Talk:Peter O'Toole

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[edit] Long, short, and tall

You've left out "The Long and the Short and the Tall", a breakthrough for O'Toole's stage career, and his greatest film, Nick Ray's "The Savage Innocents". It's true he took his name off the credits of the latter becauese the producers insisted on dubbing his part, but he never acted in a film that good again. James Leahy, 13 July 2004.

I changed [[English|British]] to [[British]] as the terms are not equivalent - but is "British" accurate? Wouldn't it be better just to leave it as Irish? -- sannse 17:11 7 Jun 2003 (UTC)

I dunno. His Irish accent is terrible. Mintguy

British is wrong. I don't know who keeps changing it but he is an Irish actor. The fact that worked primarily in Britain can be explained in the article, but where we state nationality we do not say anything other than what he was, which is Irish. O'Toole once said being called British was one of the worst insults he ever received. He is no more English than Chancellor Gordon Brown is English or Billy Connolly is English or Joan Collins is American. Simply being born, growing up and working in a place does not make you 'of that country'. Re his accent, he blames RADA for in his words "giving me a toffee-nosed Tory accent". FearÉIREANN 18:17 7 Jun 2003 (UTC)

Hmmm...."simply being born, growing up and working in a place does not make you 'of that country' ". What precisely DOES "make you of that country"? Millbanks 12:21, 18 September 2007 (UTC)

A bit sad that being called British is such an insult. After all, his mother was British.Bill Tegner 15:41, 22 February 2007 (UTC) Would an Irish American be insulted at being called American? Millbanks 09:36, 18 September 2007 (UTC)

Gordon Brown was born in Scotland of Scottish parents. Why should anyone claim he was English? He's very keen on being British, though.Bill Tegner 23:23, 8 February 2007 (UTC)

That's what I thought, thanks for fixing it -- sannse 18:43 7 Jun 2003 (UTC)
I always think of him as Irish. He received the BAFTA for Best British Actor for Lawrence of Arabia. I believe that he only lived in Ireland till he was about 7. Does he have dual nationality? Mintguy
Not that I know of. Britain has a habit of claiming successful Irish people as being British. U2 regularly wins 'best British band' awards, Ronan Keating 'best British vocalist' (???) awards, etc. Irish people just laugh at it all. FearÉIREANN 20:54 9 Jun 2003 (UTC)
I always think of him as Irish, mainly because of the drinking. Deb 20:41 9 Jun 2003 (UTC)
If he was born in Leeds and his mother was scottish, isn't he automatically a British citizen? Arniep 21:21, 15 January 2006 (UTC)

If he was really born and brought up in Britain, as the article suggests, then he is British not Irish. Saying he is Irish but born and brought up in Britain is ridiculous, you can't have it both ways. JW 22:38, 2 June 2006 (UTC)

O'Toole's stage career is very poorly served by this article. I shall add some stuff when I get the chance. Jmc29

Okay, as a family member, I have updated this page and made it accurate, I have also added to the stage career info and edited out the Brit stuff - PETE IS NOT BRITISH AND HAS NEVER CARRIED A BRITISH PASSPORT, HE HAS HELD AN IRISH PASSPORT SINCE 1959 - now please leave this page alone and stop trying to claim him for your underachieving country. As for the argument about where is Connemara, he was born, he thinks Letterfrack. Anyway, I have left this open by allowing for the Kerry, Dublin and Leeds theories which I think is the fairest way. Because of the fact that home births are now rare, the Irish state now regards your place of birth as the place where your mother resided at the time of your birth (otherwise only towns with maternity hospitals would be birthplaces!) and Constance O'Toole was resident in Galway in September 1932.

