Talk:Peter Roskam/Archive3

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Contents

[edit] "most-watched race"

User:NatusRoma said "just because one local paper has said it's the most-watched doesn't mean we should use that judgment"

The thing is that I didnt say that the race was the most-watched, but that it had been called the most-watched, which is pretty indisputable, and notable. — goethean ॐ 14:20, 21 September 2006 (UTC)

It is indubitably indisputable. That doesn't mean that it's notable. It would be notable if lots of different sources called it the most watched. NatusRoma | Talk 19:03, 21 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Suicide

I removed the segment referring to Roskam opposing any mentoin of suicide in public schools which was supposed to be taken from an Esquire article, because the external links provided were non-working and upon searching the words Roskam, suicide, esquire I found nothing relating to that topic.--Tdl1060 21:50, 28 September 2006 (UTC)

They currently work for me. Furthermore, the removed text also included the following reference: "A National Knife Fight" by Joshua Green Oct 2006 Esquire, 236". If you were to pick up a copy of the latest dead-tree edition of Esquire magazine and turn to p. 236, you will see coverage of Roskam's plans. The blog link is for your convenience only. I am reverting. — goethean ॐ 22:02, 28 September 2006 (UTC)
Those links don't work for me either. It only returns "forbidden". Also, blogs are not a reliable source --rogerd 22:11, 28 September 2006 (UTC)
Esquire is the source. Please don't misapply WP:RS. Gamaliel 22:12, 28 September 2006 (UTC)
Agreed. The material should be removed if it fails to meet WP:RS. A blog, or news "analysis" or partisan website does not meet that criteria. In addition, the link is not readily applicable. Therefore, it is functionally uncited. Arcayne 22:07, 31 October 2006 (UTC)
Please read more closely. The source is the October print issue of Esquire magazine. — goethean ॐ 22:15, 31 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Removal of Molly Ivins comments

User:Tdl1060 removed comments made by Nationally syndicated columnist Molly Ivins on Roskam. The comments are probably the widest attention that Roskam has received in his entire political career. They are notable and should be replaced. — goethean ॐ 21:32, 29 September 2006 (UTC)

This race has been featured on NBC Nightly News, that is wider attention than Ivins' commentary, secondly this is a third party commenting on a statement, Does wikipedia have every quote Rush Limbaugh (on the right), or Al Franken (on the left) makes on any given politician on their programs, placed on that politician's article? If it did that would be what most of many politician's articles would be comprised of. Molly Ivins' quote is no different, and is of no more importance. --Tdl1060 21:58, 29 September 2006 (UTC)


[edit] Partisan entries

I was wondering why was this added considering this article is a bio and Peter Roskam and not about Folly or Hasert?

On 3 October 2006, Roskam's opponent charged that Roskam should return the $40,000 in campaign contributions that he received from House Speaker Hastert and other House leaders due to their role in the cover-up of the Mark Foley sexual harrassment scandal. Roskam responded that Hastert acted correctly and added that "the Democrats have had lots of scandals of their own." [58]

I wonder why the tone of this article is so negative and only negative additions are not challenged as well as the article locked down and any positive entries removed. As I understand Wikipedia policy regarding Biographies of Living persons, it would seem to me this article violates the sprit and intent of that policy as well there seems to be a lack of enforcement of these polices? I can see, though the histories of editing by the primary participants of this article, there seems to be a partisan agenda being pushed here.

Why is this allowed? Any Rate, these are questions that seem to beg here.Timmy0691 14:29, 4 October 2006 (UTC)

It should be noted that Propol should discuss first, before adding inflammatory accusations and damaging information on a living biography of a living person considering the consequences of getting it wrong. Propol (see his editing history) seems to have with this article. Many of his additions are either cruft, or added for negative effect as well as the picture, of dubious copywrite. Propol gives undue weight to every small and negative fact while editing out and dismissing positive entries. This would seem to be inconsistent with Wikipolicy of Undue weight and biography of living persons. Again, Propol should discuss first. Until he comes to the table to discuss, I will remove his editing. It is not a violation of good faith to note facts of apparent bias and bringing an editors history in review, inorder to protect and further true NPOV of a Biography of a Living person, who is running for political office and whose article needs to be NPOV due to, again the consequences if it is not.207.67.145.194 01:28, 9 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Equal Rights Amendment?

I am curious what relevance the subject's stance on the ERA has to this article. He wasn't even of the age of majority yet when that amendment failed. Should we include his stance on the Civil War, and Marbury v. Madison as well? - Crockspot 17:08, 11 October 2006 (UTC)

More importantly, does he support the Magna Carta? Gamaliel 17:26, 11 October 2006 (UTC)
Damn! That would have been a good question to submit to the debate. — goethean ॐ 17:36, 11 October 2006 (UTC)
If you want to remove Roskam's ERA position, I won't object, but I do think it provides some insight as to his mindset. As for the Civil War, Roskam stated he would support a States' rights argument. Campaign Manager Ryan McLaughlin is still researching the Magna Carta. Propol 19:22, 11 October 2006 (UTC)
Since the ERA failed ratification, that mindset could certainly not be considered unusual, extreme, or even minority. I'm going to go ahead and remove it as irrelevant. Crockspot 20:43, 11 October 2006 (UTC)
84 Senators voted for the ERA. 354 Representatives voted for the ERA. 35 states voted in favor of the ERA. The Republican Party officially supported the ERA at that point in time. Some might think ERA opposition is an unusual, extreme, and minority viewpoint. Propol 21:15, 11 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Kolbe contributions

I have removed the paragraph about contributions from Jim Kolbe because, at this point, they're such a minor detail that they're irrelevant. No one has criticized Roskam (or any other politician, as far as I know) for keeping contributions from Kolbe. NatusRoma | Talk 20:05, 20 October 2006 (UTC)

...And frankly, they don't seem to address who Peter Roskam is (which would appear to be the actual purpose of creating an entry for him in the first place). Even citable sources are inappropriate if they contain unsupported opinion. Pete 06:21, 25 October 2006 (UTC)arcayne


[edit] The Problem with Entries of Current Political Candidates

Reading through the back and forth from the educated folk posting here, it is clear that even the intelligent and well-meaning (as well as those notably less so) have difficulty leaving their political leanings at the door. I understand and appreciate that Wikipedia is a living, breathing thing. I dig that the crucible of the back and forth for most topics renders the viewing public with a midle-ground article that is more truth than opinion, and I approve of it.

That being said, I am not sure we are capable of objectively creating entries for political candidates currently running for office. As recent election tatics in other media have clearly indicated, the potential for abuse of Wikipedia by those who would use this site as a lobbying platform or dirty tricks venue is too obvious to ignore. To allow or condone such activity undermines the goal of Wikipedia, and frustrates the efforts of the editorial staff. It also wastes both their time as well as bandwidth.

The Roskam article is but one of many in which the editing back and forth by users either unfamiliar with the process of revision or unwilling to consent to supervision has wasted an enormouss amount of time. Clearly, some of the edits were necessary, as there were relatively inflammatory edits included as well as the inclusion of flyer information or campaign manager quotes that could not be directly attributable to the person named in the entry. I realize that this can become a somewhat gray area, and tempers can flare.

This is why I propose that the Editorial Staff (or Supervisory Staff/500 Monkeys/Whatever) at Wikipedia prohibit the entries of any political candidates currently running for office. This protects the integrity of Wikipedia. As people may use Wikipedia as a resource to learn more about a candidate, it is imperative that the site remains impartial in the extreme. Those who might object to this moratorium might argue that this prohibition interferes with the freedom of information. I would argue that these some of these same people are cynically utilizing the free access that Wikipedia provides to promote a less-than-neutral agenda. In short, Wikipedia should have the right to protect its own integrity, and keeping political gamesmanship from being submitted as neutral data.

It should be noted that this same moratorium should not apply to candidates not running for office, or for those out of office. Entries for individuals that eventually run for office - and perhaps this should be a permanent policy to be instituted - should then be edited for both accuracy and non-partisanship. Pete 05:16, 24 October 2006 (UTC)arcayne_1

Like most newspapers, Wikipedia generally presumes that a candidate who speaks through a campaign manager speaks for himself or herself. The solution to biased edits is oversight, not a lockdown. NatusRoma | Talk 20:55, 25 October 2006 (UTC)
An interesting idea, though I imagine it would meet objections from people who feel that this goes against WP principles of openness or feel that existing WP methods are sufficient to combat these problems. You'll find a larger audience for your suggestion at the Village Pump, as opposed to the relatively few people who come through here. Gamaliel 21:08, 25 October 2006 (UTC)
WP is not most newspapers, NatusRoma. It is an encyclopedia. Anyone not living under a rock for the past 50 years is fully aware that campaign managers are political operatives who work in concert with others (sometimes extraordinarily unscrupulous individuals - ie., Karl Rove, Swift Boats for Justice, etc.) who will sometimes attempt to shape policy by putting words into the mouth of the candidate rather than reiterate the specific policy views of the candidate. To presume that a campaign manager speaks for a candidate when there are virtually unlimited methods by which a candidate can express their OWN views is at best gullible and at worst misleading and deceptive. The entry is about the subject of the entrant, not what someone says who the entrant is. If someone wants to craft an entry for the campaign manager, I think that should be done. However, if someone wants to presume that the words from the mouth of one person replace those of another, more significant person, then perhaps that person should revisit the timelines of the McCarty Hearings. The entrant speaks for themself, or they do not speak, It is clearly that simple. A person can be held to account for their words, not what someone elser said their words were.

WP for all of its openness as stated in the 5 Pillars owes its self-described descriptor as an online encyclopedia. As far as I know, neutrality was the key component to encyclopedias, online or not. The openness prescribed by WP was to presumably prevent bias from entering in, and for allowing a well-rounded entry - the sole purpose of this being to arrive at more accurate and less-biased entries. To utilize the open quality of WP as a shield to shape an entry via smear, innuendo or misinterpretation is a cynical abuse of Wikipedia, and should not be tolerated. There is no "fair and balanced" here, nor should there be. The entries are meant to be absolutely neutral - even to the extent of removing parts that cannot be proven. It is this overiding concern that makes all people and all entries equal in WP. Striving for anything less - or allowing less scrupulous or less idealistic folk to influence us into accepting less - and Wikipedia becomes a subjective microphone to anyone who wants to sock puppet with a host of others into getting their way.

Thank you for your advice, Gamaliel; I will address the larger concerns of my suggestion at the WP: PUMP. Thanks for pointing it out to me. Pete 22:14, 25 October 2006 (UTC)arcayne

I would dispute the idea that what a political campaign manager for a particular candidate says is not relevant to that candidate's article. — goethean ॐ 22:42, 25 October 2006 (UTC)
Note: I normally wouldn't blank anyone, but the comments offered by an anonymous user were specifically inflammatory and designed to cause a flame war. So I removed them, because I want a reasoned discussion about my subject here.

Let's keep it civil, shall we? Pete 04:11, 26 October 2006 (UTC)arcayne


I don't see how you could, Goethean. I understand how a campaign manager's statements or actions might be relevant if he took out a gun at a press conference and opened up on the press corps, or sank the campaign over comments that the candidate wouldn't have said. The guiding principle here should be: does it affect the entry of the candidate, or merely support it? If it affects the subject of the entrant (in this case, the candidate), then it is relevant as it affects the canddiate's life. If it merely attempts to speak for the candidate (in other words, imprinting the words and views of the campaign manager over those of the candidate), then it is not germane to the entry. Simply put, if it cannot be verified that a candidate took an actual position or spoke up personally on policy issues, it is not something that they said, and not germane to an entry on who they are.

Frankly, it is lazy writing and sloppy editing to use a campaign manager's quotes in place of the actual candidates' own words. If the candidate isn't prepared to speak up for themselves and allow their own words to be used, quoted and cited, it is highly inappropriate to allow them the benefit of being paraphrased. That might be fine for teh Enquirer, but this is an encyclopedia, sir. We play by different rules and hold to a higher standard.Pete 03:09, 26 October 2006 (UTC)arcayne

A candidate whose views were being misrepresented by a spokesperson would fire that spokesperson in short order. By definition, a person who serves as another's spokesperson speaks for that candidate as if the candidate were speaking for himself or herself. Furthermore, the dichotomy between "supporting" and "affecting" is a false one. Sourced and accurate information that falls short of undue weight is not judged by whether it is "positive" or "negative". However, there are apparently "rules" and "standards" that forbid Wikipedia from quoting spokespeople. I would very much like to see such a Wikipedia policy or guideline cited on this page. NatusRoma | Talk 03:41, 26 October 2006 (UTC)

User: NatusRoma I think that you are perhaps assuming that that sort of doubletalk doesn't happen every day. And spokespeople are fired, every day. A campaign manager is usually unlikely to be fired, as that is interpreted by both the press and the electorate as dissension within the campaign ranks, leading people to wonder how the person can control the office they aspire to, if they cannot even control their campaign. It happens - we just don't always hear about it. Perhaps my dichotomy between support and affect are unclear, and I apologize for that. As well, there aren't standards as to the quoting of spokespeople, aside from the 5 Pillars of WP requiring accuracy and neutrality. The fact is,almost all of these statements are almost always distorted interpretations of the candidate's actual views. There are very few pure Republicans or Democrats running for office out there, and it is the campaign manager's job to make sure the candidate colors within the party lines. The problem with this is that many candidates don't define themselves by those lines. However they tend to benefit from smear campaigns that they do not publicly endorse, such as the SwiftBoat scumbags who influenced the 2004 election. That is the crux of the issue here. This is an encyclopedia. Not a ghost-written autobiography. Not an interpretation of who they are through some artful song-and-dance as performed by the campaign manager. It is to be a truthful, neutral and verifiably accurate definition and history of the person. If the person does not say that they support a specific position through their own, citable words, then there is no proof that they said them at all. Allowing such is not accurate or neutral. Therefore, it doesn't belong as a part of the factual entry.Pete 04:11, 26 October 2006 (UTC)arcayne

[edit] Stem Cell Research...Revision

I am changing the statement:

Roskam attempted to pre-empt the appearance by holding a simultaneous press conference featuring a cancer survivor who was treated with his own cells.[24]

To something more neutral, such as "Roskam held a simultaneous press conference featuring...etc." The first statement is inflammatory for numerous reasons. As well, the cited source did not even mention the simultaneous press conferences, or that Roskam decided to have a press conference after learning about Duckworth's intended press conference.

