one of the interwiki-versions of this article until recently had "Danish-Norwegian" (or Norwegian-Danish) listed as the nationality. -- JGC 21:20, 25 September 2007 (UTC)

Arnold is Austrian-/american because he is an american citizen by choice. Peter wessel was simply a Norwegian serving in the Danish navy. Norwegian wikipedia describes him as a Norwegian officer serving in the Danish navy. This is a more correct description as its based on facts not nationalism. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Nastykermit (talk • contribs) 12:31, 28 September 2007 (UTC)

You are rewriting history. Please give some examples of solid written sources stating that Tordenskjold was Norwegian and not Danish (and Norwegian).
Of the two Norwegian wikis, only one of them state him as sole Norwegian (no:Peter Wessel), while the other - as most other wikis - list him as coming from both countries (nn:Peter Wessel Tordenskjold). --JGC 13:43, 28 September 2007 (UTC)

What? He was born and raised in Norway. You are blatanlty POV and nationalistic. Even Danish wiki confirm that he was born in Trondheim http://da.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peter_Wessel_Tordenskiold The reason why Danish wiki says hes 'Danish-Norwegian' is because hes the greatest hero in the history on Denmark-Norway. And you nationalistic Danes cant handle the fact that youre greatest hero is fullblood Norwegian. Stop being an POV idiot.



—Preceding unsigned comment added by Nastykermit (talk • contribs) 18:33, 28 September 2007 (UTC)


Third Opinion: After reviewing material in my home edition of Britannica, and doing a Google search on the topic, my conclusion is clear. Tordenskjold was born in Trondhjem, Norway, which makes him Norwegian. This, however is not where it ends.

Let's back up and look at this objectively, so you can both see my point of view. I was born and raised in the USA. If I decide to run off to Denmark, am I still an American? I would surely say so. Would I be Danish-American? No. Would my children, if born in Denmark to me, their American father, and a Danish woman, be considered Danish-American? Yes, you could say so. If I swore allegiance to Denmark, and became a citizen, I would then say I am Danish or Danish-American.

Simply moving to another country, in my opinion, does not change ones nationality. The question you must ask is: Did Tordenskjold swear allegiance to Denmark and/or become a citizen? Obviously so, as he fought for their Navy. It is quite difficult to fight for the military of another nation, successfully I might add, without valuing that country.

Therefore, my third opinion, which you may take with whatever grain-of-salt you so desire is: Peder Tordenskjold was Norwegian by birth, but Danish-Norwegian through most of his life. I think it is fair to list him as Danish-Norwegian in any reference/articles about him.

Jsmykal 17:54, 29 September 2007 (UTC)

First of all, thanks for the third opinion. I think however that you might have missed a point - the two countries Denmark and Norway was - at Tordenskjolds time - engaged in a union. Tordenskjold did not have to swear allegiance to Denmark, since he as citizen of the union already would be considered a loyal soldier. There was - to my knowledge (I should argue that I'm not a historian) - no Norwegian navy that Tordenskjold could have joined - only a single navy with people from both countries in the union.
There can be - and most certainly are - quite different view of the long union between Denmark and Norway - and I will not deny that many Norwegians see the union as a time of suppression. But it is an indisputable fact that Tordenskjold is central part of Danish history (as well as Norwegian history). If his is listed as Norwegian - and not Danish/Norwegian - it would seem he was hired or "loaned" from Norway to serve the Danish navy - that is not a correct description. --JGC 18:49, 29 September 2007 (UTC)

There were no 'Norwegian navy' as already mentioned, only the Danish so in fact he was kind of loaned. JGC, the vast majority of Norwegians (and historians) see the union as a disaster for the Kingdom of Norway. Ibsen our most famous writer refers to it as the '400 year night'. It delt a severe blow to Norwegian culture and language, and Norwegian state goods as well as silver mines were emptied to finance Danish wars across the continet as well as building palaces in Copenhagen. as a result of Dane wars, Norway lost Jamtland, Bohuslån, Herjedalen, Iceland, The Faroese Island and Greenland. I have encountered many danes who seam to have a very innocent view of the union, and to Norwegians that view can be quite offensive. Nastykermit 08:51, 30 September 2007 (UTC)

