Talk:Petah Tikva

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[edit] Romanized spelling

Going by the Hebrew, Petah Tikvah is not usually hyphenated, whereas Tel Aviv usually is in Hebrew. I see no reason to hyphenate it here. Danny

Apologies. I see that the municipal website does hyphenate it in Hebrew. It looks awful (to me), but I would have no problem reverting it if you want. Unfortunately, there is no standard convention. Danny

In the US system (BGN) it's "Petaẖ Tiqwa". In the UN system (GEGN) it's "Petaẖ Tiqva". Israel apparently doesn't have a system unless it's BGN. Google votes for "Petah Tikva". Google gives no clear answer about the hyphen, but as the Hebrew apparently doesn't use one (technically a maqaf), I wouldn't use a hyphen in English. Thank goodness this is a modern place name only, so we don't have to worry about medieval vocalization. Could we list under the Google name with the US and UN spellings as alternatives, and get rid of the rest? It looks like they're there only because of redirects. --Hoziron 03:31, July 20, 2005 (UTC)

I put in a bunch of those alternatives, mostly because they were ones I found on the internet, or even used by official Petah Tikva organizations. Jayjg (talk) 16:00, 20 July 2005 (UTC)

[edit] biggest/largest industrial zone

In the entry for Holon we read "Holon has the second biggest industrial zone in Israel after Haifa" For Petah Tikva "Petah Tikva is known for being the city with the second largest industrial sector in Israel (after Haifa)"


Which one is it????

I don't have a source but I believe Petah Tikva's industrial sector is larger than Holon's. Holon's article may be referring to the physical size of the industrial zone (although I think there are a few bigger ones, like in Rishon and that independent industrial zone in the north). I am also rather curious, now that you bring it up. -- Ynhockey (Talk) 14:05, 7 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Major Update of June 2006

(per User:Ynhockey's remarks on my User talk:D'n page) - Thanks for the timely review, and for catching the direct c&p's I left in. My intention had been to paraphrase and rework the section "marketing" the schools, but being human I forgot to do that at 6 am.

  • Pop & Area Stats in intro: I think we should follow the lead of other Israeli Cities pages (Kfar Saba, Tel Aviv, etc) and include population & area stats in the intro, despite the fact that we have an Israel muni infobox while the others don't. I have referenced the CSA so as not to appear as a c&p ;)
  • Other Stats: I can't find my way around the CSA site, to find demographic and economic data (mean annual income, rank in cost of living/ arnona). help!
  • Sports: I think we need a section on this, covering the three soccer stadia, the professional soccer and basketball teams, etc. I unfortunately know next to nothing about this subject, and hope someone else does.
  • Churches/mosques: I think I know the city pretty well, and I've never seen a church or mosque -- however, I have no other confirmation of my assertion that There are no churches or mosques within the city boundaries. -- could someone verify and/or correct this?
  • pix: I think there is room for the City Hall photo that's in the hebrew version. What's the best way to include it -- copy into Commons and change both inclusions, or can the pic be included from where it is now? Also, it would be good to include Ohion's photo; I'm wondering if the pic on the official website is public domain -- will have to check with the Iriyya on that
  • Founders: the official website has some photos of the Founders; due to their age, could they be considered public domain? One day Real Soon Now I'd like to do Wiki pages on Rav Yoel-Moshe Salomon, Rav Guttman, and Yehoshua Stampfer...
  • Women: Since the Jan 2006, the City has been running a publicity campaign on Important PT Women. It would be great to get over to the Iriyya and get both this info and p.d. pix of these Ladies
  • Helicopter Disaster: the memorial for the 1997 Israeli helicopter disaster is in Sirkin Base; is this relevant to mention?
  • Golden Lines: Golden Lines is in Segula though they have a technical division in K. Matalon

--- Ð’ntalk 12:16, 16 June 2006 (UTC)

  • Population - ok, but we should probably trim that. IMO, things like density and growth shouldn't go in the lead. Then again, any specific section we make for that will be too small.
  • Other stats - I have also been unable to find many other facts on the CBS webstie. I don't think they publish all stats every year. However, please provide a link to the end of 2005 population stats - I have been unable to find those too.
  • Sports - agreed, although I'm personally not interested in soccer or basketball, and don't know much about sports in Petah Tikva as a result.
  • Churches/mosques - I don't know of a single church or mosque either, but if you're not sure about this information, it should be removed until it's confirmed.
  • Pics - might want to move to Commons.
  • Founders/mayor pic - no idea about copyright status. Try checking with the iriya if you can.
  • Women - never heard of that. Any info you can provide will of course be appreciated.
  • Helicopter disaster - maybe it's more relevant to Kfar Sirkin.
  • Golden Lines - that may be rigth (and I may be wrong). However, I am sure they have part of an office building on HaSivim St.
-- Ynhockey (Talk) 12:28, 16 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Actually Worlds Largest Picnic?

