Talk:Perverted-Justice.com/Archive 1

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Contents

Perverted-justice.com are not active partners with policeworld.net.

Apparently this is becoming a problem.

User 67.169.194.181, please stop deleting information or links critical of the site. Neutrality means the detractors get their say too. Deleting criticism only makes the site's supporters look bad. Incidentally, you've also reached the 3-revert limit.

68.209.187.148 and others, please refrain from adding attacks against 67.169.194.181 or the supporters of the site to the article. That isn't the place for it.

Shimeru 23:55, Dec 23, 2004 (UTC)


Unfortunately, Xavier Von Erck (User 67.169.194.181), the owner of perverted-justice, continues to edit out or modify all information he sees as critical of his organization. The organization Corrupted-Justice.com has been instrumental in raising public awareness of the vigilante actions of perverted-justice. Members of Corrupted-Justice.com have been quoted in a number of major newspaper and magazine articles, interviewed by a number of national radio and television programs, and should be included in the list of "well known critics" of his organization. Yet whenever the organization's name is added to the "cons" section, Xavier returns to remove the entry.

Rather than becoming involved in Xavier's juvenile editing frenzy, I would suggest that "Corrupted-Justice.com" be added to the list of detractors, and the article be locked to prevent further defacement by Xavier. In my opinion, the version of the article from 03:15, 6 Jan 2005 is the most accurate and should be reverted to that revision and locked. The majority of updates after that point were revisions by Xavier himself to remove or alter legitimate criticisms.

19:05, Jan 6, 2005 (EST)

The amusing thing is that the leader of Corrupted-Justice.com continues to try to edit out links to Corrupted-Justice.net, a site that has revealed that CJ.com is actually founded by pedophiles and those who espouse hacking PJ.com. The last updates by the 216 IP have consistently tried to remove positive links as well as claim that "Xavier Von Erck" is actually some other guy, claims that have no external backing.

I recommend that the article be protected and completely rewritten by an actual Wikipedia person rather than the litany of IP's have that come in to try to bash the organization. This is a directed, concerted effort to slam the largest and most pro-active anti-pedophile group in the nation. Basically, the pedophiles are trying to overrun Wikipedia.

In examining the "history" tab of the page, it is readily apparent that the "216" IP address has not removed a single link from the article. One only needs to look at the "differences" links to see that the "216" IP address ADDED a link to Corrupted-Justice.com, and ADDED a number of lines of factual information. No links were removed by IP 216.

Accusations that a site was "founded by pedophiles" and "espouse hacking" could be considered fairly serious defamation against myself, the founder and owner of the site. One would think anyone making such serious allegations would be willing to back up their accusation by publicly stating their actual identity and providing evidence of the accusations, otherwise their statement is simply a baseless anonymous accusation with no basis in fact, designed to defame.

On closer examination of the "history" tab of the article, one will note that the majority of edits were done by IP 67.169.194.181. This is the IP address belonging to Xavier Von Erck, the owner of PJ. (I have a number of e-mails from Xavier bearing the same IP address in the headers) The vast majority of the edits by Xavier were done to remove facts which appeared to oppose or discount PJ's legitimacy, in direct violation of Wikipedia's policy of maintaining a "Neutral Point Of View".

"Neutral point of view, or the agreement to report subjective opinions objectively, so as not to cause edit wars between opposing sides. As a verb, to remove biased statements or slanted phrasing. As an adjective, it indicates that an article is in compliance with Wikipedia's NPOV policy."

On re-reading the article, it is blatently apparent that a considerable number of edits and reversions have been done which have completely removed the NPOV and slanted it primarily in favour of PJ's legitimacy. Unfortunately, 67.169.194.181 does not appear to be heeding the advice of Shimeru above, and continues to remove factual criticisms and links to or mentions of legitimate detractors. On a positive note, this revisionist agenda is readily apparent to anyone reviewing the history of changes to the article, thereby providing valuable insight into the methods used by PJ supporters to ensure only their point of view is visible.

Scott Morrow - 07 Jan 2005 - 18:00 (EST)

admin@corrupted-justice.com

The idea that Scott Morrow represents a "neutral point of view" is amusing.

