Talk:Petar Petrović Njegoš

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[edit] Njegos: a Montenegrin?

  • I believe it would be fair enough to state Njegos as a Montenegrin poet, not a Serbian one, since he did write Gorski vijenac (and not Gorski venac, AFAIK). Gorski Vijenac gives 932 Google results, and Gorski Venac only 20. Serbs in Serbia use ekavica, but Montenegrins and those in dear Bosnia use ijekavica... Or, to make things NPOV, you could put Serbian and Montenegrin poet?!
    • Who wrote Ogledalo srpsko (Serb mirror)?
    • Serbian language recognises both ekavian and ijekavian as standard variants. Nikola 23:19, 24 Mar 2004 (UTC)
      • Language notwithstanding, the thing is that there is a Montenegrin culture (Yes, I'm partially one of them), and that Njegos was - at least - also a Montenegrin poet. I probably will change the page. And write an article about us (I just noticed that Montenegrins only redirects to Montenegro)... Muhamedmesic 19:22, 25 Mar 2004 (UTC)
        • Pardon me for asking/saying this but what are you doing with a surname like Mesić then? It doesn't even exist in Montenegro, let alone among the Mrkojevići, Biorci, Korićani, Pljevljaci etc. Igor
        • Yes, there is a Montenegrin culture, but that is a Serbian culture. Nikola 09:42, 26 Mar 2004 (UTC)
          • So are you saying that there are several Serbian cultures?
            • Of course there are. Serbs in Belgrade, Vojvodina, Southern Serbia, Bosnia, Chicago or Montenegro are all distinct. Nikola 07:35, 27 Mar 2004 (UTC)
          • I wouldn't think most Montenegrins would agree with you.
            • I think that most of them would. Nikola
          • Njegos was a Montenegrin, he spoke Montenegrin, he wrote Montenegrin. Being Orthodox doesn't automatically make him Serbian, does it? Muhamedmesic 17:07, 26 Mar 2004 (UTC)
            • Njegos was a Montenegrin, but he spoke Serbian, wrote Serbian, and was a bishop of Serbian Orthodox Church. Nikola 07:35, 27 Mar 2004 (UTC)

I have a quotation that I will add, need some help translating it from Montenegrin, maybe I could manage alone, without any help from Montenegrins such as the Mesici or Pavelici...

Име ми је Вјерољуб, Презиме ми Родољуб Црну Гору, рудну груду Камен паше одасвуду. Српски пишем и зборим Сваком громко говорим: Народност ми Србинска, Ум и душа Славјанска.

[edit] Njegos and Novak Kilibarda

I have changed Serbian/Montenegrin Cyrillic to Cyrillic. (Cyrillic is not Serbian or Montenegrin, it is a script used by many nations). Emir Arven 13:21, 25 November 2005 (UTC)

Yes, but there are many variants of Cyrillic. The one used here is Serbian Cyrillic. Nikola 13:42, 25 November 2005 (UTC)

I have changed Serb tribes to Montenegrin clans, according to Novak Kilibarda's writtings. Emir Arven 13:21, 25 November 2005 (UTC)

Why? Nikola 13:42, 25 November 2005 (UTC)

I also reverted deleted parts, because I didnt see an explanation for that action. Emir Arven 13:21, 25 November 2005 (UTC)

contrary to his will and testament, after the de facto annexation of Montenegro by Serbia in the aftermath of World War I? The chapel was destroyed by communists after World War II.
Of course, you have also changed "Serbian" to "Montenegrin", "Serb orthodox" to "Orthodox Chricstian" and deleted several quotes but you somehow don't mention it? Nikola 13:42, 25 November 2005 (UTC)
I said that I reverted deleted parts. Try to improve them not to delete the whole article according to Serbian mithology. I also have to say that my edits are according not just to Novak Kilibarda, but also according to a great Jevrem Brkovic, Marko Vesovic etc...Emir Arven 14:01, 25 November 2005 (UTC)
Emir, thanks for attempting to defend the NPOV, but in this case you're simply wrong. Njegos' own opinion is clearly worth more than all of those two bit scholars put together. He clearly states he is a Serb, his language is Serbian or Slavenoserbski or some variation thereof. You cannot apply modern concepts such Montengrin "nationality" and "language" to someone who lived 150 years ago. Njegos was not of Montenegrin nationality and to say so is simply wrong. Have you ever read Горски Вијенац? --estavisti 15:06, 27 November 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Dates of birth/death

Britannica claims November 13 1813 - October 31 1851

User:Emir_Arven, you didn't return the deleted parts! And please, explain your changes from Serbian Orthodox to Orthodox Christian? This refers to the Church. The Orthodox Church's name was called the Serbian Orthodox Church since 1217. :) I will return it. HolyRomanEmperor 17:06, 25 November 2005 (UTC)