I will reiterate, the citation used for the unedited statement bore no resemblance to, or supported the content of, the statements used in the sentence. Perhaps we should take a look at the references for all of these statements. It is a common tactic by folks like Ann Coulter to cite sources so as to have the appearance of citation while not actually possessing the authority of citatable sources.Pete 22:37, 25 October 2006 (UTC)arcayne

Please add comments on entirely new topics to the bottom of the talk page. This is the general practice here and people are more likely to read them as they are used to seeing them there. Thanks. Gamaliel 22:45, 25 October 2006 (UTC)
Sorry, Gamaliel. Sorta new here, and still learning the procedures. I had tried to enter the topic where appropriate, and now consider myself properly corrected. :) Pete 04:14, 26 October 2006 (UTC)arcayne
I am certain that the "pre-empt" language was in the source when I used it. It's possible that the article has changed since I accessed it. — goethean ॐ 14:26, 26 October 2006 (UTC)
google cache — goethean ॐ 21:33, 26 October 2006 (UTC)

Gothean, I can certainly appreciate that the obviously biased AP reporter thought that Roskam's action was less than altruistically motivated: "Roskam attempted to pre-empt the appearance," but I think that its advisable to look at the inherent fallacies of that statement. Roskam actually did hold his press conference. As well, his press conference did not actually stop his opponent's press conference. Therefore, one can see why this statement might be considered bias. It makes the candidate Roskam seem desperate and petty. While this might be in fact true, it is not WP's place - or yours as a user/editor - to make that determination. We can say that he held a simultaneous press conference, and what that press conference entailed. We should, however, leave the determination of whether someone attempted to pre-empt or not to the reader. I have read some of your edits in other areas; you need to maintain a professional lack of bias here. I think you should seek out another citation, one that has less bias.

I think it important not to simply cite material, but chose those citations that are less biased on their own. What do other user's think?Arcayne 07:13, 29 October 2006 (UTC)

A new source, one that was more neutral (pure news as opposed to news analysis) was found that provided neutral source material with which to re-state the dual press conferences (with proper citation).Arcayne 18:29, 1 November 2006 (UTC)

The paragraph:

Although Roskam fought privately-funded embyronic stem cell research in the Illinois legislature, he now suggests private funding as an alternative to public funding. [25]

I was originally alerted to the possible bias of the statement by the word 'fought.' Upon checking the source link, I discovered it was a link to a political opinion page. As well, nowhere was above quote or paraphrasing of the statement above to be found. Unless a more credible (or at least more accurate) source can be cited, it cannot stay.Arcayne 19:45, 1 November 2006 (UTC)

The source is perfectly accurate. However, I will find a additional source. — goethean ॐ 20:07, 1 November 2006 (UTC)

I think we would all appreciate the proper assignment of sources, as well as an avoidance of paraphrasing which can lead to accusations of bias. I should point out however, that I have read the source you have cited three separate times now, and nowhere in the article does it state what you are (supposedly) paraphrasing. Specifically, this source, a politcal opinion (no better than a blog) puts words in the candidate's mouth. As well, nowhere in this cited article does it state that Roskam "fought" anything. Using that particular action word implies bias. Arcayne 20:19, 1 November 2006 (UTC) Until a proper source can be cited, or the text re-worked, it should not remain. It is unsubstantiated text.Arcayne 20:20, 1 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Spring, 2006...Revision

It was quoted: [On May 9, 2006, Duckworth accused Roskam of "standing silent in the face of bigotry."]. Actually, when checking the citation for this comment (to verify its accuracy), what was actually said was:

Peter Roskam's silence in the face of bigotry is not leadership.::

Quite a difference, and one that made me look a bit closer at the text as written. I found a great many other contextural innaccuracies, and will therefore revise them to reflect - correctly - what was originally cited. It should be noted that the cited source was a Conservative Christian news site that defends Rios' and her beliefs, and views secular humanity in the midst of a "culture war." I think it is important to note the philosophical stance of a publication before directly citing its material - there is a tendency amongst these publications to skew the reporting towards that which will feed its its subjective world-view.Arcayne 07:13, 26 October 2006 (UTC)

Thanks for your help. — goethean ॐ 14:22, 26 October 2006 (UTC)
Happy to help, and thanks for saying thanks :) Arcayne 08:29, 2 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Political Contributions

The source cited (91) does not contain anything resembling the statements used in the article, most notable among them:

"...the Democrats have had lots of scandals of their own."

In fact, the cited article has no such comment as stated by candidate Roskam (it was stated by an unnamed campaign staffer). Therefore, it will be purged as bias.

I am noticing that some of my fellow editors are choosing to paraphrase their cited material, or perhaps not even using the citations at all, using the citation perhaps as some sort of badge that the information stated has been verified. I suggest that this practice is unacceptable, and opens WP to further editorial abuse. Do not paraphrase the articles, despite the brevity that you may think you are providing. As well, I might suggest that you find citable sources that are actual news *stories* and not skewed candidate websites and political blogs and other news analysis websites. Find the pure news, or don't bother.Arcayne

You are the only editor on this page who sees such a vast distinction between what the campaign says and what the candidate says. You have argued for this point quite passionately, and have convinced, as far as I know, no one. — goethean ॐ 22:13, 31 October 2006 (UTC)

I am not looking to convince anyone, Gothean. I am justfollowing the rules as set up by WP:RS. I suggest that you may peruse this at your leisure, and perhaps adjust what has been pointed out in the past (by more than a few of our fellow editors) as a tad more biased than the norm.

Allow me to be clear: the words of a candidate's campaign manager are NOT the words of the candidate. Therefore, they do not belong in a bio entry for that candidate. It's pretty simple, I think.Arcayne 22:23, 31 October 2006 (UTC)

Arcayne, I understand your concerns about presenting the opinions of a campaign spokesman or political operative as that of the candidate; however, I think it is appropriate in most cases. If there were ever reason to believe that the comments of a campaign staffer were not representative of the candidate's position, then it might be a different case. Ultimately the candidate is responsible for the comments from his campaign. If someone said something inappropriate it is up to the candidate to correct the situation. That doesn't have to include firing someone. It could simply be to issue a clarifying statement... the comment from yesterday represented their personal view and not that of the campaign. Left unchecked, the candidate has accepted liability. Whatever Tony Snow says will reflect upon George W. Bush, unless he takes action to the contrary. Thanks. Propol 22:31, 31 October 2006 (UTC)
I am not looking to convince anyone, Gothean.
Um...you should be, because consensus on the talk page determines what goes into and comes out of the article.
I am justfollowing the rules as set up by WP:RS.
WP:RS says no such thing. You are attempting to create new policy on the fly. I suggest you discuss your issues at WP:RS or some other policy page rather than here. — goethean ॐ 23:25, 31 October 2006 (UTC)

If this were a truth-in-politics website, I would agree with you, Propol. However, this is an encyclopedia website. The entry's title is Peter Roskam, and not what-Peter-Roskam's-Handlers-Say-He-Says. In politics, a candidate (or incumbent official) are sble to blanket themselves in plausible deniability when their statements are issued through second-hand sources, even if those statements are in concurrence with their own beliefs. They are unable to claim any deniability when they make the statement themselves. They can merely apologize for them and reap the rewards or penalties for them. It would do us no good to correct campaign statements to the effect that the opponent committed murder upon a busload of nuns with a herring, only to have the candidate distance him/herself later (possibly after they won the election due to that comment), as our supposedly factual information helped to contribute to the falsehood. Whether we like it or not, WP is used by many as a primary research tool. We have a responsibility to ensure that what we enter is eminently verifiable - it is the candidate's words, or it isn't. There is no gray area here, but there are issues hanging in the balance.

This is the key issue here, I feel. As an encyclopedia, we have a higher calling than parroting what campaign staff issues in crafted sound-bytes. There is a reason why the entries are under the candidate's name, and not 'Candidate-X's Campaign.' We are not here to reiterate what the campaign says. We are here to document what the candidate says themself. WP:RS clearly says that we must exercise caution when using material from questionalbe sources, and political campaigns are precisely such sources.

I agree that this raises the standard of documentation specifically for political campaigns, but the stakes are also proportionally higher. Just looking at the edit pages for the Illinois 6th race has turned up faulty or outright false edits and citations, overly biased commentary and structure and (at least on the discussion pages) outright flame wars between editors. Politcs and abortion are two subjects that aren't discussed in polite company for a reason; they are divisive and volatile topics. Extra care should be practiced with them. As documentarians, it is ever more so, since our collective word creates what is supposed to be an unbiased truth. Allowing for the statement of heresay and unsupported (ie, genuinely citable) material is a corrosive influence on that reputation. When we consider that WP can clearly be used by unscrupulous political operatives (ie, swiftboating) to aqlter public perception of their candidates by citing wildly inaccurate information and dramatically incorrect heresay, it is more than advisable to filter out anything that the candidate did not say themselves (and is absolutely verifiable and therefore citable); it is a professional and moral imperative.

For those editors who feel that the ends justifies the means, especially those with a partisan bent, please consider that by arguing for the inclusion of biased material paves the way for those who have a diametrically opposed partisan view from yourself using your own arguments to shore up their own partisan statements. The best tactic is for us to remain neutral. This means editing to remove bias. This means citing sources that are not partisan or conjectural. This means keeping a healthy distance from the fray, and verifying everything.Arcayne 23:05, 31 October 2006 (UTC)

I am not looking to convince anyone, Gothean. Um...you should be, because consensus on the talk page determines what goes into and comes out of the article.

Um...pardon me for not being clear enough, Gothean. I am explaining my POV in regards to the neutrality or bias of an article or statement. You can choose to see the clear statements or not. To try and 'convince' anyone implies a bias towards one postion or another. I am taking the POV in favor of neutrality, which you yourself should be aiming at, as an editor of WP.

Only neutral language makes it in, unless it is a direct and attributable quote to the source of the entry. Not a campaign manager. Not what someone else said about them (unless it is a finding of fact or law, etc.) Being 'convinced' to act in a neutral matter implies that the person needing convincing isn't being very neutral.

''I am justfollowing the rules as set up by WP:RS. WP:RS says no such thing. You are attempting to create new policy on the fly. I suggest you discuss your issues at WP:RS or some other policy page rather than here. — goethean ॐ 23:25, 31 October 2006 (UTC)

Thanks for the advice. However, I actually read up on the subject before posting, not just WP:RS. And my suppositions are based solely upon how caution needs to be exercised when citing from sources of a partisan or political nature. In addition, I felt it unnecessary to mention how neutrality is upheld by the first two pillars of Wikipedia. You know quite well through your own experience with others that a failure to act with neutrality usually gets folks all het up, and editwars usually result. I am merely suggesting that the sources cited are from a NEUTRAL source (and not some (PAC or candidate's website), and that sources not directly connected to the subject of the entry do not get included, since they cannot be verified to have come from the subject's own mouth.Arcayne 02:29, 1 November 2006 (UTC)
I noted your suggestion last week, and responded that what the subject's campaign does and says is plenty notable to an article on the subject. There have been many editors working on this article over the past six months, all of whom have upheld the addition of campaign comments to the article. You are the first to voice this particular concern. Since no one has assented with you – on the contrary, multiple voices from all sides have voiced their opposition to your suggestion – it is clear that your proposal does not have the consensus of this discussion page behind it. So if you want to continue to pursue it, I suggest that you take it up on a Wikipedia policy page. — goethean ॐ 14:54, 1 November 2006 (UTC)

With all due respect, Goethean, you have been the only one to have any serious arguments with such. Of the people who responded (aside from yourself), one was seeking clarification and the other was wondering about the difficulty of such. I am unsure as to your reference of "multiple voices from all sides." There has only been one significant voice arguing that a call for neutrality is unwarranted, yours. The matter is being discussed on the policy page; that being said, it doesn't remove the need to be neutral here, where the litmus test of neutrality is conducted each day through peer revision. As well, it is not at all the first time that this matter has come up, either for this specific entry, or on others. You have even been involved in a great many of these same sorts of arguments. This is not an attack; it is an observation.

Clearly, the inclusion of second-hand information is cause for pause. We should not care as to the liability of a candidate's media handlers to their candidate. The only thing that should mater - I repeat, the ONLY thing - is to verify that what we are documenting are actual, factual statements about the candidate whose name is on the entry, If you are so inclined, you should feel free to include an entry for the campaign manager, whose comments you are so keen to include. After all, they are the campaign manager's statements, and not the candidate's. Again, by allowing the inclusion of statements that clearly cast in a positive light a candidate you have previously personally endorsed, you are proceeding down a slippery slope wherein far less-reputable folk can use the doorway you demand be open to cause serious damage to specific political entries immediately before an election.

Example: let's say that tomorrow, som eone posts a citable source (an obviously biased or partisan, swiftboat-like source) that says either one candidate or the other is being investigated by the FBI's Financial Crimes Unit. It does not matter if the allegation is true (and the citation may be purged right before the polls close), but the damage will have been done. People who read WP for a heads up on the candidates (there actually are people who put this off until the last moment) will see the erroneous comment and make a decision based upon that. Before you can say 'Florida Recount,' WP has unwittingly helped unscrupulous people to alter the results of an election.