Now they have taken to removing media links, removing links to a website called "Corrupted-Justice.net" which exposes Morrow's group as a fraud and removing content illustrating the vast work Perverted-Justice.com does with law enforcement.

It really is time for this article to be rewritten by Shimeru, the only impartial person to come around, before being protected so that Morrow and his goon squad of pro-pedophiles doesn't continue to screw with it. Shimeru and I agreed on a version that left criticism and pro- arguments in. Now the pro-pedophiles are attempting to take it completely over.

Lives, get, really.

I am a casual reader of Wikipedia and also a supporter of Perverted-Justice.com. While being pro-PJ might make me "biased", I do not believe that the edits organized and made by Scott Morrow are any less biased. In fact, I believe XavierVE is making a good decision in trying to preserve the original article and add to it. I made a plea to the Wikipedia people offering a fair resolution: let Morrow author his own Wikipedia entry for his own site, where he can add whatever criticisms he wants, and please have Shimeru come back and resubmit an article that is fair towards the subject in question: Perverted-Justice.com. Morrow is exaggerating his grievances here in this forum and I believe he is organizing multiple users from his own website to instigate this attack on the Perverted-Justice.com Wikipedia entry. I implore readers to consider that at any given time until this is resolved, the entry may be factually incorrect or in dispute. I've seen erasing of positive-PJ comments and media links, but to see the same people who make those changes come in here and try to get the only person adding pro-PJ comments banned is disgusting.

Just the ramblings of a Wiki reader...

Response from Scott Morrow

I am not sure why XavierVE and his staff continue to attribute malicious edits to me.

It should be noted that most of the edits being attributed to me are NOT in fact me. I have not "organized multiple users" to do any editing, and in fact am not aware of anyone from our organization (other than me) who is even aware of this article. Attributing multiple edits to a conspiracy initiated by me is ridiculous. I have no responsibility for what edits are done by others who are anti-PJ. I have not spoken with anyone regarding the article, and I have not suggested to anyone that the article should be edited.

An examination of the article history will clearly show that I have made minor edits to include the name of our organization in the list of vocal critics of PJ (which XavierVE has continuously removed), added a link to our site, and removed "PRO" statements regarding PJ from the "CONS" section in an attempt to bring the article into a more NPOV. That's it! Edits which were not carried out by "Scott Morrow" or (or IP 216.106.* before I was registered) were not done by me, and were not done as a result of any organized "attack". I have removed NO links at all in any of my edits.

On the opposite side of the spectrum, please examine the edits made by XavierVE, both under that name and IP 67.169.194.181 (his IP before being registered) - Note multiple additions of malicious accusations, bordering on outright defamation. In addition, his continuous reversions of the information regarding the reason for the denial of the harassment restraining order in the "cons" section are patently incorrect and biased. (I have a PDF copy of the actual judge's response which states that the order was primarily denied due to jurisdictional issues. If there is a way to "attach" such things to Wikipedia articles, I will be more than happy to do so) XavierVE continues to revert uncomplimentary information which was added in good faith.

There are MANY people who disagree with PJ's tactics, and they are not all members of our organization. Attributing all non-complimentary edits of the Wikipedia article to "pro-pedophiles" is an indication of XavierVE's lack of maturity. A review of the history of this discussion will reveal the fact that he has even maliciously edited comments made here in an attempt to discredit those who disagree with him. All those who disagree with PJ's tactics are labeled "pro-pedophile". Being anti-vigilante does not automatically make one "pro-pedophile". Similarly, because many people disagree with PJ's tactics and feel the need to edit the article, these edits should not be attributed to ME, or to some conspiricy initiated by Corrupted-Justice.com when this simply is not the case.

I would also be in agreement with a complete re-write of the article by a disinterested 3rd party. It is patently obvious that all attempts to show the opposing view of PJ will be hijacked by XavierVE, and should therefore be protected.

Scott Morrow 14:02, 9 Jan 2005 (UTC)

Once again, Scott Morrow lies.

IP: 217.172.71.27 - Corrupted-Justice.com volunteer "Trex" aka Jeffrey Woloson.