OK, so the Brits (or is it the English?) are trying to claim him for their "underachieving country". But it was the Sunday Independent, an Irish newspaper, which reported O'Toole's English birthplace earlier this year. Bill Tegner 15:41, 22 February 2007 (UTC)

Well, if "Pete" "was never a British citizen", even though it seems he was born in Leeds, presumably you're telling us that until he got his Irish passport in 1959 he was technically stateless. I'm told that when he played TE Lawrence, he said he was "an Irishman playing an Irishman". Lawrence was the Welsh born son of an Anglo-Irish baronet, and is described as being "of mixed English and Scottish ancestry". Oh dear, isn't life complicated? Does this sort of thing really matter?Bill Tegner 23:23, 8 February 2007 (UTC)


If he's not British, why did he do National Service in Britain?

[edit] Wasn't Peter O'Toole Gay?

Wasn't Peter O'Toole Gay?

Not that I've ever heard or read about. And he's still very much alive. JackofOz 01:45, 1 March 2006 (UTC)
Perhaps thinking of Lawrence of Arabia. Markyour words 01:56, 1 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Consistency

The text is unequivocal in stating that O'Toole was born in Leeds, UK. But the info box gives his birthplace as Commemara. One or other needs to be revised. Does anyone have definitive info in this regard? Also, Connemara is a rather nebulous locale to use when giving a person's birthplace. In the UK, it's rather like saying someone was born in the West Country.Billyblunt 12:22, 6 July 2006 (UTC)

The index to the English birth registers for July-Sept 1932, for the Leeds North registration district, includes: O'Toole, Peter J. and gives the mother's maiden name as Ferguson. The index is a public document which anyone can access. The birth certificate reference is Volume 9b page 307. I assume this is him and that the J is for James (= Seamus). If his mother's maiden name matches, I think that would clinch it. Bluewave 14:10, 14 September 2006 (UTC)

It's fairly clear that he was born in Leeds, but someone's desperate to state that he was born in Connemara, I'm not sure why. There seemed to be a compromise to the effect that his place of birth was "disputed" as it most certainly is, but there seem to be attempts even to deny that now. Sad. Bill Tegner 22:28, 1 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Daily Show Appearance, 11 Jan 2007

O'Toole was asked who he most enjoyed working with, and he said that Katharine Hepburn was the top of the list. (my phrase, not his.) Is there someway to indicate this, perhaps through changing up pictures to show the two in the same scene? ThuranX 04:26, 12 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Iconic

Someone keeps repeatedly inserting the word iconic in the description of O'Toole's performances, but without giving an edit summary or an explanation. What exactly does that word mean? Is it really appropriate for a performance in the film Venus which has only just come out in 2006? In my view, it is an over-used word which has virtually lost all meaning, especially in this context. Any comments? Orbicle 00:21, 25 January 2007 (UTC)


I do agree, and I edited it up a bit myself. I did so before reading your entry, however. I suppose we think alike. LonesomeCowboyBill 11:21, 18 February 2007 (EST)

[edit] British Citizen?

Since O'Toole was born in England, of a British mother and did British National Service, it seems odd that it is stated that he has never been a British citizen. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Bill Tegner (talk • contribs) 21:24, 28 January 2007 (UTC).

I think that being born in England with one British parent would have been adequate to claim British citizenship in 1932. However, I presume that neither O'Toole's parents, nor O'Toole himself, ever wished him to be British, so never claimed citizenship. I don't think that being born in Britain has ever enforced British citizenship for those who don't want it. I'm not sure about National Service: I assume that it was a requirement for those born in Britain and resident in Britain at a certain age, and not specifically linked to nationality. Spike Milligan, for example, famously served in the British army but was refused British citizenship. Bluewave 08:52, 29 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] British Citizen?

I'm not sure how you "claim" British citizenship. The whole issue is very complcated, but being born in 1932 in England with a British mother would make you a British citizen de facto and de jure. As the son of a bona fide Irishman O'Toole had every right to claim Irish citizenship, and this he did. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Bill Tegner (talk • contribs) 09:32, 29 January 2007 (UTC).