I guess I am not understanding how wikilawyering (this is not policy, etc.) is a proper justification for avoiding neutrality and lending credence to unsubstantiated statements. This is why I discuss this matter here - we are the front line of neutral documentation. Heresay is for articles about Wham! reunions and Lost episodes, where the stakes are not nearly as high. WP cannot alter whether there is a Wham! reunion, nor can it likley alter the episodic content of Lost. It is entirely conceivable that it can alter the course of an election, and WP needs to protect its reputation and neutrality from bias.Arcayne 18:56, 1 November 2006 (UTC)

Please don't call my references to policy wikilawyering -- they are not. References to policy are necesary because people cannot always agree on what is neutral. I have used newspapers and primary sources in these articles, not blogs. If a newspaper reports swiftboat-like charges, they can be added here. If not, not. That's WP policy, regardless of your theorizing about perfect neutrality. — goethean ॐ 19:37, 1 November 2006 (UTC)
With all due respect, Goethean, you have been the only one to have any serious arguments with such.
Here. Here. These are both of the other major contributors to this article. The other major contributor, User:Tdl1060, hasn't responded AFAIK. — goethean ॐ 19:41, 1 November 2006 (UTC)
. While I appreciate the sentiment about my 'theories,' neutrality is not altogether a difficult term to assess. If an editor repeatedly quotes/cites sources that are uniformly either biased or flawed in their accuracy, or simply non-existent, then it is quite possible that they are sifting through sources for one that agrees with their viewpoint, or are simply not making the effort to find pure news. If an editor continually uses biased language to characterize a candidate's (or their opponent's) actions or words that are not direct quotes, it is quite likley that the editor is harboring a pre-existing bias for/against the entry they are editing. It is by no means the definition of neutral. When an editor defends their bias through semantics, it is a diversionary tactic, ie. wikilawyering.
. As for the "primary sources" you have cited, no fewer than three have been found to be either a dramatic paraphrasing, come from sources like blogs or news analyses (and failing the litmus test of neutrality), or simply do not exist. I am sure that these are simply mistakes, but since you saw fit to defend your sources, I felt it prudent to point out the errors of that particular statement. You will note that in every single one of my edits, not one of them can be called into question for neutrality. Poor spelling and grammar issues, perhaps. :)
. I am not going to go back and forth with you on this (as it is only a diversionary tactic that detracts freom the issue at hand), and I did not point out your semantic wikilawyering to upset you. I was pointing out that the spirit of the 5 Pillars is just as important as the letter of the 5 Pillars. Neutrality is our business. It is not some grandiose theory - it is clearly stated in black and white. The bias of some of your entries has been pointed out before by numerous people before I ever became a member. I would suggest that you need to have a nice cup of tea and sit down.Arcayne 20:11, 1 November 2006 (UTC)
I would have to agree. The over reliance on Krol, an opinion columnist mind you, not a journalist, as well as the contribution section makes this read like an entry from MYDD. I am also concerned with the contribution sections, it looks too much like a lot of WP:NOR to me. I think the article needs a tag until these issues are addressed. Torturous Devastating Cudgel 20:52, 2 November 2006 (UTC)
Krol is not a columnist. He is a reporter. — goethean ॐ 21:00, 2 November 2006 (UTC)
http://www.dailyherald.com/opinion/krol.asp note that bewtween ".com/" and "/krol", it says opinion. Torturous Devastating Cudgel 21:04, 2 November 2006 (UTC)
He also writes lots of news articles for the Daily Herald. — goethean ॐ 21:09, 2 November 2006 (UTC)
Arcayne has illustrated these issues as well as I could have. And as far as I can tell none of it has been addressed. Torturous Devastating Cudgel 21:45, 2 November 2006 (UTC)

I think that Gothean is right here; Krol is in fact a journalist. albeit primarily as an article writer and commentator. I think what I took issue with was the fact that his news analysis was not a good source to draw from, as commentary is very often biased enough that it is difficult to separate fact from supposition. I was arguing for better sources of citation (WP:RS). It may take a bit more work, and a head for maintaining NPOV, but the end product is really worth it. I appreciate your words of support, TDC. Rock on, Mister Man. Rock on.Arcayne 01:31, 3 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Rationale for NPOV tag

Torturous Devastating Cudgel, I kindly ask you spell out in detail your rationale for tagging the article with a NPOV warning. Otherwise, how can I, or any other user, collaborate with you. Thank you. Propol 21:51, 2 November 2006 (UTC)

I agree, TDC. The collaborative spirit that needs to prevail here is sometimes hard to maintain (I have flunked this particular coolness a few times, to my regret). I am not suggesting that you aren't being cooperative or anything like that. I am glad that you agree with me. If you have a way to expand upon my views, so that those who don't understand (or maybe simply don't share them) can finally get what I am perhaps not explaining well enough. We need to discuss changes before we make them (again, I made the noob mistake of doing this). Otherwise, you risk an edit war, which is the biggest waste of time since Paris Hilton.  :D Arcayne 01:40, 3 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Endorsement

I added a new bit of info regarding the VFW endorsement of Roskam. However, I think I screwed up the link to the citation. Can someone offer a heads-up on how to fix it?Arcayne 23:10, 3 November 2006 (UTC) The citation netaddress is: [[1]]Arcayne 23:11, 3 November 2006 (UTC)

This article needs to be reorganized a bit. We really shouldn't have sections which detail a bunch of random events in chronological order. If we must have a quote from every paper which endorsed Duckworth, then the endorsements should be grouped together thematically instead of a section which says "on october 15 this happened. On October 23 this happened." Gamaliel 21:31, 6 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Coli

There is no dispute that there are issues concerning Coli. The question is that does a discussion of those issues belong here? A good comparison would be Tom Delay. There are citations for articles discussing both Roskam and Delay's criminal charges. The citations for Coli do not mention both Roskam and Coli's issues together, therefore a connection is either original research or perilously close to it. Gamaliel 22:48, 6 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] This article is Bias

I don't agree, the tag for {{TotallyDisputed}} should be added now.. since the time for election is here and there are untruths, as for example this...

Education

In the 1990s, according to the Daily Herald, Roskam supported three different state legislative plans to ban books from schools: one to ban the textbook series "impressions" from Arlington Heights schools, another to ban books that "expressly counsels for suicide" and a third to allow local juries to determine whether a book is obscene.[38] Opponents have maintained that the legislation would force the removal of classics like Romeo and Juliet, Little House on the Prairie, and It's a Wonderful Life from classrooms.[39]

This is absolutly untruth, due to the distortion of this event, that happen so long ago and is is mis quoted and mis-understood. I to say that peter wanted to ban Romeo and Juliet, Little House on the Prairie, and It's a Wonderful Life from classrooms, when this are just quoted bits in side a book about the joys of Suicide is a lie.

This and other issues, I have with this article and the tag should remain, until they are disucssed.

The fact that you so keen to remove it in light of my concerns, is contray to the policies of Wikipdia as I understand the.69.220.184.133 22:22, 7 November 2006 (UTC)

Thank you for your comments. The information in the "education" section is footnoted with reliable sources. Are you contenting that the sources are being interpreted incorrectly or that the sources are inaccurate? If it is the latter, please provide sources of your own that contradict the ones used in the article. We cannot simply dismiss these sources as inaccurate without some reliable information that they are in fact inaccurate.
I have removed the "totally disputed" tag and replaced it with a section NPOV tag for the education section as you have only identified that one as a problem. Gamaliel 22:31, 7 November 2006 (UTC)

Is this a gang bang are are we going to talk???? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.220.184.133 (talk • contribs)

I thought we were talking. You identified the problem, I asked for more information. Gamaliel 22:36, 7 November 2006 (UTC)

This is not talk.... it's bully boy thuggery... I don't agree and you are wrong. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.220.184.133 (talk • contribs)

I suspect we're dealing with indefinitely banned user Joehazelton here. Thanks. Propol 22:47, 7 November 2006 (UTC)
I don't know...this one seems even less articulate. — goethean ॐ 22:52, 7 November 2006 (UTC)
Easy there, Goethean. there is the most infinitesimal of chances that this is someone else, so let's not be all mean to the new user with the paranoiac delusions of grandeur. :) Arcayne 03:43, 9 November 2006 (UTC)
It's most peculiar that the election results of November 7 weren't posted in the article until December 17 -- and they had to be posted by me, a complete newcomer to the article. One might get the impression that the principal editors of this article were reluctant to admit that Duckworth had lost. Please don't remove my statements, Goethean. Respond to them or ignore them if you choose, but don't delete them. Whether I'm logged in or not when I post them, they're my statements, not yours; and they don't violate any Wikipedia rule, regulation, policy or principle. Thank you. -- BryanFromPalatine
Oh, by the way: Joehazelton had a point. This article clearly violated WP:NPOV throughout the entire campaign, and it still does. No doubt about it: you've been getting a great deal of this content from direct mailers by Tammy Duckworth and the DCCC. -- BryanFromPalatine 03:23, 20 December 2006 (UTC)
I suspect that the editors have used this article as a vehicle for bashing Roskam for political purposes during the election. Now that the election is over and they've failed to prevent Roskam from getting elected, they're not interested any more. Are you there, editors? Are you paying any attention at all? If I start editing this into a balanced, NPOV article, are you going to start flipping out and making accusations? -- BryanFromPalatine 12:43, 20 December 2006 (UTC)
Just look at who edits and how they edit and see the POV which is far from NPOV. What is taking place is a WP:OWN situation, here this wikigang is protecting this article and using bulling, wikilaweyering, and other intimidations to keep others out and protecting the negative point of view which the Peter Roskam Article now has. This article should be tagged with “NPOV in Dispute”. 199.67.138.42 17:57, 22 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Peter Roskam editing

I don't like the accusation of a ban user. goethean, you have no reason or proof of this and you assertion would be constituted as a violation of WP:CIVIL WP:AGF

Your refusing to discuss, in reasonable terms, with out invoking some unfounded charge is troublesome.

Stop it.192.193.220.141 21:30, 14 November 2006 (UTC)

I will block any editor who engages in the sort of behavior that got Joehazelton banned, no need to worry about that, so please let's not assume every single anonymous editor is Joehazelton. Let's assume good faith and treat every editor with respect. Gamaliel 21:46, 14 November 2006 (UTC)

Let's assume good faith, and treat every anonynous editor with respect... fine words unless they are enforced? Gamaliel, how about telling that to Propol.199.67.138.42 15:28, 16 November 2006 (UTC)

Propol reads this page, he can see my comments just fine. AGF means we must treat new editors with respect and not assume the worst of motives, but it does not apply to obvious sockpuppets who pretend to be new users while immediately attacking the same people and making the same edits. Just concentrate on the article and leave the personalities out of it, whether you are a new user or an old one. Gamaliel 15:35, 16 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Peter Roskam's religion

I first found Peter Roskam's biography through the entry on the Evangelical Covenant Church, where he is listed as a notable member. The article itself, however, lists him both as a Presbyterian and a member of the Anglican Mission in America. These cannot all be true simultaneously. Does anyone know where he actually goes to church?

The only religion I could find in an outside source is Anglican [2], so I listed him as such in the infobox instead of Presbyterian.--Tdl1060 20:07, 28 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] external link

There is an anti-Roskam blog at [3]. Can it be added to the external links? — goethean ॐ 22:11, 19 January 2007 (UTC)

Blog links are #11 on Wikipedia's Links normally to be avoided.--Tdl1060 22:22, 19 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] How many pages of voting record will there be?

The issue here is not whether this information is notable but is this information conforms to the stated wiki policy of what Wikipedia is not. Wikipedia is not a collection of facts or other long lists of minutia. Are we going to fill this article with pages and pages of every vote this man makes for the next two years? Obviously, this is not what Wikipedia is and policy states this very clearly on their WP:NOT http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:What_Wikipedia_is_not#Wikipedia_is_not_an_indiscriminate_collection_of_information

Also, his voting record can be found other places and easily linked here as not to fill this article with again reams and reams and reams of Mr. Roskam's voting histories which began can be found easily here. http://projects.washingtonpost.com/congress/members/r000580/

Also, as customary, the editor should discuss first before making changes. It has been the tendency, as observed by this editor, that some feel that they can add or change unilaterally to this article with out discussion.128.241.41.58 13:16, 24 January 2007 (UTC)

Please sign in / create an account if necessary. We have had numerous problems on this page with sock puppets and anonymous IP addresses. It will help your credibility if you do.
I will not get an an account. I did not need to get an account as well as it's not required to have one and I wish to remain anonymous regards to this subject. The credibility of my edits will be determined strictly on the logic of my arguments and not necessarily as a result of whether my reputation is acceptable to you or anybody else here. My reputation as to whether I'm a sock puppet or not is not relevant. The only thing relevant again, is whether my arguments are logicical under fair and reasonable discussion. So please, do not tried to intimidate me and bully me off this article as you have with many other editors in in the past. This is not what Wikipedia is all about128.241.41.58 15:10, 24 January 2007 (UTC)
I reverted your deletion. Detailing three Congressional votes does not constitute an excessive list. The votes listed are likely to be defining and will be future campaign issues. Proper and reliable sources are cited. Please leave them. Thank you. Propol 13:57, 24 January 2007 (UTC)
Please don't refer to my proper, correct and document edits as vandalism. The problem we have here is not just three listings of his vote but a slippery slope of how large this list of his voting record of his voting record will will grow on this article and the establishment of precedent as to whether this list will grow and will never end on this article which is a biography and not a list of his voting record. That's the issue. Also, your contention that your edits are reliable reliable and proper is not at issue here. The issue, again, is his voting list, which constitutes excessive lists which I legitimately disagree with you on this point. And again please don't refer to my legitimate edits as vandalism.128.241.41.58 14:59, 24 January 2007 (UTC)
I am afraid I will have to agree with the anon. The man has been in office less than a month and you have already listed 3 votes. Did you also list votes of the other 434 members in their respective articles? Whether or not they are "defining and will be future campaign issues" is pure speculation. I am sure that Rep. Roskam's 2008 opponent will address his voting record in due time. This is not the place for long lists of information that are available elsewhere. --rogerd 17:23, 24 January 2007 (UTC)

Perhaps the editors of this article should form a consensus about how to decide which votes should be recorded in this article. Clearly "none" or "all" are not satisfactory answers to the question of which votes to document. Gamaliel 17:36, 24 January 2007 (UTC)

I feel it is approprioate to document significant votes in the political positions section of the article as long as it doesn't get too excessive, which I have seen on other congressmen's artcles when its given its own section.--Tdl1060 17:49, 24 January 2007 (UTC)

I see no reason to limit the length of the text in regards to Roskam's voting record. This information is actually at least as relevant to Roskam's biography as the info on his congressional campaign. — goethean ॐ 18:16, 24 January 2007 (UTC)

I agreee with the reason to limit the lenght of text in regards to the Roskam article. I have to agree with Tdl1060 and disagree with goethean that we are not limited the votes, but that list will soon become very large and unwieldy also it should be noted that wikipeida is not a repostory huge stacks of of lists, links and other disjointed miscellaneous information. The focus of this article should be the bioagraphy of this living person and as such, should be limited to only pertinent facts about this person. For a complete listing of his voting record... that can be found in the Washington Post voting record link which is found below in this article. A careful reading of wiki policy regarding what Wikipedia is not WP:NOT would be in order to comply with the goals of WP:NPOV and WP:BLP.Walleyeone 02:46, 25 January 2007 (UTC)
I'm not saying that we should put a limit on the number of votes listed, just that it should be only key votes and in the context of the political positions section as was done with some of his votes in the State Senate.--Tdl1060 18:38, 24 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Removal of unverified and poorly sourced allegation

The paragraphs regarding the alleged investigation in 1992, which was over 15 years ago by Illinois attorney general and Internal Revenue Service for allegedly failing to report campaign contributions. I have removed this entry do to the lack of reliable and verifiable sources to justify this entry see WP:BLP, WP:VERIFY. The only basis of this entry was an old campaign website which is no longer available and as such this alleged allegation and investigation cannot be easily verified. Furthermore, if the other other editors absolutely insist on having this old and non-notable event, which had taken place over 15 years ago, these other editors must provide information to the outcome of this charge, which logically had been completely investigated and in all likelihood these allegations were dropped. In the end, this event happened a long time ago and as such is a minor and non-notable event in this persons life and should should not be listed gives undue weight to this allegation.Walleyeone 22:38, 25 January 2007 (UTC)