IP: 163.178.18.3 - Proxy edit to revert to Morrow's "version" of the truth, which removes proper external links and content from the "pro" area.

IP: 217.116.4.156 - Corrupted-Justice.com volunteer "Trex" aka Jeffrey Woloson

IP: 213.92.99.73 - Corrupted-Justice.com volunteer "Trex" aka Jeffrey Woloson. This edit was reverted to the last reversion I did (which INCLUDES a bevy of criticism INCLUDING a link to Corrupted-Justice.com AND corrupted-justice.net. The link to .net is the actual reason they're trying to delete all the proper external links) by a third-party observer from Wikipedia. Why? Because the person maliciously changed links to Perverted-Justice.com's FAQ and other external links to a CJ.com-backed organization called AVSO, which is run by a German skinhead.

IP: 209.88.128.9 - Another proxy. Are most Wikipedia articles edited by proxies? Nope. Why would the various "Trex" IP's and the various proxies all revert the article to the same version? Gee, I wonder why.

IP: 65.60.119.164 - Another proxy

I have continually called for the article to be re-written by Shimeru (although considering that he and I agreed on a version in principle, not much re-writing will need to be done) and protected. I'm glad Morrow shares this wish, because up-until-now his juvenile "war" of editing a balanced, NPOV article is silly. Why he and his people feel the need to take out proper links showing the full extent of Law Enforcement work that Perverted-Justice.com does is beyond me. His insistence that his website be added to the "well-known" critics area is likewise silly, as his site is not well-known to anyone other than pedophiles facing criminal charges due to the work of Perverted-Justice.com.

I strongly believe in Wikipedia. I have linked to this site from my personal homepage from the beginning. In addition, when I was emailed by the original wikipedia author asking permission for him to write the piece, I said yes. I didn't tell him what to write, I didn't even give him talking points. I said "Great, a wikipedia article" and that was the extent of it. Only with vandalization and NPOV did I come to try to edit the piece. When Shimeru complained about my early reversions, I went directly to him, we spoke, I did some additions and we agreed that the piece was then quite good. It is only Morrow and his organization of pedophile-defenders and enablers that is causing this conflict today.

You will have to protect the piece, because they won't stop screwing with it until you do. Attempting to use Wikipedia to further themselves is the lowest thing I've seen them do since it was revealed that Corrupted-Justice.com founder Matt Carpenter advertised for buying used children's diapers. Disgusting.

Passin' through

I came by to read this article and the talk page because of the reference on Slashdot. I'm now stopping only long enough to give my thoughts, as a longtime Wikipedian with no dog in this fight. I'm reading the version as of 20:40, 9 Jan 2005, immediately after an edit by EvilSaltine. My impression is that the article (in this version, at least) is definitely slanted in favor of Perverted-Justice.com. Some observations:

  • In "Controversy", the "Pros" section is all Pros. The "Cons" section has one Con graf, then a graf that's Con with a one-sentence Pro rebuttal at the end, then a graf with one Con sentence and a lengthy Pro rebuttal, then a graf with one sentence each way. Suggestion: Either have all Pros in one section and all Cons in another, with no rebuttals allowed, or, if you want the back-and-forth argument, organize by issue instead of by alignment.
  • Supporters who are cited "point out" this or "make clear" that. This choice of words implies that what they say is true. Wikipedia hasn't investigated these claims and should merely report them, not endorse them. Supporters and opponents alike should be said to "claim" this, "argue" that, "allege" the other thing, etc.
  • Say, did you know that an abducted girl was recovered because of the site? It's a fact worth mentioning. It's not a fact worth mentioning three different times. Mention it once, preferably with a link to a disinterested media website where I can read more details. (Is it undisputed that her recovery was because of the site? I'd think that, without violating her privacy, it should be possible to include a sentence explaining what the mechanism was.)
  • An earlier version had a link to a chatmag article critical of the site. Why was that deleted?
  • Trying to stabilize one particular version of the article and carve it in stone isn't the wiki way. I suggest that everyone who wants to edit the article should register a user account. There seems to have been a lot of energy wasted in bickering about who wrote what. Anons should be warned that edits by anonymous IP's will be coldly received and are more likely to be reverted. That isn't completely in keeping with a purist, fundamentalist view of the wiki way, but it's much less of a heresy than is permanent page protection.