[edit] Knights

Sir Terry Wogan and Sir Anthony O'Reilly, both of whom Irish born, bred and educated (unlike Perter O'Toole) are British knights, and not merely honorary ones. That's because they both became Briish citizens. To the best of my knowledge they did not renounce their Irish citizenship, and they both remain unmistakeably Irish.

[edit] Place of birth and nationality

The stuff about his place of birth and nationality has now been removed as too contentious. Surely an encyclopedia should be able to do better than that. Let me test the water, by stating what I believe to be facts, before embarking on any edits.

  • O'Toole calls himself Irish; his father was Irish; O'Toole has an Irish passport. Presumably the "nationality" section in the passport says "Irish". Thus I believe his nationality can be stated as Irish.
  • Sources differ about his place of birth. However, as I noted somewhere above, the index to the English birth registers for July-Sept 1932, for the Leeds North registration district, includes: O'Toole, Peter J. and gives the mother's maiden name as Ferguson. The index is a public document which anyone can access. The birth certificate reference is Volume 9b page 307. This is a verifiable source and makes it pretty clear that he was born in Leeds.

Other views?

PS The birth registration has not just been checked by me: an article in the Irish Independent earlier this year said the same thing. Bluewave 16:49, 21 February 2007 (UTC)

Well, it seems pretty clear that he was born in Leeds, but some poster is desperate to state that he was born in Connemara, and if that makes him happy, well, why bother to change it? Peter O'Toole is a fine actor who decided to change his second name to Seamus and become an Irish citizen. I really can't see that where he was born makes much difference to anything.Bill Tegner 18:06, 21 February 2007 (UTC)--Bill Tegner 18:06, 21 February 2007 (UTC)

I've just checked some other sites. The Wikipedia entry for Leeds says that Peter comes from there. He's also included in a list of famous people from Leeds. The entries for Connemara, Clifden and Galway don't mention him at all.Bill Tegner 08:34, 22 February 2007 (UTC)

Those cannot be used to verify anything. We need independent external references. If it really doesn't matter whether anything Wikipedia says is factual, or has a reputable external citation, we may as well say he was born in Zanzibar or the South Pole, in 1673 BC. Of course it matters that we get these sorts of details right, otherwise what's the point of this whole project? We're not here to appease people with particular agendas or points of view. JackofOz 09:42, 22 February 2007 (UTC)

See above. There is verifiable evidence in the (Sunday) Irish Independent. My only point (rather a snide one, sorry) is that whoever's pushing the "never mind the birth registration, O'Toole was born in Ireland" agenda, might care to look elsewhere. For all I know he's been at work on the Leeds sites already.Bill Tegner 15:47, 22 February 2007 (UTC)

Yesterday's Irish Times has an interesting piece featuring an interview of Peter O'Toole by Kate Holmquist. I quote: "Official biographies say that O'Toole was born in Clifden, Co Galway. 'No, darling. This is one of the great myths...It depends which document you read'. O'Toole has two birth certificates..." Curiouser and curiouser.Bill Tegner 19:57, 25 February 2007 (UTC)--Bill Tegner 19:57, 25 February 2007 (UTC)

Oh dear, it's been changed again. But just for the record, Peter James O'Toole, latterly Peter Seamus O'Toole, was born in Leeds. It no longer seems possible to change the main article, but it is wrong. How sad that someone feels the need to perpetuate an inaccuracy.Bill Tegner 22:18, 28 March 2007 (UTC)

It's been corrected. Many thanks to whoever did it. Bill Tegner 21:33, 29 March 2007 (UTC)