Hello Walleyeone, and welcome to Wikipedia! — goethean ॐ 22:41, 25 January 2007 (UTC)
HelloWalleyeone 23:25, 25 January 2007 (UTC)
Walleyeone, you were right to remove the poorly sourced material, but all editors also have a responsibility to ensure that the article is complete and neutral. This means that while editors have a responsibility to source material they insert into articles, it also means that other editors have a responsibility to participate in writing and researching the article instead of just acting as a veto for material they dislike. Despite your claim that it "cannot be easily verified", a quick database search that took me as long as it probably took you to write the above paragraph proved that this "alleged investigation" actually happened: ROSKAM CHARITY FLAP PROBE GOES TO IRS Chicago Tribune October 29, 1992 Author: Rick Pearson. Gamaliel 23:32, 25 January 2007 (UTC)
{comments by banned user removed}
The Illinois attorney general's office has given copies of its investigation of Peter Roskam, the Republican candidate for the 40th House District, to the Internal Revenue Service to see if Roskam's campaign has violated federal charitable tax laws.
In a letter to the IRS, the attorney general's office said its investigation has found links between Roskam's campaign and the Glen Ellyn-based Educational Assistance Limited (EAL) where he is executive director.
"In the course of our investigation, we have discovered that in 1991 EAL did, in fact, engage in political campaign activity by contributing several residential mailing lists to the `Friends of Peter Roskam' political committee," James Carroll, first assistant attorney general, wrote to the IRS.
Source: Chicago Tribune, Chicago, Ill.
Author: Rick Pearson.
Date: Oct 29, 1992
Start Page: 2
Section: DU PAGE
Text Word Count: 399
Propol 06:33, 26 January 2007 (UTC)
P.S. Democratic Atty. Gen. Roland Burris' office began conducting its investigation into Roskam's campaign after complaints were raised by his opponents in the March REPUBLICAN primary. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Propol (talk • contribs) 06:43, 26 January 2007 (UTC).
{comments by banned user removed}
More new users just happening to stop by the Peter Roskam article! Wow. — goethean ॐ 15:58, 26 January 2007 (UTC)
He does have a point, however, though one delivered in an insulting manner. The material should not be restored until a good faith effort has been made to research the outcome of this investigation. Gamaliel 16:57, 26 January 2007 (UTC)
He or she. Remember, we have no idea who we are dealing with here. — goethean ॐ 17:41, 26 January 2007 (UTC)
Of course. Silly me, what was I thinking? Gamaliel 18:28, 26 January 2007 (UTC)

{attacks from banned user removed}

[edit] We have now been joined by the mysterious 75.132.141.231

75.132.141.231 apparently understands the meaning of WP:NPOV with his very first edit, but incorrectly applies it. His reversions are in violation of not only WP:NPOV#Undue_weight, but also WP:BLP. Anyone can file a frivolous lawsuit against a public figure like Pete Roskam. But until the allegations have been proven in a court of law, they do not belong in an encyclopedia article about him. Dino 23:05, 4 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] And we have also been joined by the mysterious 202.190.132.123

Strangely enough, here we have another anonymous IP vandal who knows all about NPOV but applies it incorrectly. The modus operandi is identical. I am reverting this POV-pushing which violates WP:NPOV. Dino 02:39, 5 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Free Republic claims

Hi Dino - I decided to pay a visit here in response to your claim on the Free Republic talk page : "Freepers were instrumental in helping Peter Roskam beat Tammy Duckworth three months ago, bucking the national trend." I couldn't find anything about it in the article! (but it does look like it needs some fresh input, so I think I'll stay). Could you point me in right direction concerning FR's instrumental help in Roskam's victory? (it should be here in this article, shouldn't it be?) Thanks. - Fairness & Accuracy For All 03:19, 5 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Rape and incest exceptions

Rape and incest exceptions are a standard question in the debate on this topic in the USA and are material to understanding his position. --BenBurch 06:00, 5 February 2007 (UTC)

I agree. I added them back to the article. I will revert any future deletions of the topic. Peter Roskam has been very clear that he makes no exceptions for cases of rape or incest. In fact there are television interviews (such as on Public Affairs) where Roskam directly states his position. There's no way to dispute it, and it is clearly notable. Propol 06:04, 5 February 2007 (UTC)
Find the exact date of that program, please, and we can cite it. --BenBurch 06:11, 5 February 2007 (UTC)
This would appear to be the debate in question; Is this what you mean, Propol? http://web.mac.com/t.tang/iWeb/PublicAffairs/Podcasts/DF05EDED-CA84-45EC-8BFC-87E9CA2DED1C.html --BenBurch 06:52, 5 February 2007 (UTC)

No, the exception is notable, not the exclusion of an exception. This is the equivalent of Willie Horton death penalty adds and implies that he supports babies from rape or incest and is a BLP issue. Example: "Michael Dukakis is against the death penalty." vs. "Michael Dukakis is opposed to the death penalty even if the killer tortures and rapes children." Please. Drop it. Tbeatty 06:21, 5 February 2007 (UTC)

No, this is part of the standard debate in this country. I can cite you MANY politicians who specifically make exceptions in the case of rape or incest. He makes no such exception and has said so. I am in fact surprised that he makes an exception where the life of the mother is at stake as the Roman Catholic Church makes no such exception, and this strikes me as a more consistent and principled stand. But when one is comparing politicians, this is one of the metrics commonly used. It is every bit as much a part of the standard political discourse in the USA as immigration issues or taxes. Unless you can show me that it is not, I don't see how you will convince me that this does not belong here. --BenBurch 06:28, 5 February 2007 (UTC)
And you can include it when they make the exception, just not when they don't make an exception as that is consistent with Original Research or BLP libel. Look at the Willie Horton case. Dukakis even answered the questions when his wife was given as the victim but htat would not be relevant to his position on the death penalty. Dukakis wouldn't make an exception when the rape/murder victim was his wife. Principled? yes. relevant to his stand on the death penalty? No and the question was roundly denounced. "Dukakis is opposed to the death penalty and wouldn't even make an exception for someone who raped and murdered his wife." It's factual. Even relevant as it was in a presidential debate. But isn't a really part of his death penalty stance. He is simply against it. I can name many politicians who oppose the death penalty except for murderers who also commit rape, multiple murders, child murders, etc. Describing their position in terms of their non-exceptions is not notable and an attempt to slander/libel them.

Here are common positions on abortion.

Opposed to abortion in all cases.
Opposed to abortion except for the life of the mother.
Opposed to abortion except for the life of the mother or rape or incest.
Opposed to abortion except for the health of the mother, rape or incest..
Opposed to abortion except for the health of the mother, rape, incest or congenital disease.
(health of the mother used to be a legitimate anti-abortion stance but has recently changed when abortion providers said they would certify condition of "pregancy" as a health risk thereby making it moot).

Abortion on demand at any time prior to birth.
Abortion on demand up to the third trimester.
abortion on demand except for girls under the age of consent.
etc, etc.

Now it would be POV to mix the non-exceptions with exceptions to create teh appearance of judgement by augmenting it with the non-exceptions. The death penalty example has the same type of debate with most states including "aggravating factors" which include rape or the killing of a child as necessary for capital punishment. It is POV to add those non-exceptions to the description of his position. Please don't Willie Horton that line and keep his position as simple and correct as possible. It is an editorial comment, while possibly factual, is not encyclopedic and doesn't clarify his position. It's simply a way to inject POV.

An example from the other side: "Hilda X supports abortion rights up until the third trimester making no exception for procedures that partially deliver the fetus and removing its brain jsut prior to delivery." This would certainly be factual and include reference to an ongoing debatable point on partial birth abortions yet it would inject POV into the statement. It simply doesn't belong. It is Willie Horton politics and it should not be a part of Wikipedia. --Tbeatty 07:25, 5 February 2007 (UTC)

Note : Roskam's campaign site even uses content with 'rape, incest, life of the mother.' "Pankau, who has been in the legislature a dozen years, said she is a conservative whose views include opposition to abortion, except in cases of rape, incest or if the life of the mother is in jeopardy." Roskam for congress Why do some Roskam supporters seem so intent on HIDING his views on abortion? You think HE'S ashamed of them as some here appear to be? I don't.- Fairness & Accuracy For All 12:01, 5 February 2007 (UTC)
If you read my post, or acutally, if you understood my post, listing exceptions is fine especially when the candidate defines themselves that way. Listing non-exceptions is not acceptable in encyclopedia articles as it is a from of campaigning. It's a push poll. Wikipeida is not a campaign. "Michael Dukakis opposes the death penalty and makes no exception for furloughed rapists who rape and murder women and children even his own wife." That's on tape but it is not an acceptable way to declare his position on the death penalty because he would never frame it that way. --Tbeatty 15:20, 5 February 2007 (UTC)
  • Respectfully, but your (Tbeatty's) argument appears to be a special pleading. Among politicians, not making an exception in the case of rape or incest in really quite exceptional, and is most often noted as such. --BenBurch 10:03, 5 February 2007 (UTC)
Tbeatty, I suspect that because Tammy Duckworth has been elevated to the status of a martyr by the anti-war left, the Peter Roskam article has been targeted for POV pushing. Due to this effort, any negative information about him that can be gathered is being put into the article, in violation of WP:NPOV#Undue_weight and WP:BLP. Dino 09:52, 5 February 2007 (UTC)
Er.... Dino, she would have to be DEAD to be a 'martyr'....Look up the word... M A R T Y R.... Like David Koresh and Timothy McVeigh are to y'all in the the Freeper / Black Helicopter / NWO crowd. - Fairness & Accuracy For All 11:55, 5 February 2007 (UTC)
Er....FAAFA... I did look it up. Look at the definition in wiktionary. If you look at this, you will see the 2nd def is "a person who sacrifices something of great value and especially life itself for the sake of principle", and the 3rd is "VICTIM; especially : a great or constant sufferer <a martyr to asthma all his life -- A. J. Cronin>" or how --rogerd 13:55, 5 February 2007 (UTC)
I know of NOBODY other than a few of her hard-core campaign workers who think she is anything other than a politician who lost (this time) and who will make a great Congressperson in 2008. The concept that there are people wailing and gnashing their teeth over this is, well, nutty. --BenBurch 14:10, 5 February 2007 (UTC)

It is not a special pleading. Rape and incest IS a common EXCEPTION. But it is not listed as a non-exception as this is POV pushing and campaigning. The non-exceptions are only listed by political opponents trying define their opponents. Listing the non-ecxeptions is a Willie Horton tactic that doesn't belong in articles in Wikipedia. His exception is "life of the mother". That's it. If a candidate's exception was "health of the mother" we wouldn't add what that didn't include. You see that crap in campaign literature, not encyclopedia articles. Tbeatty 15:15, 5 February 2007 (UTC)

I disagree. Roskam's hardline stance on abortion is highly notable. Is the source cited for this material campaign literature, or a newspaper article? — goethean ॐ 15:21, 5 February 2007 (UTC)
Like David Koresh and Timothy McVeigh are to y'all in the the Freeper / Black Helicopter / NWO crowd.
First, I am not a member of any "Black Helicopter/NWO" crowd. Second, David Koresh and Timothy McVeigh are no more "martyrs" to me than John Wayne Gacy (a Democratic precinct committeeman in Chicago) and Ted Kaczynski (the Unabomber) are "martyrs" to you. Kindly refrain from such specious associations.
I know of NOBODY other than a few of her hard-core campaign workers who think she is anything other than a politician who lost ...
Then you may wish to read this: "The protests reportedly included mock caskets and signs which said 'Maimed for Lies' and 'Enlist here and die for Halliburton.' " Picket signs with "Maimed for Lies" at anti-war protests are obvious attempts to make martyrs out of people like Tammy Duckworth. There's also the effort to make an issue out of Roskam's "cut and run" remark, reminding us that Duckworth served in Iraq and lost both legs, while Roskam never served in the military. Again, it is an effort to make a martyr out of Tammy Duckworth.
The concept that there are people wailing and gnashing their teeth over this is, well, nutty.
The concept is yours, sir. Not mine. Dino 18:30, 5 February 2007 (UTC)
I'll interpret that statement as indicating that you have zero evidence to back up your accusation of bad faith. Please assume good faith. — goethean ॐ 18:36, 5 February 2007 (UTC)
The 'cut and run' remark was highly controversial. The controversy was thoroughly covered in the local press. Failure to mention this in the Roskam article would constitute POV. — goethean ॐ 18:38, 5 February 2007 (UTC)
It was covered nationally too. I remember it well. It wasn't as big as George Allen and 'Macaca' but serious enough that it made the network nightly news and shows like 'Hardball' - Fairness & Accuracy For All 21:04, 5 February 2007 (UTC)
  • Tbeatty - Sorry, you've not convinced me. Sincerely, --BenBurch 18:43, 5 February 2007 (UTC)
Somebody removed this section again, and I reverted it back in. Please lets attain a consensus and not edit war here? --BenBurch 21:21, 5 February 2007 (UTC)
Consensus has not been attained in support of such a phrase. Just compare this article with the Melissa Bean article. Her article reads like an advertising brochure compared to this one. Her position on the issue of abortion is not picked apart in the same way. The same can be said of any Democratic member of Congress you'd care to name. The burden of showing consensus is on the shoulders of those trying to put the material in. Dino 21:36, 5 February 2007 (UTC)
Please don't compare apples and oranges. If you have an issue with the Melissa Bean page, take your concerns there. This phrase belongs here and there is no consensus to remove it. It is true. It is notable because it is so exceptional. --BenBurch 21:40, 5 February 2007 (UTC)
You may compare any Democratic "orange" of your choice to this Republican "orange." The observation remains the same: no Democratic member of Congress has his or her positions on the issue of abortion picked apart in this manner. Dino 21:43, 5 February 2007 (UTC)
If that is the case, why don't you go to those articles and pick them apart like that? I think more clarity would improve them. --BenBurch 21:55, 5 February 2007 (UTC)
I'll tell you why I don't go to the other articles and pick their abortion positions apart: it isn't fair to the subjects of the articles. Please review WP:BLP. This is an encyclopedia. The articles about Democrats handle the abortion issue in a responsible and encyclopedic way. This one does not. If you can show me an article about one Democrat in Congress which specified before today that he or she supports abortion rights, even including partial birth abortion (or some other specific category of abortions), then you may have a point. Dino 22:35, 5 February 2007 (UTC)
Odd.... your 'brother' liked that John Wayne Gacy argument too, and repeatedly tried to add it to the article on the Democratic party. You guys are soooo similar, it's almost like you're the same person! Twins? - Fairness & Accuracy For All 23:53, 5 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Campaign finance issues

Furthermore, no Democratic member of Congress has his or her legal campaign contributions from law-abiding citizens picked apart in this manner. I have removed the dissection of legal contributions from specific law-abiding donors. The cumulative effects of out-of-state and out-of-district donors and PAC donors are notable, however. Please read WP:NPOV, specifically WP:NPOV#Undue_weight, and WP:BLP. Wikipedia cannot be perceived as siding with Roskam's critics. Dino 21:52, 5 February 2007 (UTC)

I am removing a non-notable attempt at guilt by association. This is an attempt to insert an absolutely irrelevant scandal (Foley) into this article. Legal campaign donations by law-abiding people such as Dennis Hastert are not notable. Dino 12:10, 6 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Criticized for yellow page ad.