OK, unsolicited advice mode off; I'm going back to the relative serenity of reverting vandals on George W. Bush. Good luck, all. JamesMLane 22:37, 9 Jan 2005 (UTC)

I agree that the article needs NPOVing. - Evil saltine 07:04, 10 Jan 2005 (UTC)

Response from Scott Morrow

As usual, XavierVE should check his facts before running around shouting "liar". That fact that he is so quick to make assumptions and incorrect accusations is precisely the reason why the article is so slanted (as noted also by JamesMLane) and has been since XavierVE became involved in editing it. It is also precicely why many consider his organization to be a dangerous one. His investigative prowess is being displayed in his assigning blame for the edits of the article to the wrong person. This is typical of XavierVE's work.

"Jeffery Woloson" is no longer a volunteer with Corrupted-Justice.com, and has not been since November of last year. If he were making edits to the article, he would have been doing it of his own accord. Unfortunately, XavierVE's detective skills are somewhat lacking, and he is again blaming the wrong person. Jeff Woloson/Trex is not making the edits XavieVE is complaining about. Having also examined the IPs in question, I would strongly suggest that XavierVE re-check his facts. The user Trex upon which XavierVE is so quick to heap blame uses a static IP - 81.59.40.170. The edits in question are NOT being done by Trex. A number of the IPs quoted by XavierVE above belong to another outspoken critic of PJ, one who has no ties to Corrupted-Justice.com at all. In addition, assuming an edit via a proxy should automatically be attributed to me, or a member of our organization is patently childish.

I had originally intended to add a juvenile response to the end of my post with some unfounded defamatory accusations and a few names of PJ contributors and the owner tossed in for good measure, but then I remembered, I'm an adult, and adults don't generally do that sort of thing.

Scott Morrow 00:06, 10 Jan 2005 (UTC)

All I have to say is, how typical of the guys at Corrupted-Justice. For those of you who are wondering who these guys are who are bashing Perverted-Justice. You might should ask yourself what their motives may be in attacking a group that combats pedophiles? The first thing that came to my mind when I first heard of them, perhaps they're pedophiles? If you think that, you're right. They just have a bad taste in their mouth. (this was from an anonymous user).

Quotes from my discussion with Shimeru...

Unfortunately, Morrow has a few of his precious "facts" wrong as usual.

This edition is not unbalanced due to anything I'VE done. All I did was edit the pro- section and the links and add a commonly used "accomplishments" area. Unfortunately, I've had to revert because of your vandals, Scotty, but otherwise I haven't touched to Con section other than to not list Cyberangels three times and to combine "Peter Carr" with "Chatmag.com." The reason I'm reverting now is because they keep trying to remove proper links. Funny enough, the link they seem so intent on removing is to corrupted-justice.net, an organization critical of Corrupted-Justice.com. Yet, it's not Corrupted-Justice.com members doing it, the people doing it just happen to be using proxies! Oh and Trex, an CJ.com volunteer from Amsterdam. Morrow claims this person is no longer a volunteer, which is incorrect. The person still frequently appears on their boards. Since CJ.com doesn't have an official "volunteer list", anytime one of their people goes rogue (Such as the founder who advertised for baby diapers, or the "psychological expert" who fancied writing erotica about high school females), Morrow claims they "no longer volunteer."

My edits were viewed by Shimeru, who I believe is the original author of this piece. After some confusion about what he was annoyed about, I left the cons alone and focused on the pros. He said, and I quote:

Given that there were several other people also reverting your changes on the same grounds, you might want to ask yourself whether your version was really as unbiased as you thought. On the other hand, I have no objection to your additions, now that you're not also deleting relevant (if negative) information. I'm reasonably satisfied with the page as it now stands... maybe we just needed to communicate sooner. Well, no harm done

This is from his talk page: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:Shimeru

I know Morrow isn't that smart (He's never recovered from his brain tumor, sadly), but claiming that an article is "biased" due to my edits when I took the proper steps to have them reviewed is pure falsehood. I might even suggest he is "lying" when he states such.