This is and has been a hot topic regarding any famous Norwegian from the time of the union with Denmark. Ludvig Holberg is also a hot candidate for this debate. It is important to note that the notion of state in Tordenskjold's time does not fit with our notion of the modern state. A Norwegian author (I forget his name right now) in the 1700s wrote that he and his contemporaries had a dual citicenship: their natural was Norwegian and their "political" was of the Oldenburg state they shared with Danes, Holsteiners etc. When it comes to military service Norway and Denmark had separate national armies, both ruled by the king. The navy was regarded as the king's property and was common to all the components of the Oldenburg state. That being said it was common for officers to have an international career. Many officers both in the two armies and in the fleet were German or Dutch. I have read several accounts of officers in foreign service being recalled to their home country in times of war for that country. It seems there could be a dual loyalty, but this is less relevant in Tordenskjold's case as he was serving in the fleet of the king of Norway. What he himself felt is not known. I suspect he was Norwegian in his roots and origin, but had an international upper class identity in his later years. The bottom line here is that he is a hero both for Norway and the Norwegian Navy and Denmark and the Danish navy. The article must reflect that. Inge 14:55, 30 September 2007 (UTC)
You are the one being nationalistic, Tordenskjold was born and died in the Danish-Norwegian kingdom, and thus he is Danish and Norwegian. It is you norwegian nationalists who can't handle that he isn't fullblood Norwegian. Furthermore out biggest naval hero is Carl Wilhelm Jessen; but I'm sure you want to call him Norwegian as well. User:81.44.118.20
This last comment really illustrates the comedy of having a discussion on this level. As can be seen in the history the anon first named Niels Juel as the greatest naval hero but then apparantly read the article and saw he was in fact born in Norway as well...Inge (talk) 13:48, 17 January 2008 (UTC)
The book "For Norge, kjempers fødeland" by Øystein Rian published in 2007 deals in part with Tordenskjold's own attitude towards his country or nationality. The oldest known song about him was made in the fall of 1715 by a Danish priest and calls him the Norwegian sea hero. Tordenskjold himself preferred Norwegian crew and called himself Norwegian on several occations (page 200). In a letter to the king 16 November 1716 he asks for a sign of good will towards "os Dynekildens norske drenge" (us Norwegian lads of the Dynekil). In 1712 he renamed the captured ship "Svenska Vapnet" to "Norske Våben". The Norwegian lion was the basic element of his signet. In his letters he mentions no other geographical area more than Norway. He would use phrases such as "de norske grenser" (the Norwegian borders) and "den norske vald" (areas belonging to Norway). He would differentiate between Norwegian and Danish sailors and soldiers and called groups of Norwegian merchant ships "den norske flåde" and the part of the Common Navy stationed in Norway "den norske søarmatur". He would emphasise the separateness by using phrases such as "velsignelse i begge riger" (blessing in both realms). He also called Norway both "kjære" and "ælskelig" "fæderneland" (dear and lovable fatherland). Inge (talk) 14:51, 17 January 2008 (UTC)
In case we are still discussing this. Denmark-Norway was an entity back then, so let's keep it at that in the start of the article. I think it is as neutral as we're going to get. However, this certainly is a controversy - most Danes consider him Danish, most Norwegians consider him Norwegian, I think. This could easily merit a brief section in the article, something like "Nationality dispute" or whatever. IF, and only if, we can find neutral, reliable sources - i.e. a reliable source that describes the disagreement accurately and without bias towards one side or the other being correct. This is what we always do on Wikipedia. -Lilac Soul (talk • contribs • count) • I'm watching this page so just reply to me right here! 09:28, 12 March 2008 (UTC)

The time has come to end this confused discussion. The confusion stems from the failure by most contributors to distinguish between the terms nationality and citizenship. At the time of Tordenskjold, Denmark-Norway was one state consisting of two kingdoms, two duchies and some other territories in a personal and legislative union. But Denmark and Norway were considered two kingdoms, not one. The royal title was always "King of Denmark and Norway etc." The former state now usually called Denmark-Norway, or in both languages "helstaten", was at that time often referred to as Denmark for short, but on formal occasions called "tvillingrigerne" — "the twin realms". Except for a few separate Norwegian institutions, the state was closely integrated. It had one common state church and one navy. The state may best be compared to the United Kingdom of Great Britain" established in 1707 as a legislative union between the former kingdoms of England and Scotland.

The subjects of the king of Denmark-Norway would in today's terms be citizens of that consolidated state, much as natives of Great Britain are citizens of the United Kingdom, not of England or Scotland. But in terms of nationality, most citizens of the United Kingdom consider themselves to be Englishmen or Scots, respectively, in spite of efforts to construct a common British identity. Sean Connery may tolerate being called British, but certainly not English.

Similarly, the citizens of Denmark-Norway considered themselves to be of Danish or Norwegian nationality, as has been well documented by the eminent historian Øystein Rian, referred to by Inge above. They did not have recourse to a common term similar to "British" as a way out. For that reason, and because the legal status of the united kingdoms was not well known, foreigners often called all Dano-Norwegian citizens "Danish", just as Continental Europeans often spoke (and some still speak) of "England" when they meant (or mean) the United Kingdom. The situation of Norwegian nationals during the time of Tordenskjold was probably much the same as that of Scots in the present United Kingdom. Am I right in stating that they will usually resent being called English? There is evidence to support the assumption that not only Tordenskjold but most of his countrymen preferred to be called Norwegians, and resented to be called Danish.

That sense of belonging to a separate nation did not prevent Tordenskjold and the majority of sailors in the common Dano-Norwegian navy who were Norwegian nationals to consider themselves loyal subjects of their king — the king of Norway, who happened also to be the king of Denmark.

The crucial point here is to distinguish between nationality and citizenship. A look at the article on Scotland is recommended as an aid to discerning the difference between the concepts. If that distinction is considered, may we conclude that Tordenskjold was a Norwegian naval officer of the Dano-Norwegian navy in the service of the king of Denmark-Norway? Roede (talk) 21:56, 25 March 2008 (UTC)

I think that is a good solution, and a correct description. -- Nidator T / C 11:42, 30 March 2008 (UTC)