Talk:Petard

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Quote:

Hamlet's actual meaning is "cause the bomb maker to be blown into the air with his own bomb," metaphorically turning the tables on Claudius, whose messengers are killed instead of Hamlet.

Doesn't that mean roughly the same as a hangman being hung with his own rope?

I have to second this observation, and was equally confused myself. Can anyone clarify what the major difference in usage is here? Mineralogy 08:44, 20 April 2006 (UTC)

Thirded. I really can't see the difference.

With Shakespeare's fondness for double entendre and dirty jokes, and the entymology of the word as given in the article, it suggests to me that Willie might have meant neither rope nor bomb, but something more flat(ulent).--Buckboard 02:10, 14 June 2006 (UTC)

you so funny 83.70.41.213 15:42, 24 July 2006 (UTC)

Contents 1 Spelling: petar 2 Animal Trap? 3 Spoiler? 4 Citations 5 Retard 6 Hoist 7 Etymology 8 Medieval 9 Maltese petards

[edit] Spelling: petar

Shakespeare's line was "...his own petar," so spelled.

[edit] Animal Trap?

The animal trap definition seems to be taken from here: http://www.straightdope.com/classics/a1_295b.html where Cecil Adams specifically denies it. Does anyone have a primary source for this usage?

[edit] Spoiler?

I'm not actually saying to remove it, but I find it more than a little ironic to have a spoiler warning for a pop culture play written 400 years ago. --Kaz 06:29, 1 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Citations

Now that the British Library has images of the original quartos online, we can read the early texts for ourselves. In the fifth quarto (1637, Garrick), on page 65 we do find "For ’tis the sport, to have the Enginer / Hoist with his owne petar, an’t shall goe hard …". This passage is apparently not yet found in the first quarto (1603, Halliwell–Phillipps).

In any event, the word is famous because of Hamlet, and yet the article has no reference section, nor even a precise citation of Hamlet, Act III, scene 4 (final speech in scene). --KSmrq^T 19:37, 31 July 2006 (UTC)

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Petards in Malta:

The article states that it is highly dangerous. This is not true as altough there is danger in this job when following certain rules accidents rarely happen. Danger is present in every type of fireworks manufacturing aroun the world. Also latley educated people are known to work in petards and fireworks, some of them have studied chemistry at the university. Also fireworks factories are set in rural areas away from buildings. People working in fireworks factories are all licenced to work there, with one of them being licensed as being responsabile for the foctory and all workers. Who works in these firework factories is obliged to leave any food, drink, cigarettes and lighters he brought with him in the 'kitchen' away from work is done. The factories are somtimes opened for exhibition before village fetas, where visitors especially tourists go to see the unexploded shells.

195.158.117.190 21:10, 23 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Retard

I removed the "Hoisted by his own retard" section. A claim of "entering pop culture" needs more clear support than a pun made in an article. Pjbflynn 16:23, 7 January 2007 (UTC)

I added the section back. While I agree with your claim that the section needs more support, it's worthwhile having there now until contributors can flesh it out more. --71.132.129.100 09:49, 16 January 2007 (UTC)

Removed. There is no indication that the claim of "entering the language" on a particular date is correct, and since the pun is obvious and not particularly interesting, it surely has been used before. It sheds no light on the word Petard, and is completely irrelevant. The entry as it stands simply says, in essence, "Once there was an article and this phrase was in it." - Corporal Tunnel 23:39, 6 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Hoist

The OED (CD, v3) disagrees with hoist being the past participle of hoise. It has been in use since 1548 (54 years before Hamlet) as "hoi[h]sted". Also, Shakespeare uses the same word as present tense in 1606 in Anthony & Cleopatra ("Let him take thee, And hoist thee vp to the shouting Plebeians"). I'm diking out the sentence describing this as past tense and duplicating it here. If anyone disagrees, they can reinsert it :

The verb "hoist" is an irregular past tense of the verb "hoise", meaning "raise" or "lift". The same form is used in "burn" and "burnt".

86.31.121.186 01:12, 22 May 2007 (UTC)

I would suggest that "hoist" in the phrase "hoist by his own petar(d)" does not necessarily mean that one is caught in the ropes to lift a petard beyond a gate or wall and lifted in that literal sense; rather, it would seem more likely that the "hoist" referred to here does indeed mean "raise / lift" as in lifted or thrown by the explosion of a petard detonated too early.

I can't imagine that an engineer being caught in the ropes of a petard that was being hoisted was a common occurrence, whereas a premature explosion due to a short or faulty fuse was probably quite common. I've made the change accordingly. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.145.105.18 (talk) 17:06, 17 September 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Etymology

"Etymology: Middle French, from peter, to break wind". Actually the word "pétard" exists in french (and nowadays means "firecracker") so the word almost certainly comes from the french "pétard", which itself was based on "péter" ("to fart", to be exact, but also slang for "to burst", "break", in today's french). As it is now, the article may lead one to believe "petard" was invented as an english word, ie, by the english, which it wasn't. Onaryc 17:49, 5 October 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Medieval

Really? I don't think so 128.86.168.207 (talk) 10:23, 23 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Maltese petards

The neutrality of the section on Maltese petards can be disputed Maltesedog (talk) 19:59, 1 May 2008 (UTC)

While I suspect that that the veracity of the comments may easily be confirmed, I do agree that they are not appropriate to what is, essentially, an etymological note. I will remove them. Malta seems to have a close relationship with gunpowder, was it not also the home of the fougasse (weapon)? Gaius Cornelius (talk) 12:00, 2 May 2008 (UTC)