True and notable. And not just his opponent was critical of it, looks like the columnist was too! And essential to understanding the character of this politician. --BenBurch 06:13, 5 February 2007 (UTC)

Here is the ad; Image:Roskam Yellowpages Ad.png --BenBurch 06:48, 5 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] WP:CIVIL

To all new editors, please do not import edit wars from other articles to this one and please do not throw out accusations of bias or POV editing. Dial it back and make your case without insults. Uncivil behavior will not be tolerated. Thank you. Gamaliel 19:48, 5 February 2007 (UTC)

Thank you. I think we can make this a good article if people will keep their heads. --BenBurch 20:32, 5 February 2007 (UTC)
Hi Gamaliel - I found this article SOLELY because of Dino's claims on the talk page of another article. "Freepers were instrumental in helping Peter Roskam beat Tammy Duckworth three months ago, bucking the national trend." I searched but couldn't find anything about this in the article. I asked Dino to document his claim ('instrumental' is a very bold claim) but he ignored me. After reading the article and discussion, I think I'll stay. (please see your talk page for proof of my assertion) I will try to 'dial it back' a little as you suggested though. - Fairness & Accuracy For All 21:23, 5 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Campaign funding sources

I think keeping Mark Foley money *is* notable given the national feeding frenzy in the media over this scandal. --BenBurch 21:25, 5 February 2007 (UTC)

No discussion AT ALL? I see that the material has already been reverted back, so I think we have consensus here. --BenBurch 04:17, 6 February 2007 (UTC)
No discussion AT ALL?
Look above your Yellow Pages ad section. I was discussing it.
... so I think we have consensus here.
No, you don't. It is an attempt at guilt by association. Legal campaign contributions by law-abiding people such as Dennis Hastert are not notable. Wikipedia has a Neutral Point Of View. Edits should not put Wikipedia into the position of being perceived as siding with Roskam's critics. Dino 12:23, 6 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] accurately describing his abortion stance

An article on Henry Hyde clearly stated his position:

  • Hyde said his core view on abortion remains as it always has: Human life in all its forms and shapes and sizes is intrinsically valuable and deserves the protection of law. However, he argues for allowing abortions to save the life of the mother, and his Hyde Amendment allows for exceptions in the cases of rape and incest, even though he finds those two exceptions inconsistent with his own views. link

Why is it that some want to hide Roskam's abortion stance ? I bet he's not embarassed about it, like they seem to be. - Fairness & Accuracy For All 21:44, 5 February 2007 (UTC)

I *know* he is not ashamed of his position. Nothing about his position to be ashamed OF. You can disagree with him, but he is taking a moral stand as he sees fit, and clearly the voters in his district know his position and a majority are comfortable with it. --BenBurch 21:50, 5 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] To do list

Moved to formal to-do box at top of article. --BenBurch 23:35, 5 February 2007 (UTC)

Where? I don't see it! (maybe I need new glasses ;-) - Fairness & Accuracy For All 23:54, 5 February 2007 (UTC)
Above the TOC and the last of the boxes at the top. --BenBurch 00:00, 6 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] TBeatty. Point by point, please.

Point by point, please explain to me how each of the items you reverted fail the "Willie Horton" test? I am trying here to AGF that you really mean this and can justify it, and are not trying to simply banish all criticism from this article. But I simply do not see how any of this was a Willie Horton-like allegation. Now, you explained the rape and incest one, and I and several others disagree with you on that, but please explain the other items you reverted out just now? Thanks! I appreciate you taking the time to explain. --BenBurch 04:58, 6 February 2007 (UTC)

I've already addressed each point and not each one is Willie Horton but the most egregious ones are. NPOV and BLP apply to each and every one. Since the edit summary is only a few characters long I chose the description of inclusion of the non-exception description. --Tbeatty 05:43, 6 February 2007 (UTC)
Okay, I must be slow then, because I don't see it. For example, how is the criticism of the yellowpages ad violating NPOV? Eric Zorn is a well-established writer. Few newspapers on the planet are more established than the Tribune. He (and Duckworth) point out that it is odd to say you will eliminate frivolous lawsuits when you have made a portion of your living soliciting them. And in fact your firm still is soliciting them. The proof of which is the yellowpages ad. You know, lawyers were prohibited from advertising for most of this State's history just to prevent ads like that one. I think it is a RS-V fact that the ad exists. It is an RS-V fact that there was possibly justifiable criticism of it. And it was a notable factor in the recent campaign. Or would you have us write that there were no significant negative issues about Roskam in that campaign? Make this clear to me and I might agree with you, but right now I simply cannot see it. --BenBurch 05:54, 6 February 2007 (UTC)
For the yellow pages add, he was criticized by his opponent, not the author of the source. There was no criticism by the author. He simply highlighted Roskam's opponents quotes. The author actually says that PI lawyers are valuable. But the criticism he leaves to Roskam's opponent. Read the source but don't read into it. The author essentially applauds Roskam's PI work. The fact that he highlighted is not the same as criticising it. If anything he is pointing out hypocrisy, not criticism of the ad. Journalist use these techniques all the time but it is not criticism. The ad does exist. There may be criticism of it but there is no source for it other than his opponents campaign comments which are not reliable for the purposes of an encyclopedia because of the obvious conflict of interest. --Tbeatty 06:12, 6 February 2007 (UTC)
  • Okay, you convinced me on this one. Now explain all of the other objections you have? Thanks --BenBurch 06:22, 6 February 2007 (UTC)
  • He didn't convince me, AT ALL. He just argued on another article that one author's views AREN'T relevent, but now argues that they ARE, but NOT the views of the actual person who ran against Roskam??? Wikilawyering. - Fairness & Accuracy For All 06:26, 6 February 2007 (UTC)
  • Well, my opinion isn't binding on you, of course. If you can find some other criticism of Roskam on this issue, I'd change my position yet again, but for now I am inclined to compromise on this one thing. --BenBurch

[edit] The education edits

The issue of POV and the fact that the aguments are sound should justify the removal of this this entry because it is inflammatory, salacious and violates neutral point of view as well as balance. Again the logic of the Goethean who just can't help but put negative stuff and spin, so as we plod here is the argument- Schools banned Huckleberry Finn just because a school will not allow Playboy magazine on its library shelves just because they reprinted excerpts from the classics or interviews of classic novelists ie. JD Salinger. "Catcher in the Rye"

This is already on the do list posted by fairness and accuracy. If Goethean got has a problem with the removal of this point of view non-neutral, inflammatory entry, then he should discusse it instead unilaterally removing it and blowing off all the other editors.—Preceding unsigned comment added by 128.241.109.163 (talk • contribs)

Ummm... Your comment does not seem to relate AT ALL to the actual event described here. Can you show me how it does, please? --BenBurch 21:13, 6 February 2007 (UTC)

I was curious about this and looked for more info. "Senate Panel Rejects Ban On Bias Against Gays" Chicago Sun-Times May 6, 1993, Author: John G. O'Brien, Charles N. Wheeler III

A proposal to outlaw material that "expressly counsels for suicide" was rejected by a House judiciary panel. Rep. Peter Roskam (R-Wheaton), the plan's sponsor, said it was designed to protect children from material that would urge them to commit suicide or instruct them how to do it. But the measure also could have made illegal famous films and books that deal with suicide, including "Romeo and Juliet" and "It's a Wonderful Life," said Vans Stevenson, a motion picture industry lobbyist.

It appears the material 128.241.109.163 removed and Goethean reinserted accurately reflects what happened. Roskam did propose to ban material that "expressly counsels for suicide". Opponents of the measure did say it could remove such classic material. That passage fairly and accurately represents news accounts of the proposed legislation. Gamaliel 21:49, 6 February 2007 (UTC)

This citation from the Sun-Times is better than and should replace the one we currently have from Esquire. Thank you, anonymous editor, for bringing this to our attention. — goethean ॐ 21:52, 6 February 2007 (UTC)
Be that the case case, with your logic, we should consider Peter Roskam a book banner then??? Nice, you justify this label "bans books from schools" with all the citations that you present, so be it, but it's still point of view due to its salacious and misleading tone and simplifies the complexity of that issue too convenient label "bans books". To another point of contention, it would be more productive if the administrators should chide Mr.goethean for his continue penchant for labeling reasonable and documented edits as "vandalism". It's not very nice and does not encourage peaceful and civil debate. In other words this editor should show more manners and not be so contentious. I would assume the admonition of Mr.Gamaliel to be "CIVIL" to all and not just to certain people. 128.241.109.163 23:18, 6 February 2007 (UTC)
According to Wikipedia:Glossary#R, "rv" means simply "revert" and not, as you claimed on Goethean's talk page, "wikispeak for reverting vandalism". The abbreviation for a revert due to vandalism is "rvv". Since you are quite obviously a brand new user you would be unfamiliar with this. It is good to see a brand new user like yourself who is very interested in civility, and in the spirit of civility I ask you to retract your accusative statements directed towards Goethean, which I'm sure you will be glad to do given your keen interest in peaceful and civil debate. Gamaliel 23:43, 6 February 2007 (UTC)
As long as RV means that then I will retract that observation. It should be noted that this editor should be better at documenting their edits and since it would appear that Mr Goethean is a "Highly Seasoned" editor he should conform that standard as well.128.241.109.163 00:19, 7 February 2007 (UTC)
Goethan employed a commonly used Wikipedia abbreviation that has been used in thousands, perhaps millions, of edit summaries. You shouldn't blame him because you misunderstood. That does not encourage peaceful and civil debate. Gamaliel 00:25, 7 February 2007 (UTC)
I would be nice if you "READ" what I write.... The issue is not if I mis-understood the abbreviation, the issue, after I retracted my observation as you demanded of me, is that MR Goethen should document his edits better rather then use abbeviations, to fully state his reasons for the changes or his reversions, due to the simple fact I or others can't read his mind. Now, dont read in to my questions and statements more then what is said, as you seem to like to do and make assumtions of my thought process and put words in my mouth and make more issue then it really is.128.241.40.27 09:39, 7 February 2007 (UTC)
One more thing, loose the condescending tone Mr. all-powerful wikiman and focus on this debate. The condescension, which you direct from your statements, are in of themselves uncivil and insulting and demeaning. The attempt, by you to bait and smack, is transparent and an insult to my intelligence. ( this is where the conversation gets one-sided and you Mr. all-powerful wiki man then takes my voice a way, which then you can say all you want without any rebuttal to your claims that I am uncivil and you wonder why I have no respect for you.)
Joe, Joe, Joe, you have no idea how close you came to being unblocked. I was actually considering the threat/unblock demand you posted on the user talk page of one of your many socks, but before making a decision I wanted to see how you’d handle this latest interaction. I figured since you were so obviously in the wrong and the matter itself was so minor that it would give you a chance to show that you were able to graciously concede a point and generally interact with others in the fashion of a mature adult. Instead you spectacularly, hilariously, forehead-smackingly crashed and burned. You attacked another editor for using an abbreviation and then exploded when you were called on it, all the while demanding civility from those you were viciously attacking. If you can’t resist attacking others over trivial matters like abbreviations, you’ve proven yourself incapable of participating in more contentious matters. There is no way I can in good conscience unblock you and allow you free reign to further abuse other editors. This has nothing to do with political solidarity or your conspiratorial imaginings and everything to do with the rules of Wikipedia and the rules of basic human decency, neither of which you appear to comprehend. Do not contact me again demanding to be unblocked unless you are prepared to unconditionally act like a rational adult editor and demonstrate a noticeable improvement in your behavior. You might try ArbCom, as I have suggested to you before, but I imagine they will have less patience for your crap than I have. I've been content to ignore your sockpuppets and allow you to edit this article until you inevitably burst into a rage, but from now on I will block them on sight as per Wikipedia policy regarding banned users. If you don’t want to be “censored”, then all you have to do is behave, but you have proven time and time again that you are incapable of doing so. You will have to settle for the consolation of your new buddies, the cyberstalkers and LaRouche nuts in the misogynist, anti-Semitic cesspool that is Wikipedia Review, people who think calling people's employers and implying they are murderers is fair play in a disagreement over an encyclopedia article. Reading it allows me to imagine what John Siegenthaler must have felt like when he found out he shot both John and Bobby Kennedy; a funhouse mirror world where every minor action is spun in the most sinister way possible, or simply manufactured out of whole cloth. Apparently I'm part of some Zionist conspiracy with other admins I barely know and don’t get along with. Good to know. If these are the kind of people you want to find common cause with, good luck to you. They will provide you with every possible rationalization and conspiratorial explanation for why you were blocked – everything but the obvious truth: you were blocked because you are unable to behave like an adult. These will get you by for the most part, but there will be those moments in the grey of the morning where you know the truth, that you were so immature you started a fight over an abbreviation. Gamaliel 20:03, 7 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Textbook material

"The ads refer to a controversy in Wheaton schools in the early 1990s surrounding a series of textbooks called "Impressions,"... They also contained some writings that some parents believed featured themes of the occult, witchcraft, violence and disrespect for parental authority.'

Here is a discussion of one of the offending pieces - a yarn called "A Wart Snake in a Fig Tree" which is a pardody of 'The Twelve Days of Christmas' but with creepy-crawlies and spiders and snakes and stuff. Ya learn somethin' every day ! I never knew that "My Little Pony" was Anti-God and Pro-Satan! Maybe that's why I became a Devil-worshipping Satanist - too much "My Little Pony" ! LOL! (joke) A Wart Snake in a Fig Tree I wonder what Roskam's stance on Harry Potter and Holloween is? - Fairness & Accuracy For All 09:10, 7 February 2007 (UTC)

You have discussed "one of the offending pieces," but not all of them. I suspect that you have chosen the least offensive piece and presented it here as though it was typical. Dino 15:17, 7 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Abortion issue material

I see that the phrase regarding the rape/incest exception has again been inserted into this article. If any of the editors seeking to defend its presence in the article can produce a link within 72 hours to a Wikipedia article about any Democratic politician, living or dead, whose position on abortion was picked apart in this manner (i.e. "Senator XXXXXX supports the right to abortion, even partial birth abortion") prior to February 4, then I will agree that this phrase belongs in the article.