Now if someone wants to edit the CONS section to take out any positive verbiage, go ahead and do it. Or perhaps ADDING to the links section, again, go nuts. But deleting proper external links and elements from the pro- section without reason or rationale isn't appropriate.

Additionally to answer the other question, the recovery of the female IS linked from the version we have been restoring... oddly enough, the "other" CJ.com version has them removed. Goofy.

This is the anonymous person who commented before, I didn't leave my name because I haven't registered on Wikipedia and don't feel like I need to be involved in this conflict to air my opinion. It is also my understanding that Corrupted-Justice.com has privately harassed advocates of Perverted-Justice.com so the less information left about me the better. I would like to add some more comments though please, and I have not (and will not) be involved in the constant edits to this Wiki article, so this is just my observation for those reading to consider.

First, some observations for JamesMLane who made a comment earlier. If there are fairly worded criticisms to add to the "Pro" section, then I could understand revision. However, the "Pro" section has been edited constantly to remove "Pro" comments, and the list of accomplishments by Perverted-Justice.com should've remained unedited (unless someone can present a valid reason for removing them). These ARE being changed by anonymous edits. Likewise, and this is probably just because you aren't familiar with the websites involved, Corrupted-Justice.net is a resource directly addressing the criticisms of Corrupted-Justice.com as it pertains to Perverted-Justice.com. It is an entirely relevant source of opinion and should cease being removed from the list of External related links.

Second, to Mr. Morrow. The article has been edited over and over by proxies to things explicitely favorable to the Corrupted-Justice.com's POV. For instance, why would the CJ.net links disappear every time someone edits the post? Likewise, there are people who are editing the "History" section to read a speculated name of Xavier Von Erck, this is entirely a point of view pushed by CJ.com as no one has ever verified or claimed outside their circles his real legal title. I think it's unfair to have your cronies re-edit this article over and over again to add a name that is not factually substantiated and tieing it to Xavier Von Erck, who, by all accounts, is anonymous.

Third, for the author. Please step in and rectify these problems. Corrupted-Justice.com is attempting to organize to negatively paint this organization which has many credits to it's name, and it's doing so in a way that is offensively trying to exploit the Wiki process (trying to get the only pro-PJ revisioner banned so they can domineer the content of the article). That Corrupted-Justice.com and Scott Morrow has attempted to alter all of the criticisms towards it's own sources, to promote it's own sites, it's own narrow POV on Perverted-Justice.com, not only overshadows outstanding valid criticisms, but it abuses the open-ended nature of the Wiki. This is not the entry in Wikipedia for "Corrupted-Justice.com" and their POV should not be the one pushed here. I read Wiki from medlab every time I get an opportunity to, and being familiar with this situation, it is ridiculous.

Please inspect this edited comparison for an example of bias on the part of pro-Corrupted-Justice.com people. Notice erasure of several paragraphs of content and the addition of a "real name" to the anonymous psuedonym "Xavier Von Erck", as if it were a statement of fact (this is an explicitely CJ.com point of view, as are others reflected in the edits).

http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Perverted-Justice.com&diff=0&oldid=9244528

My complaints, specifically, to help illustrate the problem:

Editing in the supposed "real name" of Xavier Von Erck with no particular proof, as he is an anonymous individual.

This paragraph being removed: "The website states that it is proud to be the only resource on the internet that shows parents the exact reality of what occurs in chat-rooms across the United States. Site supporters argue and believe that the uncensored information educates parents quickly to the dangers of the internet for their children. Additionally, the website is quick to point out that it uses Meta Tag technology to block the website on every effective piece of internet filtration software known to exist. Considering the hundreds of media pieces about the organization and efforts dedicated to fight online chat solicitation, site supporters tout that tens of millions of American families now have a better understanding of internet dangers."

If this paragraph is disagreed with, it can be revised to be reworded, but instead was deleted altogether. The information on Meta Tags is important, as well as the site's supporter's comments, and should've never been deleted. Unfortunately this was all deleted by an Amsterdam IP (CJ.com member Trex lives in Amsterdam).

The revision of the number of busts in PJ.com history: "800" is more accurate than "700".