Nothing is disputable. Besides, Nikila Kilibarda lives today and cannot change with his words what the people then did. HolyRomanEmperor 19:07, 25 November 2005 (UTC)

Nothing is disputable. Besides, Novak Kilibarda lives today and cannot change with his words what the people then did. HolyRomanEmperor 19:07, 25 November 2005 (UTC)

Novak Kilibarda, Marko Vesovic and Jevrem Brkovic, live today as you live today. They interpret history, as Serb historians do. They have their opinion, you have your opinion. So this is very disputable. --Emir Arven 20:03, 25 November 2005 (UTC)

My opinion is not important. Their opinion is not important. Neither is yours. Only of the people who lived then. If you attempt to find any sort of a source not being a modern nationalist clap-trap, but a historical evidence, Njegoš was a Montenegrin Serb. I am not interested in any opinion or a nationalist war, but only in historical facts. HolyRomanEmperor 21:24, 25 November 2005 (UTC)

Petar was elected as an honourable member of the Serb Literature Society: [1] and the Petrovich dinasty was none other than Serbian. It also inherited the claims to the Serbian Imperial pretensions. The full biography of Petar can be seen here: [2] which fully explains him being a Serb. In 1836 he wrote The ABC of Serbian and in 1838 The Serbian Grammar. The Petrovich dinasty is in every way a part of Serbian culture (and people) regardless if all, some or no citizens of Montenegro were Serbs. HolyRomanEmperor 21:36, 25 November 2005 (UTC)

Besides, Petar Petrović Njegoš is the father of modern Serbdom: [3] I must also point out that there are two factions in Montenegro: the separatists (20%) and the serbophils (30%) others are neutral. The Serbophils call proud for their Petrovich dinasty and cherish those ages of Montenegro as it was the Serbian heartland on Earth, see their official Njegos site: [4] HolyRomanEmperor 21:39, 25 November 2005 (UTC)

The source that you give is completely POV and not acceptable. It is the Serb mythological site. For instance I read there this sentence: "The Montenegrins belong to the Serbian branch of the South Slav peoples ... They speak the Serbo-Croat language, using the Cyrillic alphabet. In religion the majority traditionally belong to the Serbian Orthodox Church." I dont agree with this. I mentioned Jevrem Brkovic who completely denies this. He says this is just Serb propaganda which is common for Serb historians because many of them also claim the same thing for Croats and Bosniaks, which is incorrect. Emir Arven 22:54, 25 November 2005 (UTC)
Read for instance the article "MONTENEGRO: THE FIRST VICTIM OF GREATER SERBIAN" by Jevrem Brkovic who explains the situation about Serb nationalists who wants to impose their POV to every other nation in the Balkas. Emir Arven 23:02, 25 November 2005 (UTC)
But that Croatian site is totally neutral... Give me a break. I think I might know a just a tiny bit more about Montenegro than you, given the fact the I am Montenegrin. Your comments throughout this article are completely morally equivalent to the comments of Serbs would say that you yourself do not know who you are, that you are in fact a Serb. I find your views (and they are YOUR views, not the facts) extremely offensive. Pozdrav od crnogorsko-dalmatinsko-hervegovacko-beogradskog Srbina. --estavisti 15:24, 27 November 2005 (UTC)

Did I mention that the source was the official Petrovic page and of the Serbophil 35%-40% Serb Montenegrins? The NPOV is going down. HolyRomanEmperor 15:56, 28 November 2005 (UTC)

I have took a look at that article by Brkovic. It doesn't mention Njegos at all. Nikola 15:26, 2 December 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Emir Arven

To all: please use my article as a base to work from, this is the seond time I've corrected the same spelling/grammer mistakes.

Emir: Sorry about reverting your last edit, I was editing the article and didn't see you had updated it in the meanwhile. There are 3-4 people here who disagree with you, so instead of you constantly reverting the article, why don't we discuss the article here? If it's not too much trouble, please lay out your specific objections here. Thanks. --estavisti 18:23, 30 November 2005 (UTC)

Well, Emir Arven hates that Njegos was a Serb (it appears that he has a very high national hatred). It is simple as that. As you can see here, there is absolutly no dispute. So, I am removing the tag. HolyRomanEmperor 22:25, 30 November 2005 (UTC)

Try to improve controversy section, not to delete it. Emir Arven 18:30, 1 December 2005 (UTC)

What controversy section? HolyRomanEmperor 20:10, 1 December 2005 (UTC)

Emir, I see that you have put totallydisputed tag in the article. What facts stated in the article do you find inaccurate? What do you find to be not neutral? Nikola 15:21, 2 December 2005 (UTC)

I have explained everything above. Emir Arven 15:31, 2 December 2005 (UTC)
You only pointed to an article that puts absolutly no explaination. Be more specific. Tell me what do you not agree with, or just stop destroying the article. HolyRomanEmperor 15:56, 2 December 2005 (UTC)