If no such proof is forthcoming within 72 hours, I will remove the phrase from this article and I expect that to be the end of the matter. Dino 15:14, 7 February 2007 (UTC)

I wasn't aware that Jimmy Wales had died and made you King of Wikipedia. Policy is not created on the fly on obscure talk pages by new members. Furthermore, this is not the talk page for any group of Democratic politicians, and I suggest that if you have complaints about those articles you bring up your complaints in the appropriate place. That Wikipedia does not treat Democratic politicians in a particular way is not a valid argument for removing valid, relevant, well-sourced material from the Roskam article. — goethean ॐ 15:25, 7 February 2007 (UTC)
As an aside, Goethean IMHO it is reprehensible that this article was used as a vehicle for anti-Roskam rhetoric throughout the 2006 campaign season and that only now, after the election is over and Roskam has been sworn in as Congressman for the 6th District, is something approaching NPOV being introduced. Would you please tell everyone how many Duckworth campaign signs you had in your front yard? I had no Roskam signs in mine. I don't even live in the district. Comparisons with the treatment of the same issue in articles about Democratic politicians are very valid. They show that there is an NPOV problem here. Show me proof that even one Democratic politician's position on abortion was dissected in a similar way prior to February 4 and the phrase will stay. Dino 15:28, 7 February 2007 (UTC)
Many reprehensible things happened in the 2006 Sixth District election. Let's document them, shall we? — goethean ॐ 16:00, 7 February 2007 (UTC)
Show me proof that even one Democratic politician's position on abortion was dissected in a similar way prior to February 4 and the phrase will stay.
This is not a valid argument for removing valid, relevant, well-sourced material from this article. — goethean ॐ 16:01, 7 February 2007 (UTC)
It is a very valid argument. It demonstrates with the most crystalline clarity available on Wikipedia that Republican politicians' articles are being written as hatchet jobs, and Democratic politicians' articles are being written as advertising brochures. Side by side comparisons are the acid test of NPOV, sir. Dino 16:37, 7 February 2007 (UTC)
It could just as easily show that articles on Democratic politicians are under-developed. — goethean ॐ 16:40, 7 February 2007 (UTC)
I really don't believe that's the problem. Do you? Dino 16:48, 7 February 2007 (UTC)
I have no idea; I mostly edit religion and philosophy articles. The point is that you have not mounted a valid argument. — goethean ॐ 17:01, 7 February 2007 (UTC)
Much the same could be said for the "global warming" argument: "one man's trend is another man's fluctuation." My argument has a very strong foundation called WP:BLP. Rather than ramping up criticism against the Democrats, picking apart their abortion positions and backing up a truck to dump every criticism that ever found its way into print into their articles, we need to adopt a more neutral approach to Republicans. Not every criticism of Republicans is notable. In fact, very few of them are notable because they usually come from partisan sources, often from self-published sources, and you know what WP:RS says about that. Dino 17:39, 7 February 2007 (UTC)
My argument has a very strong foundation called WP:BLP.
You should quote directly from the linked policy page when alleging that it buttresses your argument. A simple link to that page, without a specific example of an alleged violation is meaningless.
...because they usually come from partisan sources, often from self-published sources...
Throwing out vague allegations without specific references to the article is not helpful. You are beginning to sound like 128.241.40.27. — goethean ॐ 17:50, 7 February 2007 (UTC)

You should quote directly from the linked policy page when alleging that it buttresses your argument. A simple link to that page, without a specific example of an alleged violation is meaningless.

Whatever you say. The following three sections have been reposted from WP:BLP and I encourage you to read them. I have boldfaced the more important passages relevant to the present dispute. Please also take note of my review at the end. Dino

[edit] Remove unsourced or poorly sourced controversial material

Editors should remove any controversial material about living persons that is either unsourced, relies upon sources that do not meet standards specified in Wikipedia:Reliable sources, or is a conjectural interpretation of a source. In cases where the information is derogatory and poorly sourced or unsourced, this kind of edit is an exception to the three-revert rule. These principles apply to biographical material about living persons found anywhere in Wikipedia, including user and talk pages. Administrators may enforce the removal of such material with page protection and blocks, even if they have been editing the article themselves. Editors who re-insert the material may be warned and blocked. See the blocking policy and Wikipedia:Libel.

Administrators encountering biographies that are unsourced and controversial in tone, where there is no NPOV version to revert to, should delete the article without discussion (see Wikipedia:Criteria for speedy deletion criterion G10 for more details).

Jimmy Wales has said:

"I can NOT emphasize this enough. There seems to be a terrible bias among some editors that some sort of random speculative 'I heard it somewhere' pseudo information is to be tagged with a 'needs a cite' tag. Wrong. It should be removed, aggressively, unless it can be sourced. This is true of all information, but it is particularly true of negative information about living persons." [1]

He considers "no" information to be better than "speculative" information and reemphasizes the need for sensitivity:

"Real people are involved, and they can be hurt by your words. We are not tabloid journalism, we are an encyclopedia." [2]

[edit] Reliable sources

Any assertion in a biography of a living person that might be defamatory if untrue must be sourced. Without reliable third-party sources, a biography will violate No original research and Verifiability, and could lead to libel claims.

Information available solely on partisan websites or in obscure newspapers should be handled with caution, and, if derogatory, should not be used at all. Information found in self-published books, zines or websites/blogs should never be used ...

[edit] Biased or malicious content

Editors should be on the lookout for biased or malicious content in biographies or biographical information. If someone appears to be pushing an agenda or a biased point of view, insist on reliable third-party published sources and a clear demonstration of relevance to the person's notability.

The views of critics should be represented if their views are relevant to the subject's notability and are based on reliable sources, and so long as the material is written in a manner that does not overwhelm the article or appear to side with the critics' material. Be careful not to give a disproportionate amount of space to critics, to avoid the effect of representing a minority view as if it were the majority one. If the criticism represents the views of a tiny minority, it has no place in the article.

Content should be sourced to reliable sources and should be about the subject of the article specifically. Beware of positive or negative claims that rely on association.

[edit] Dino says, 'Let's review'

Please take note of what Jimmy Wales has said. Please also take note of the prohibition against self-published and partisan sources. Even if they've been quoted in a source that is reliable on its own merits (such as Eric Zorn columns in the Chicago Tribune), if the reliable source simply quotes and cites a partisan and/or self-published source, the critical material should not be included here.

Furthermore, take note of the bits about "giving a disproportionate amount of space to critics," "overwhelming the article," "appearing to side with the critics' material" and "guilt by association." Throughout the 2006 campaign season, this article was guilty of all four of these violations of WP:BLP. Now that Duckworth partisans no longer have an election to influence, let's try to bring this article into full compliance with both WP:BLP and WP:NPOV, particularly WP:NPOV#Undue_weight.

As I've said, we don't need to be ramping up criticism against Democrats. What we need to be doing is toning it down against Republicans. Thank you for reading this far, and I hope you understand this in the collegial spirit in which it's intended. Dino 18:38, 7 February 2007 (UTC)

Even if they've been quoted in a source that is reliable on its own merits (such as Eric Zorn columns in the Chicago Tribune), if the reliable source simply quotes and cites a partisan and/or self-published source, the critical material should not be included here.
You are conflating two issues here. One is the status of editorial pieces and the other is newspaper coverage of a politician's critics. Editorial pieces are not news pieces, but in some cases, such as when they play a role in an election, they can be notable. For example, the criticism of Obama is sourced to an editorial piece in the Tribune. The second issue is a newspaper's coverage of a politician's critics, which most certainly is a valid reliable source. The criticism merely needs to be attributed to the politician's critics rather than the newspaper itself.*
As I've said, we don't need to be ramping up criticism against Democrats. What we need to be doing is toning it down against Republicans.
That's your opinion, not policy.
Thank you for reading this far, and I hope you understand this in the collegial spirit in which it's intended.
Actually, I find your tone paternalistic and condescending. Dropping the attitude will be helpful for both of us. — goethean ॐ 19:02, 7 February 2007 (UTC)
*A good example of this is the dishonest mailings that were sent to Sixth District addresses by the NRCC on behalf of Peter Roskam. They quoted CNN as calling the immigration plan put forward by John McCain "amnesty". Actually, the critic was a right-wing guest on the Lou Dobbs show. The mailings would have been accurate if they had attributed the criticism to the right-wing guest. Instead, they attributed it simply to CNN, converting the truth into a potent piece of false propaganda. I can send you a copy if you'd like. — goethean ॐ 19:07, 7 February 2007 (UTC)
CNN calls Duckworth's illegal immigration plan "amnesty."In Roskam's hands, truth gets slippery —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Goethean (talk • contribs) 19:13, 7 February 2007 (UTC).
  • Gothean, just what problem do you have with the suggestion which you marked "opinion, not policy"? Please expand your view. I hope you're not suggesting that NPOV means to keep adding criticism to one side or the other until it "balances". And I find your indignation over Dino's "paternalistic condescention" to be hypocritical. Your tone is no better. - Crockspot 19:15, 7 February 2007 (UTC)
Please expand your view.
Dino is alleging that there is too much criticism of Repubilcan candidates and not enough of Democratic candidates. Further, s/he is arguing that the way to resolve this issue is to remove material from articles on Republican candidates, starting with the Roskam article, and starting with removing mention of his views on abortion. I do not accept the validity of the first statement, nor its relevance to this article. This is the talk page for the Peter Roskam article; if you would like to discuss systemic bias on Wikipedia, bring it up at the appropriate talk page – this is not it. Her second claim assumes a deletionist rather than an inculsionist philosophy towards content in Wikipedia, an assumption that I do not share. Finally, the whole argument is a bit contentious and contrived. There are surely better ways to improve systemic bias in Wikipedia then removing a tiny mention of Roskam's notable and unpopular views on abortion. — goethean ॐ 19:29, 7 February 2007 (UTC)
I haven't had a chance yet to fully absorb the article (and I will), but in general, I think that all articles on living persons need to check the reigns a bit on criticism. There is plenty of undue weight to go around. These articles should not be hit pieces, I don't care what the subject's politics are. If the subject is alive, criticism should be notable, non-inflamatory, reliably sourced, and relevant to the subject's notability. I'm not saying that is or is not the case here, I don't know yet. I'm still trying to piece together what people's various issues are here. But that is how I judge whether or not criticism should be included, or even characterized as "criticism". - Crockspot 21:12, 7 February 2007 (UTC)
Furthermore, Dino is characterizing an accurate description of Roskam's views on abortion as "criticism." It is not; it's merely description. — goethean ॐ 19:31, 7 February 2007 (UTC)
What we have here is an attempt to disrupt. --BenBurch 19:55, 7 February 2007 (UTC)
By who? And what are they attempting to disrupt? A one-sided attempt to fill the article with every negative tidbit about the Congressman that can be found? --rogerd 19:59, 7 February 2007 (UTC)
Though I think it ought to be obvious, Dino has been mega-disruptive and mega-uncivil ever since the lifting of his permablock. Honestly, this article would probably be a whole lot less negative had he just stayed away from it. He has basically derailed my initiative to find positive things to say about Congressman Roskam (and there are positive things) and I see this article being pushed further and further towards what you suggest completely in reaction to him. But be that as it may, all of the negative bits are sourced and proper and ought to remain. I just don't think they would have been sought out had he not been here to raise his usual ruckus with condescension, incivility, and wikilawyering. And if he would just leave, we might be able to get this article back on track. --BenBurch 20:07, 7 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Abortion

This is going nowhere fast, and precious little of the previous discussion has actually been about the disputed material. Let's dispense with quoting the alphabet soup of policy, with accusations of partisanship, of dragging in outside conflicts, or complaining about alleged systematic bias. Let's please deal with this article and this material. Gamaliel 20:15, 7 February 2007 (UTC)

Of course. If someone doesn't show me an article within the next 67 hours about just one Democratic politician, living or dead, that picks apart his or her position on abortion in the same manner (and wasn't edited to include the picking apart within the last three days), I'll remove the phrase about the rape/incest exception from this article. Picking apart a politician's position in this way, on an issue that is as divisive as abortion, is POV pushing. It is blatant and it is obvious. Comparing this article to similar articles about Democrats is the best way to reveal this POV pushing. Notice that I point a finger at no one in particular; I'm just identifying a problem with the article and trying to solve it. Dino 20:27, 7 February 2007 (UTC)
This isn't helpful, this is more of the same. Issuing ultimatiums is not engaging in collaborative editing. Comparing articles is not helpful. If you think something is lacking in another article, go edit that article. Gamaliel 20:29, 7 February 2007 (UTC)
Yes, an excellent solution. "Go somewhere else and bother somebody else." The problem is here, not there. And comparing articles is very helpful. The comparison is being resisted for this reason: it proves my point. Articles about Democratic politicians are splendid examples of WP:BLP in action. Articles about Republican politicians are not, and this is a salient example. Dino 20:31, 7 February 2007 (UTC) (Signature added later for clarification)
If your point is that everyone is POV pushing but you, it is not welcome here. See Wikipedia:Assume good faith. Gamaliel 20:37, 7 February 2007 (UTC)
My point is that POV pushing in violation of Wikipedia policy is the root of all problems here, Gamaliel. Violating Wikipedia policies is not good. They are there for a reason. Dismissing them as "alphabet soup" is not a good idea. Dino 20:41, 7 February 2007 (UTC)
I do not dismiss policies, I am adamant about adhering to them. What I dismiss is quoting the alphabet soup of policy as a substitute for reasonable debate. Not everyone has the same interpretation of these policies as you do, and in the case of matters that are not clear cut or as clear cut as you imagine them to be, reasonable discussion is what is necessary. Gamaliel 20:44, 7 February 2007 (UTC)
... precious little of the previous discussion has actually been about the disputed material.
Sorry if I'm covering too much ground too fast. I'm also talking about the campaign contributions and all of the other subjects that are being argued about here. What it comes down to is this: how much criticism is too much? Dino 20:31, 7 February 2007 (UTC)
It might be helpful if we dealt with issues one at time or separated the discussions. Gamaliel 20:37, 7 February 2007 (UTC)
I respectfully disagree. All of these problems can be dealt with under one headline: POV pushing in violation of WP:BLP. Dino 20:38, 7 February 2007 (UTC)
Accusing other editors of being POV pushers is unhelpful, uncivil, unproductive, and will do nothing to bring this dispute to a mutually satisfactory conclusion. If you want to rant, take it to a message board. Gamaliel 20:41, 7 February 2007 (UTC)