Removal of external links, such as:

The Steve Tupper arrest link. (someone CJ.com has been in contact with and is aiding) The Cincinatti Post link regarding Robert Andrews, arrested. (someone CJ.com has been in contact with and is aiding) Removal of the Corrupted-Justice.net link (counterpoints to the CJ.com criticisms that have been added, and thus, should be valid for counterpoint) Removal of the Dateline NBC link (Dateline isn't a relevant link???) Removal of the Benjamin Brown arrest link. (again, another person CJ.com has aided gets arrested, and the link to the media story is censored).

All these removal of external links are being goaded on by user Scott Morrow and his Corrupted-Justice.com staff. The removal of the external links especially illustrates this as content non-complimentary to Morrow's own negative viewpoint of CJ.com is being censored. If you want to add NPOV commentary to the page, fine. However that this is happening while Morrow denies all knowledge of it being him, at the same time, attempting to get XavierVE banned for correcting it, is absurd and against the way of the Wiki. There, hopefully I've made my case. Thanks for listening.

"The revision of the number of busts in PJ.com history: "800" is more accurate than "700"." Is there a source for this? I couldn't find one for either number. If a source can't be found, I would favor leaving it as "a very large number of "busts."". - Evil saltine 03:28, 10 Jan 2005 (UTC)
I went and asked a site admin about this, Pheobus Apollo, so for the record this is what he told me: The current website has 592 busts in it's database, and there have been three phases of major bust loss. In August 2003 they got a policy to verify all phone numbers, so all busts older than August 2003 were in the site's early phase where they didn't have the manpower/resources to verify every phone number. Around July of this year they finally decided those old busts had run their course (August 2003 to July 2004 is quite some time), and culled everything older than August 2003, he said this lost about 180 busts. Likewise, a site scandal with the co-founder Tattooed Indian Guy (aparently he was abusive to another volunteer) caused him to be removed from the site, and Apollo said that they also flushed his materials which were about 60 busts. Apollo also said when they moved from the oldest version of the site to the domain name database, that there was a loss of about 100 very old busts which were never properly re-archived. He told me the official number is the number you will find in the site, 592 (there is a little counter on the front page which is automatically updated), but adding all those numbers up, you can get considerably more counting these old files no longer on the site (possibly over 900). That's all I know, maybe "a very large number of 'busts'" is suitable enough :))

Proposal

working on this.. feel free to edit - Evil saltine 03:21, 10 Jan 2005 (UTC)

Issues

Veracity of accusations

Argument: Pro

Supporters of the site argue that viewers are given the opportunity to read chat logs of the online encounters with the men and decide for themselves on their intents. Also, the site mentions whether each alleged potential victimizer was contacted by phone or seen at the location agreed upon, largely confirming their true intentions. This removes the idea that someone will be able to "fake" being another person, as the phone number is one of the many means of identifying the actual participant in the chat-log. Additionally, the site allows men with information posted about them the "right of reply" in defense of or apologetic admission of their wrongdoings, and it will also occasionally — though very seldom — remove information on certain men after they show positive, compelling reasons for such removal, such as receiving psychological counseling. Additionally, the organization has won a thanks from the Department of Justice in the Ryan Hogan federal case and from other police around the country, most notably a effusive letter from the Port Huron Police Chief in Michigan.

The administrators of the website state that they:

  • Do not initiate the online contact with the men,
  • Do not accept tips from Internet users, to eliminate the chance that someone use the site for vengeful purposes, and
  • Make an attempt to contact law enforcement on every chat-log they do.
  • Established their "Information First" police program in December of 2003, which now covers 98 million Americans across the nation. Information First agreements are with specific police who would like the chat-logs delivered to law enforcement before anyone else for possible policework.
  • Have been credited with assisting in obtaining six convictions since June of 2004, and was able to locate an abducted girl in September of 2004.
  • Are active partners with ChildSeek Network, Counter Pedophilia Investigative Unit and PoliceWorld.net.