I heard that they broke the record on Yom Haatzmaut (I was there but got there late and was therefore not counted), but I don't know of any sources that confirm or deny this. Anyone know of either? Valley2city 18:58, 17 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Important edits

Number One: I don't see why there need to be endless variations for spellings for every Hebrew city, plus something that comes out as an empty box on many people's computers. If the name is substantially different, like Safed and Tsfat, or Akko and Acre, then I can see the point, but not writing Petah Tikva in 100 different ways. Number Two: Em Hamoshavot should appear in the heading, translated as Mother of the Colonies. I have been translating books from Hebrew to English on this subject for 30 years. Number Three: The changes in the headings were made to reflect the actual content of what the section is about. Just because some other article on Wikipedia has a section called "leaders" (for example) doesn't mean that it fits for Petah Tikva. Same for the heading called "health." The article itself claims that P.T. has more medical centers than other cities. It does not say that people are more healthy. Number Three: Before removing my edits, maybe someone should compare them to the poor English they were meant to replace. Number Four: Yes, there is a difference between a professional editor and someone who is not, however good the intentions may be. Number Five: Petah Tikva has many interesting and historical sites that are not mentioned here and deserve to be. However, judging from the "welcome" until now, I would not even try to add to this site, because I would obviously be wasting my time. --Gilabrand 11:35, 22 May 2007 (UTC)

Hi Gilabrand. I'm glad you decided to talk this out instead of just leaving. I will address your points one by one:
  1. This avoids confusion, prevents editors from moving articles to ridiculous transliterations like Petakh Tiqva, and most importantly, isn't harmful because it's stashed away in the infobox on the right side of the page. Even if there was no good reason to keep these alternative transliterations, there definitely isn't any good reason to remove them.
  2. Yes, that would be fine, except for the word 'colony'. It is a highly politically-charged word in an Israel-related context, this was the basis for moving an entire major category from Settlements in Israel to Cities, towns and villages in Israel. Moshava has many translations other than 'colony', and in English Petah Tikva is always referred to as Mother of Settlements, not colonies (see also: relevant sections of WP:UE).
  3. This is an arguable point and I will not claim to have the definite answer. However, I believe that since Wikipedia is a work in progress, it is in the nature of Wikipedia to first create relevant sections in articles (as you would like to see them when the article is perfect) and then insert content into those sections according to what the heading is supposed to represent. Therefore, it shouldn't be a problem to have a main heading titled 'Health' and a sub-heading titled 'Hospitals and medical facilities' (or similar). The main heading should be broad though, for future edits (again, as for point #1, even if there was no good reason to keep the heading broad, there isn't a good reason to make its scope more narrow either).
  4. You only actually changed the grammar/style of one paragraph, and I didn't think it was a significant change and assumed it wouldn't be a big deal to revert it with the other edits which were not as good. If this is the main problem you have with my reverts, I will gladly restore your version of said paragraph.
  5. Might be, but credentials which cannot be verified should not be flashed on Wikipedia. If you're interested, I have also commercially translated many texts to English (though usually from Russian), but not for 30 years. I don't think it's relevant to the discussion on how to improve this article though. See also: Essjay controversy.
  6. Hopefully you will change your mind in the future. I live in this town and would like to see the article on it improved very much.
— Ynhockey (Talk) 12:19, 22 May 2007 (UTC)
I have just looked at your edits again and see another issue - while the lead you wrote has better English style, it is actually somewhat misleading. I mean this: Petah Tikva covers an area of 39 square kilometers (15 square miles) - this misleads the reader into thinking that the built-up Petah Tikva actually covers that area, while in reality it does not. This is just the jurisdiction (שטח שיפוט) of the city; the built-up area is much smaller. -- Ynhockey (Talk) 12:24, 22 May 2007 (UTC)
Agricultural colony is the term that was used in those days, while the word "settlement" is the one that is loaded with associations in Israel. We are talking about a moshava, not a hityashvut. Colonies were established at that time all over the world, and every "self-respecting" country had colonies - Dutch, English, French, etc. If you have a problem with a sentence not covering every sense of the meaning you intended, I understand that, but your response was a blanket revert of everything I had done - and that I don't accept. I am always ready to add info to get the point across, but not at the expense of writing incomprehensible English. In the 39 sq. kilometer sentence, for instance, instead of deleting the whole thing, you could have added the word "built-up," or whatever to refine the sentence. Also, I think that miles and kilometers are more than sufficient for conveying the area of a city. Dunams is an agricultural term that means nothing to most readers.--Gilabrand 12:41, 22 May 2007 (UTC)
I only worked on the first few paragraphs, but I think the paragraph about schools needs to be researched more thoroughly and based on solid references. Three hundred schools sounds to me like an incredibly exaggerated figure.