Hey Dino : "Other critics of the Clintons have made more lurid allegations: that Foster's death was not a suicide, that it was connected to Whitewater, and that Hillary Clinton was somehow involved by covering up activities together with Foster before his death [27] or in that her relationship with Foster was an intimate one [28]. Other conspiracy theories claimed that she had killed Foster herself [29] or had him killed [30]. No credible evidence or charges were ever brought forward in connection with any of these allegations." - Fairness & Accuracy For All 20:57, 7 February 2007 (UTC)

You didn't find that in the Bill Clinton article, did you? And you didn't find it in the Hillary Rodham Clinton article either, did you? Thanks for proving my point. Dino 21:06, 7 February 2007 (UTC)
What point do you think you have? There's whole article dedicated to Hillary smears and character assassination ! Hillary_Rodham_Clinton_controversies Do you like this one? "In the 2000 book State of a Union: Inside the Complex Marriage of Bill and Hillary Clinton by former National Enquirer reporter Jerry Oppenheimer, lawyer Paul Fray, who ran Bill Clinton's failed 1974 run for Congress, claimed that after that defeat, Hillary Rodham, then Clinton's girlfriend, raged that he (Fray) was a “Fucking Jew Bastard.” [4] Failed National Enquirer reporters are now RS V sources for the Hillary-haters. - Fairness & Accuracy For All 21:16, 7 February 2007 (UTC)
What point do you think you have? There's whole article dedicated to Hillary smears and character assassination !
But it's not the Hillary Rodham Clinton article, sir. Again, thanks for proving my point. If you want to create a new article called Peter Roskam controversies and move 90% of this criticism over there, be my guest. (And by the way, Paul Fray's accusation was confirmed by two other people who heard Hillary say it; and it was written about by a lot more people than just one "failed National Enquirer reporter.") Dino 21:22, 7 February 2007 (UTC)
LOL! "Fray had previously been disbarred for altering court documents and also suffered from a medical condition that caused erratic behavior and memory loss. [7] " - Fairness & Accuracy For All 23:30, 7 February 2007 (UTC)

I removed the part about not tanking into account rape or incest, because neither of the sources support that. One of the sources MAY have supported that, but it comes up as a 404 error, so I tagged the cite appropriately. If the article can be found again, AND it supports the rape and incest thing, then it can go back in. Otherwise, the part about abortion is short and sweet, he opposes it except if the mother's life is in danger. I don't see a problem with that. (at least as it stands the last time I edited it. :) ) - Crockspot 21:32, 7 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Reasonable discussion of Wikipolicy as applied here

Let's have a reasonable discussion of Wikipedia policy as it applies to this article. Let's start with WP:BLP. Gamaliel, I welcome and admire your unambiguous statement that you're "adamant about adhering to [policy]."

Information available solely on partisan websites or in obscure newspapers should be handled with caution, and, if derogatory, should not be used at all. Information found in self-published books, zines or websites/blogs should never be used ...
The views of critics should be represented if their views are relevant to the subject's notability and are based on reliable sources, and so long as the material is written in a manner that does not overwhelm the article or appear to side with the critics' material. Be careful not to give a disproportionate amount of space to critics, to avoid the effect of representing a minority view as if it were the majority one. If the criticism represents the views of a tiny minority, it has no place in the article.

Gamaliel, what is your understanding of these statements of policy as applied to the current content dispute? They seem very clear cut to me. Dino 21:04, 7 February 2007 (UTC)

I have no idea, I haven't examined the material in detail yet, and it seems like we have three different content disputes going on at once. I'd like for the editors here to discuss this content and how the policies apply, if everyone calms down long enough for that to happen. Gamaliel 21:08, 7 February 2007 (UTC)
I will note that I just looked at the section on abortion, and it cites two mainstream media sources, so it does not appear to violate these cited policies. Gamaliel 21:10, 7 February 2007 (UTC)
But did you check the sources? The first link gives a 404 error, and the second one does not support the thing about not taking into account rape and incest. I put an fv tag on the first cite, and removed the second half of the sentence pending the source being found again. - Crockspot 21:23, 7 February 2007 (UTC)
As I said, I haven't examined the material in detail, I just looked to see if they were the type of sources that met our usual criterial for reliable sources. I'm definately going to examine this in more detail, and this is exactly the sort of thing I hoped we would discuss instead of wild accusations of partisanship. Gamaliel 21:33, 7 February 2007 (UTC)
A quick database search finds dozens of articles from Illinois newspapers substantiating the fact that Roskam is against abortion in cases of rape and incest. Gamaliel 21:43, 7 February 2007 (UTC)
Well then, if you have one that comes up on your screen, then cite it and restore the sentence. Just be sure that teh Rove hasn't scrubbed all of the actual articles from the innernets. :) - Crockspot 21:46, 7 February 2007 (UTC)
LOL. But seriously, one of the other editors can deal with that, there's enough cooks in this article already. I have my hands full just trying to herd the cats here. Gamaliel 21:52, 7 February 2007 (UTC)
Thanks for pointing out the land mine, Crockspot. I notice that he has already stepped on it. Dino 21:29, 7 February 2007 (UTC)
Please, that kind of comment isn't helpful. I just came to this article myself, and I just discovered that the cite lead to a dead link. I'm sure he would have come to the same conclusion given the chance. I don't have a lot of time over the next ten days, but I will try to look this over carefully, but I would prefer to spend what time I have improving the article, and not playing referee. - Crockspot 21:44, 7 February 2007 (UTC)
Could you explain what you mean by this? Gamaliel 21:33, 7 February 2007 (UTC)
What about "giving a disproportionate amount of space to critics"? Let's remember that Roskam won the election with a majority of the popular vote, so the critics are a minority in the 6th District. There is a prohibition against "representing the minority view as if it were the majority one." The link goes to WP:NPOV#Undue_weight. Dino 21:20, 7 February 2007 (UTC)
What about it? Please be specific. Start different sections for each topic and discuss why you think that particular topic discussion is excessive. Gamaliel 21:33, 7 February 2007 (UTC)
I will add, Gamaliel, that I'm remarkably calm. Dino 21:21, 7 February 2007 (UTC)
Then you will have no problem refraining from further accusations. Gamaliel 21:33, 7 February 2007 (UTC)
critics are a minority in the 6th District
Yes, and Duckworth was endorsed by every newspaper. The election represents opinion of those who happened to vote in the Sixth District. This article attempts to represent opinion of the entire world. You are comparing apples to oranges. — goethean ॐ 21:30, 7 February 2007 (UTC)
Goethean, newspapers don't vote. The editors and reporters who work for newspapers do vote, however; and if they happened to vote for Duckworth, they were in the minority. Dino 21:54, 7 February 2007 (UTC)
Are you really arguing that a Wikipedia article should reflect the opinions of the majority of votes from the Sixth District? That's absurd. — goethean ॐ 01:38, 8 February 2007 (UTC)
To be fair and honest, I don't think the "entire world" has an opinion on this guy. I didn't ever hear of him until this ruckus broke out. At best you can say it is the opinion of print media in and around his district. And there are those who believe that the print media is biased to the left. - Crockspot 21:39, 7 February 2007 (UTC)
I don't think the "entire world" has an opinion on this guy
The point is that Dino's claim about critics being in the minority is unsound.
And there are those who believe that the print media is biased to the left.
I hope you don't expect Wikipedia to kowtow to conservative conspiracy media theories. — goethean ॐ 21:45, 7 February 2007 (UTC)
It's your opinion that that his claim is unsound. I tend to agree that his critics are a minority. For you to marginalize the majority who elected him as insignificant is a bit of a stretch. And you certainly can't characterize newspaper endorsements in a district race as the "opinion of the entire world". Please. - Crockspot 21:51, 7 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] A simple solution to a problem that appears complex

What about it? Please be specific. Start different sections for each topic and discuss why you think that particular topic discussion is excessive.

There's no need to start separate sections, Gamaliel. I have a very strong prejudice in favor of simple solutions to problems that appear complex. The reason I feel that the topic discussion was excessive in all three areas was a side by side comparison with the Melissa Bean article, which covers the Democrat who represents a neighboring district in Illinois. Her opponent made plenty of accusations during the campaign and they were reported in the media, but somehow, they never made it into the Wikipedia article about Melissa Bean, except for one: the "Nancy Pelosi wannabe" remark, which reflects poorly on the opponent rather than Ms. Bean. That is not a deficiency in the Melissa Bean article. Instead, it spotlights a policy violation in the Peter Roskam article. Dino 21:46, 7 February 2007 (UTC)

Hardly. There are plenty of reasons why one article may have more information than another on a similar topic without imagining editorial malfesance. And if your "simple solution" is the correct one, hypothetically speaking, what then? Do you expect someone to come by and ban these editors or prevent them from editing here? If that is your ideal solution, start an RFC because complaining here won't accomplish that. Gamaliel 21:52, 7 February 2007 (UTC)
There are plenty of reasons why one article may have more information than another on a similar topic without imagining editorial malfesance.
I'm just looking at the result, Gamaliel. I'm not pointing an accusatory finger at anyone. I'm just saying that the article violated WP:NPOV#Undue_weight and WP:BLP before I started working on it. Now let me ask you something, if I may be so bold: if I push my POV like a Caterpillar tractor, and the result is an excellent NPOV article that adheres to Wikipedia policy on biographies about living persons, is that a bad thing?
And if your "simple solution" is the correct one, hypothetically speaking, what then? Do you expect someone to come by and ban these editors or prevent them from editing here?
Of course not. My simple solution is to address the single cause of three problems that appear to be separate, and to remove or modify material that violates Wikipedia policy. Please don't put words in my mouth, sir. Dino 21:58, 7 February 2007 (UTC)
Can you implement that solution through discussion instead of accusations and ultimatiums? While you claim you are not "pointing an accusatory finger at anyone", when you throw around terms like "POV pushing", you are insulting, intentionally or not, the editors who worked on this article before you who feel that their work is fair and neutral. You want this article to adhere to Wikipedia content policies, I want you to pursue that while adhering to Wikipedia conduct policies. Gamaliel 22:04, 7 February 2007 (UTC)

Between Dino and Gothean, I'm already exhausted. I'll look back in tomorrow. Crockspot 22:01, 7 February 2007 (UTC)

Can you implement that solution through discussion ...
Sure. Is there any article in Wikipedia about any Democratic politician that picks apart his or her position on abortion, and wasn't edited to include the "picking apart" in the past three days? Let's discuss that. Can anybody find one? Just one will do. Dino 22:11, 7 February 2007 (UTC)
Can you try discussing the content of this article please? Gamaliel 22:15, 7 February 2007 (UTC)
Gamaliel, I'm discussing the content of this article by comparing it with the content of other articles that should be very similar, but are not. I like analogies, don't you? If Shaquille O'Neal landed on the planet Mars and the Martians never saw a human being before, they might get the idea that the average Earthling is seven feet tall, weighs 350 pounds and wears a size 22 shoe. It is only by comparing Shaquille with the other Earthlings that one can reach the correct conclusion: there's something unusual about this one. Dino 22:23, 7 February 2007 (UTC)
And you are making a host of unwarranted assumptions in your comparison: that the other articles are not deficient, that this article differs as a result of POV, that the edits in this article are accurately described as "picking apart", etc. You may enjoy this as a debate tactic, but as method for arriving at article consensus it is spectaularly unhelpful. Gamaliel 22:30, 7 February 2007 (UTC)
And you are making a host of unwarranted assumptions in your comparison: that the other articles are not deficient, that this article differs as a result of POV, that the edits in this article are accurately described as "picking apart", etc.
By shining the twin spotlights of WP:NPOV#Undue_weight and WP:BLP on all the articles about American members of Congress, it becomes clear that my assumptions are not unwarranted. You obviously don't agree, but there it is. Let me ask this: is there just one article about one Democratic member of Congress that contained the same amount of criticism that this one did before I started working on it? If "the other articles are deficient," one would think that the deficiencies would be bipartisan. But it seems to me that the articles about Democrats are the ones that are "deficient" (in your opinion) while the articles about Republicans contain just the right amount of criticism. Dino 22:34, 7 February 2007 (UTC)
You obviously don't agree. Exactly! Editing by accusation and ultimatium is pointless precisely because people won't agree with you and will ignore your silly ultimatiums, no matter how many times you chant BLP! BLP! I have been urging you to discuss the specifics because it is in the specifics where compromise and collaborative editing occur. Compose your broad theories of systematic bias all you want, but they won't help bring editors together on a solution for this article. I'm done urging you. As long as you remain civil and refrain from leveling accusations against other users, you can issue all the ultimatums you want, and the rest of us will just ignore them. Gamaliel 22:40, 7 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] For Dino

  • DINO WROTE : "If someone doesn't show me an article within the next 67 hours about just one Democratic politician, living or dead, that picks apart his or her position on abortion in the same manner (and wasn't edited to include the picking apart within the last three days), I'll remove the phrase about the rape/incest exception from this article. Picking apart a politician's position in this way, on an issue that is as divisive as abortion, is POV pushing. It is blatant and it is obvious. Comparing this article to similar articles about Democrats is the best way to reveal this POV pushing."

"Harry Reid is pro-life and was a co-sponsor of the Freedom of Access to Clinic Entrances Act of 1994, which set new rules and restrictions on abortion rights protesters.[20] He has voted on numerous occasions for the ban on partial-birth abortions, and in 2003 he supported substitute language that would have banned all late-term abortions, while allowing exceptions for the life and health of the woman involved. Although Reid received a 100% rating from NARAL in 2001, and from 1995-2004 voted with the interests of the National Family Planning and Reproductive Health Association 68% of the time, in 2003 and 2004, Reid received 29% and 20% ratings, respectively, from NARAL Pro-Choice America." (more to come) - Fairness & Accuracy For All 23:07, 7 February 2007 (UTC)

"On June 19, 2006, [Kathleen] Blanco signed into law a ban on most forms of abortion (unless the life of the mother was in danger or her health would be permanently damaged) once it passed the state legislature. Although she felt exclusions for rape or incest would have "been reasonable," she felt she should not veto based on those reasons. The bill would only go into effect if the United States Supreme Court reversed Roe v. Wade. [25] This decision is consistent with the generally conservative leaning of Louisiana's populace on social issues. Fairness & Accuracy For All

Well, I think we're done here. Nice work. Gamaliel 23:48, 7 February 2007 (UTC)
Thanks - I'm sure there are even more here. Democrats_for_Life_of_America I only went through the first 5 or 6 out of 20+ - Fairness & Accuracy For All 23:58, 7 February 2007 (UTC)
I should have specified "pro-choice" Democrats. Naturally, any pro-life Democrat would have his or her position picked apart just like any pro-life Republican. Both of these examples are pro-life Democrats. Show me an article about a pro-choice Democrat who has his or her position on abortion picked apart in this manner. Dino 01:10, 8 February 2007 (UTC)
'should-of, could-of, would-of ... but didn't !' NOW you want to change your claim. Now that you have egg dripping off your face! Too late! LMAO - Fairness & Accuracy For All 01:33, 8 February 2007 (UTC)
I'm still a relative newcomer here and the longer I stay, the more I learn. I've just learned something. The prevailing partisanship (and POV pushing) isn't Democrat vs. Republican. It's Left vs. Right. If a Democrat (such as Zell Miller or Joe Lieberman) starts showing conservative tendencies, his Wikipedia article will start turning into a hatchet job in direct proportion to those tendencies. And if a Republican (such as Lincoln Chafee or Chuck Hagel) starts showing tendencies acceptable to MoveOn.org, his Wikipedia article will start turning into an advertising brochure. Dino 01:48, 8 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] The abortion issue redux

The leading anti abortion orgs and Christian FAQs all appear to discuss the 'except in rape / incest' option - and all the reports I found on SD's failed anti abortion initiative discuss it.