There's a new suggestion (and edit) by user:Vintagekits that O'Toole was born in Galway, but that he also got a birth certificate when the family moved to England. The civil registration process in England doesn't work like that: a child born in England has to be registered in the district of their birth. A child of British nationality, born overseas, has their birth registered through a different process and would not appear in the indexes for an English city like Leeds. It would be illegal for a family to have a child in Ireland, then move to England and register an English birth. If this was indeed what the O'Toole's did, it would warrant a significant section in the article. However, I don't think there is any evidence. Bluewave 08:21, 17 July 2007 (UTC)
Do we give any credence at all to what O'Toole himself wrote in his autobiography? This is what is referenced (currently) in the Early Life section. Monkeyzpop 09:16, 17 July 2007 (UTC)
Other sources (eg the British civil registration records and the article in the Irish Independent) disagree with his autobiography. I suggest that this article should reflect that inconsistency between the sources and make it clear that there is some doubt about his place of birth. Bluewave 09:28, 17 July 2007 (UTC)
But that's exactly what the article does now -- state that there is an inconsistency among sources and that there is doubt, even on O'Toole's part, as to his place of birth. Is there a further problem with what the article says?Monkeyzpop 18:16, 17 July 2007 (UTC)
Well I was commenting on the fact that user:Vintagekits had added "birthplace = Connemara, County Galway, Ireland" and that the rationale for this was "his oroiginal DOB is in Galway - its resonable to assume he also got a bc when they faimly move to england)" [sic]. I don't think this is a reasonable assumption for the reasons stated above, and think that stating a definitive birthplace is misleading, even in the summary box, even if the main text contradicts it. Bluewave 20:43, 17 July 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Photograph

Can we find a more flattering photograph of him? The one currently being used is sort of awful and goofy. For the time being, I've replaced it with the image from lower in the article of him in his famous Lawrence of Arabia role. --Lendorien 16:26, 26 February 2007 (UTC)

I've reverted. WP:FUC states that we cannot use a copyrighted image when a free one is available. Borisblue 15:16, 27 February 2007 (UTC)
Then I suggest we pull the image entirely. It looks awful, makes him look awful and it seems insulting to use it for those reasons. Heaven knows that if I had a wikipedia page with my image on it, I wouldn't want people to use one that looked like that. --Lendorien 17:45, 27 February 2007 (UTC)
I would keep it- it at least shows what he looks like at present, and thus has encyclopedic value. Borisblue 04:27, 28 February 2007 (UTC)
One thing we could do is contact him or his PR people or whoever and ask if they're willing to release a better photograph of him under a Wikipedia-compatible license. It's important to phrase it right so they release it under the right license, though (just saying that we can use it is not enough). See Wikipedia:Example requests for permission for examples. Anyway, it might not work, but it's worth a shot... I'm sure that, like anyone else, he'd rather have good pictures of him out there than bad ones. --Aquillion 23:45, 30 August 2007 (UTC)
Just wanted to add my agreement in the need for a better photograph, it is shockingly poor. Ryoutou 22:44, 9 November 2007 (UTC)

Shouldn't there be a c for circa for his birth place then Connemara written afterwards

[edit] The usual

I was born in England and lived there but i now live in Ireland. I am writing this because as an English person i would consider Peter Irish due to his beliefs. He even wears green socks for Irish luck (just mentioning that).89.124.89.62 23:06, 19 March 2007 (UTC)

What beliefs? Bill Tegner 21:35, 29 March 2007 (UTC)

i was only joking, i had a bet on that you would write back to this comment, i won 50 euro, thanks. And i am irish + i dont care where peter is from

[edit] Version 0.7

Peter O'Toole is certainly an important actor, but the article at present still needs a lot of work. Please can you renominate when it's had some more content and/or refs? The career section is (IMHO) the most important, but it needs a lot more content. In terms of style, much of it needs proper formatting (e.g., refs are mentioned in text, not cited), the lead is too short and the trivia section too long. Thanks! Walkerma 04:52, 19 July 2007 (UTC)

[edit] "Irish Yorkshireman"

would this term be a good compromise in regards to the long on-going debate? he is listed on the article at List of Yorkshire people#Actors--SalvoCalcio 06:36, 21 July 2007 (UTC)