--Gilabrand 12:48, 22 May 2007 (UTC)

I agree that it should be researched better, although 300 doesn't seem exaggerated to me, because it includes pnimiyot, me'onot, heders, haredi schools, private schools, etc. It would be interesting to know however how many actual public schools there are - that would be a much smaller number of course. -- Ynhockey (Talk) 12:59, 22 May 2007 (UTC)

[edit] what does this mean?

Could someone please tell me what "fl. in Petah Tikva" means?--Gilabrand 06:06, 29 May 2007 (UTC)

I think it means 'flourished', which is relevant but I admit, strange. I support changing this to something more understandable. -- Ynhockey (Talk) 18:32, 29 May 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Fair use rationale for Image:PetahTiqwaLogo.PNG

Image:PetahTiqwaLogo.PNG is being used on this article. I notice the image page specifies that the image is being used under fair use but there is no explanation or rationale as to why its use in this Wikipedia article constitutes fair use. In addition to the boilerplate fair use template, you must also write out on the image description page a specific explanation or rationale for why using this image in each article is consistent with fair use.

Please go to the image description page and edit it to include a fair use rationale. Using one of the templates at Wikipedia:Fair use rationale guideline is an easy way to insure that your image is in compliance with Wikipedia policy, but remember that you must complete the template. Do not simply insert a blank template on an image page.

If there is other other fair use media, consider checking that you have specified the fair use rationale on the other images used on this page. Note that any fair use images uploaded after 4 May, 2006, and lacking such an explanation will be deleted one week after they have been uploaded, as described on criteria for speedy deletion. If you have any questions please ask them at the Media copyright questions page. Thank you.BetacommandBot 06:31, 6 June 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Photos

I live in Petah Tikva, and suppose that photos (Photos of Petah Tikva) added recently do not show anything that could appropriately represent modern look of Petah Tikva. Except, maybe, the bridge - but still photos of it could be better. Stansult 11:34, 3 October 2007 (UTC)

[edit] City Name

The official name is Petach Tikva - the name of the article should be changed accordingly. Deror 16:23, 4 December 2007 (UTC)

There is no "official" name in English. There are various transliterations, chosen by whatever secretary happens to be around when they print up the stationary. The current spelling is as good as any. There is no "het" in English, and no agreed upon equivalent for that. Some people write h, some people write ch, some people write x, some people write h with a dot under it. --Gilabrand 16:39, 4 December 2007 (UTC)
The Israeli Central Bureau Statistics uses the official transliteration of Petah Tiqwa, the municipality has a different "offical" version of Petach Tikva - it should be either of those and not the one currently used. Deror 16:49, 4 December 2007 (UTC)
Well, I disagree, for the reasons stated above. The spelling of Hebrew place names is entirely arbitrary. You will find the same name spelled ten different ways, even on the muncipality sites.--Gilabrand 17:15, 4 December 2007 (UTC)
The municipality wouldn't have registered the domain petah-tikva.muni.il if they didn't think this was the spelling at the time. However, Gilabrand makes an absolutely correct point when she says that the 'official' name is whatever is chosen by whatever secretary happens to be around at the time. When there's a clear official name, it can be used, but otherwise, see WP:COMMONNAME, as in this case. -- Ynhockey (Talk) 17:20, 4 December 2007 (UTC)