South Dakota votes against ban of almost all abortions

(AP) -- South Dakotans rejected a toughest-in-the-nation law that would have banned virtually all abortions, even in cases of rape and incest -- defeating one of the most high-profile state measures facing voters Tuesday. CNN

Christian Answers rape Incest

Abortion Facts incest and abortion

National Right to Life: NRLC - abortion "A June 1999 Wirthlin poll found that 62% of Americans support legal abortion in only three or fewer circumstances: when the pregnancy results from rape or incest or when it threatens the life of the mother."

Without casting aspersions - I contend that the most egregious POV pushing which may be occuring is by those who are trying to prevent this article from painting a clear picture of Roskam's well-defined abortion stance. It seems they are actually ashamed of what the good congressman stands for! I wonder if the good congressman is similarly ashamed (I think not) and what he would think of such blatant obfuscation? - Fairness & Accuracy For All 22:49, 7 February 2007 (UTC)

I contend that the most egregious POV pushing which may be occuring is by those who are trying to prevent this article from painting a clear picture of Roskam's well-defined abortion stance.
Try again. The "most egregious POV pushing" occurred months ago when the article was used as a vehicle for Duckworth campaign rhetoric. It was during the campaign; and only now, when the election is over and Congressman Roskam has been sworn in, is the article approaching NPOV. It still has a few problems; but the reduction of all the legal campaign contributions by law-abiding citizens who have been scrutinized for other reasons, and other efforts at guilt by association, were a very big step in the right direction. Dino 01:14, 8 February 2007 (UTC)
I wasn't here then. I only found this article after you boasted on the Free Republic talk page that Freepers were 'instrumental' in getting Roskam elected. Where IS that info Dino? Another one of your 'claims' - like Roskam has 08 campaign workers in place and is already fundraising for his 08 run? LOL! (mutters to self...where's that Pinocchio pic again?) ROFLMAO - Fairness & Accuracy For All 01:27, 8 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] What is our goal here?

I don't know about the rest of you, but I think it should be every longstanding editor's goal to get articles to Good Article and eventually featured article status. This article is miles from that goal, IMO. One thing that means is that you should be able to read the article and not be able to guess the political slant of the editors. A good example is "xxx opposes abortion rights", or "xxx is pro-life". Both of those phrases are politically loaded to one side or the other. A more neutral phrasing would be "xxx opposes abortion". We all have our political opinions here, but we should leave them out of the article. You can have a fully referenced and sourced article that is still slanted and POV. --rogerd 22:12, 7 February 2007 (UTC)

My goal is GA too. But sometimes when you paint an accurate picture you wind up with something that *appears* to have a slant because the RS-V sources that can be found all paint a picture of somebody who has some negative issues. I try to balance this by seeking out the positive issues that you can find about most people. But if somebody has a hard-line abortion stance (harder than most anti-abortion advocates), seeks to ban books and movies, and talks tort reform while making his living on the lack of tort reform those facts are material to any true depiction. As are his buying and returning soldier's dog tags part of a true depiction. Very few human beings are 100% good or 100% bad, and wherever that line falls, you have to draw it in any biographical article. But I agree with you that you should seek the most neutral language possible that still conveys the data to be exposited. --BenBurch 23:03, 7 February 2007 (UTC)
Just for the record, I think abortion is bad. Effective birth control should have been used in most cases where an abortion is sought, and wasn't through irresponsibility. I wouldn't prevent anybody from doing it because I have a very Libertarian view of personal freedom, but I would hope that nobody here tries to paint me as some sort of advocate for it. Thanks. --BenBurch 23:07, 7 February 2007 (UTC)
Just for the record, I think abortion (on demand, in the 1st trimester) is good GREAT - and furthermore - it should be federally subsidized and no more costly or harder to get than a flu shot. That is all. - Fairness & Accuracy For All 01:46, 8 February 2007 (UTC)
Just for the record, I don't care what your position on abortion or any other political issue is. That is my whole point, you shouldn't bring it here. This is not a politics forum, it is an encyclopedia. --rogerd 03:04, 8 February 2007 (UTC)
Bravo. An editors' claims that there is only negative RS-V sources for a political candidate that won his district is going to have difficulty contributiong productively to the article. Most people have trouble writing objectively if they have an opinion, however good editors recognize when an edit improves the NPOV stance. It is my experience that this is not happening here and the article spirals into ever more biased POV. There is no "line to be drawn" nor should his biography be a collection of simple positive and negative factoids. --Tbeatty 03:12, 8 February 2007 (UTC)
Yeah... sure... trying to HIDE his abortion stance (like the Roskam supporters here want) so that the reader has no idea what he stands for is really NPOV. LOL !- Fairness & Accuracy For All 03:26, 8 February 2007 (UTC)
No one is hiding his abortion stance. In fact, it is slanted left even when it is described as "Opposing abortion except to protect the life of the mother" is an accurate description of his position. A NPOV version is that Roskam "opposes abortion rights" and that is apparently the AP method of reporting. Tryng to portray his position in such a light so that it comes out as "hard line" is simply POV. I have not seen any Roskam supporters and I am certainly not one as I didn't hear about him until this article. But I know a smear job when I see it. This article reads like a DCCC ad. --Tbeatty 03:51, 8 February 2007 (UTC)
Okay, go out and find those positive sources. You just volunteered. --BenBurch 03:30, 8 February 2007 (UTC)
The sources are adequate. The tone is the problem. You have opposed all attempts at changing the tone. In fact you violated 3RR to maintain the critical tone of this article. --Tbeatty 03:51, 8 February 2007 (UTC)
Justify yourself that way if you want... Whatever gets you through the night. --BenBurch 03:59, 8 February 2007 (UTC)

I removed this article from the Good Article nominations because it is highly unstable and, in its current Freeper-ized state, highly POV. — goethean ॐ 21:21, 8 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Memory hole

The following was recently removed:

The late nationally syndicated columnist Molly Ivins commented, "Every election cycle produces some wincers, but how do you apologize for that one?"[3]
Roskam supports the death penalty, and opposes same-sex marriage and civil unions.[4]
(Roskam never served in the military) [4]
Opponents have maintained that the legislation would force the removal of classics like Romeo and Juliet, Little House on the Prairie, and It's a Wonderful Life from classrooms.[5]
On October 3, 2006, according to Crain's Chicago Business, Roskam's opponent charged that Roskam should return the $40,000 in campaign contributions that he received from House Speaker Hastert and other House leaders who she accused of covering up the Mark Foley sexual harassment scandal.[6]
Roskam has been criticized for his law-firm's advertisements in the yellow pages. [7]
On 3 October 2006, Jillian Lindeen filed a malpractice lawsuit against Roskam in the DuPage County court. The suit alleges Roskam failed to use due diligence in pursuing Lindeen's personal injury case and that as a result Lindeen's case was dismissed on 1 August 2006.[8]
In 1992, Roskam's state campaign was investigated by the Illinois Attorney General and the Internal Revenue Service for failing to report campaign contributions from a 501(c)(3).[9]
Roskam's campaign manager, Ryan McLaughlin, said that adult and umbilical cord research "is where the results are really occurring for individuals across the country", and said that other issues are more pressing for the Sixth district.[10] However, the National Institutes of Health claims embryonic stem cells have greater potential.[11]
Roskam's campaign manager says that Roskam supports "common-sense gun control provisions" in the gun politics debate.
Duckworth also noted that Roskam's campaign has received heavy donations from the House Republican Campaign Committee, to which Foley gave $500,000 over the past decade. Roskam responded that Hastert acted correctly and added that "the Democrats have had lots of scandals of their own."[12] As of June 30, 2006, Roskam has received more contributions from political committees formed by sitting legislators than any other non-incumbent Congressional candidate in the nation. A Roskam campaign spokesman credited House Speaker Dennis Hastert for those contributions: "That's related to how important [Hastert] is for us in this race." [13]

Travb (talk) 03:38, 8 February 2007 (UTC)

And? FAAFA NO LONGER has a nice picture of Ivins on his user page. AND HASN'T HAD ONE SINCE YESTERDAY It's not attributed to anyone so I suspect it's a personal photo? A Molly Ivins quote, while entertaining, really has no relevance in a Roskam biography but maybe in an article that covered the Roskam/Duckworth race (if there is one, which I doubt)? --Tbeatty 03:51, 8 February 2007 (UTC)
And nothing :) Travb (talk) 03:52, 8 February 2007 (UTC)
"FAAFA has a nice picture of Ivins on his user page." WHAT???!!! THAT'S Molly Ivins? (RIP) ROFLMAO! - Fairness & Accuracy For All 06:59, 8 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Cleanup for tone

First shot at a cleanup. Probably should be reorganized as well. All the Eric Krol editorials seem irrelevant as opinion except where facts are cited (and are relevant to the bio). A lot of it was fluff not particlularly relevant to his bio or actually unsourced claims. I removed weasel words and run-on sentences. Tbeatty 04:46, 8 February 2007 (UTC)

Two thumbs down. - FAAFA (The Chosen Vessel of the Remaining Bride) 09:33, 8 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] What's pathetic?

The fact that Roskam supporters think that HIS MOTHER buying 37 dog tags for $20 in Vietnam is 2001, and Roskam helping to return them to the families, in anything more than an interesting bit of TRIVA, but needs to be conflated into something more, and prominently featured in the article. Sad :-(

Too bad MoveOn didn't think to make a biting campaign ad comparing the 2 candidates 'military' service and sacrifice! Duckworth - two legs and an arm in service of her country vs Roskam - $20 and postage! (assuming that he paid his mom back, that is) LMAO - Fairness & Accuracy For All 07:32, 8 February 2007 (UTC)

I believe I deleted that in my version. And the other bits of trivia and pablum. --Tbeatty 01:45, 9 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Violating WP:BLP is what's pathetic

Including the name of each and every newspaper that endorsed Duckworth, along with excerpts from several of the endorsements, violates WP:BLP because it makes Wikipedia appear to side with Roskam's critics. See also WP:NOT. Wikipedia is not an inventory of everything negative that has ever been published on the Internet about Peter Roskam. It is sufficient to state that several Illinois newspapers had endorsed Duckworth. At this point, I'll respond to a remark by Goethean:

Are you really arguing that a Wikipedia article should reflect the opinions of the majority of votes from the Sixth District? That's absurd.

I am arguing that a Wikipedia article about the incumbent Congressman from the Sixth District should reflect the opinions of the majority of voters from the Sixth District, and that claiming the opposite is what's absurd. Wikipedia must not be used as a propaganda machine by Roskam's challenger in 2008. It cannot even resemble such a propaganda machine. Dino 11:19, 8 February 2007 (UTC)

If you were to start a Wiki that only concerned itself with the Sixth District, then you would have a point. But here, you do not. — goethean ॐ 16:59, 8 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Free Republic claims

Dino - I was drawn here by your claim on the Free Republic talk page : "Freepers were instrumental in helping Peter Roskam beat Tammy Duckworth three months ago, bucking the national trend." I couldn't find anything about it in the article! Could you point me in right direction concerning FR's instrumental help in Roskam's victory? (it should be here in this article, right?) - FAAFA (The Chosen Vessel of the Remaining Bride) 11:42, 8 February 2007 (UTC)

Here's a clue: www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1735576/posts#2
Here's another ... look who started the thread: www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1726044/posts "I have said many times that I will continue to help with this campaign for Pete, and I intend to go full blast on the last 72-hour push."
Now that you have your answer, you no longer have an excuse for Wikistalking me over here. Dino 13:06, 8 February 2007 (UTC)
So let me get this straight Dino - You admit to working on the 06 Roskam campaign, and in another thread claim that he's already got his 08 campaign in place - fundraising and filling staff positions (insider info if you will - as there's no public evidence of a Roskam 08 campaign) - and you want us to believe that you DON'T have a COI??? - FAAFA (The Chosen Vessel of the Remaining Bride) 14:55, 8 February 2007 (UTC)
Er..... Dino..... Your Free Republic threads indicate that you were the only Freeper working on the Roskam campaign. Can I assume you were an unpaid volunteer? So.... you volunteering on the Roskam campaign translates to : "Freepers were instrumental in helping Peter Roskam beat Tammy Duckworth three months ago" in your mind ? Wow... just wow. - FAAFA (The Chosen Vessel of the Remaining Bride) 15:01, 8 February 2007 (UTC)
I say again: now that you have your answer, you no longer have an excuse for Wikistalking me over here. You may consider this your final warning prior to seeking remedial action from an administrator. Also, please don't assume that the threads I've linked were written by me, or about me. I've just linked them to provide the proof that you've been demanding. Finally, there are two separate posts, on two separate threads, by two separate Freepers, stating that they were working on the campaign. It wasn't just one. If I really started hunting, I could probably find a few more.
The whole truth of the matter is that about half of Roskam's campaign staff and at least 10% of the volunteers were Freepers. But that isn't the sort of thing that gets bragged about, or covered by the news media. As you are certainly aware, many people who participate on Internet forums such as DU, FR and Wikipedia do not want their online personas identified with their real life names and careers. The Internet provides anonymity for those who choose to have it. So I hope you'll understand if I maintain that the two links I've already given you should be sufficient, and refuse to provide any more information. I'm not trying to put it into any articles, after all. Dino 15:38, 8 February 2007 (UTC)
You're WARNING me not to participate here anymore???? LOL! I ain't leaving! PLEASE file your Wikistalking complaint as promised! I implore you! "Half of Roskam's campaign staff ?" LMAO ! Another 'claim' like he has a 08 campaign up and running, huh? - FAAFA (The Chosen Vessel of the Remaining Bride) 18:36, 8 February 2007 (UTC)