Argument: Con

At the heart of the protest of Perverted-Justice.com is a right to privacy issue — the fact that Perverted-Justice.com displays photos and lists names, addresses, telephone numbers, instant messenger usernames, email addresses, schools, and workplaces of the men that have been accused by the group of trying to seduce or lure teenagers through the Internet, while keeping its own contributors anonymous. Critics of the site believe that the opportunity for someone to be innocently accused of being an Internet predator is large, especially since an individual could use a computer, online account, or any of the items listed above not actually belonging to him or her.

Legality

Argument: Pro

The only legal record of action against Perverted-Justice.com was an attempt at a harassment restraining order against two of the site's contributors in Minnesota by the mother of a man named Thomas Cison who asked a female to model thongs for him. The judge found that because the alleged harassment originated from out of state, the Minnesota court did not have the power to enforce, not to mention that in his opinion there was no harassment, he threw the Harassment Restraining Order out, rejecting all claims. Additionally, Jonathan Zittrain, of Harvard Law School, has claimed in interviews with the Boston Globe and Court TV that the site is completely legal.

The judge found that because the alleged harassment originated from out of state, the Minnesota court did not have the power to enforce, not to mention that in his opinion there was no harassment, he threw the Harassment Restraining Order out, rejecting all claims.

The words of this statement up to the word "enforce" are true, but the words after that word "enforce" are a boldfaced lie. The judge said Cison's definately had a case but should take it to the federal level, not the state, because Philip Eide (von Erck) and Beef The Troll and Red Baroness (Jim and Tobi Schwietzer) lived out of state. He did not dismiss the harasment issue, because the Cison's received, among other threats, a death threat. They have the proof from a taped recording of the message recieved in their home on May 5, 2004.

Argument: Con

Some legal scholars raise questions of entrapment or illegal activity on the part of Perverted-Justice.com's contributors. Critics often cite the lack of training in proper procedures of evidence could result in true predators being allowed to escape prosecution as a result of being contacted by the group before real law enforcement is involved.

Many law enforcement agencies have also stated that, while they appreciate the mission of the web site, they do not agree with some of its vigilante practices.

Effectiveness

Argument: Pro

Supporters state that large-scale operations working with police are relatively new and claim that six convictions in seven months is a very good track record to have.

The website states that it is proud to be the only resource on the internet that shows parents the exact reality of what occurs in chat-rooms across the United States. Site supporters argue and believe that the uncensored information educates parents quickly to the dangers of the internet for their children.

Considering the hundreds of media pieces about the organization and efforts dedicated to fight online chat solicitation, site supporters tout that tens of millions of American families now have a better understanding of internet dangers.

Argument: Con

Some critics contend that the site's methodology is flawed, citing its low success rate — six convictions versus over a large number of "busts."

It is now common knowledge that Xavier Von Erck is what he chooses to be called.

People come here for information, and you are censoring it. Xavier, if you are so gung-ho about keeping your real name out of this entry, then the onus is on you to prove that it is erroneous.

It's also common knowledge that Steve Poirier is Ombudsman, right?

People who think they know everything amuse me.

The articl was created by me, Antonio, using the wikipedia guidelines of neutrality. In other words, while I like the idea of the site,whether I am for it or against it and it's methods, should be irrevelant.

The only thing that should be revelant to articles is facts. Instead of going to a revert war, why not just make peace and stay with the facts in both articles?

I want to thank Mr. Von Erck for stating I spoke to him before making the article. This is true, as I asked for permission and inquired about how he'd like an article about pervertedjustice.com here.

Was the corruptedjustice article written by a neutral wikipedian, or by a member of that organization? We need to investigate. Im sure that, if taken to court, both sides would have their valid points against each other, but wikipedia is not a court, here, we merely, and should always, merely stick to facts.

Thank you and God bless you!

Sincerely yours, "Antonio Diplomatic w*ore Martin"

I'd personally love to see the article redone by either you or Shimeru or a combination. However, I think the viability of having a non-protected article up about the website is nil with the obsessiveness of the corrupted-justice.com pro-pedophiles.

http://abcnews.go.com/US/story?id=260587&page=1 This is an insightful article from ABC news highlighting the flaws and ineptitude of perverted-justice.com. It should be included in this Wikipedia entry. Amusingly enough, perverted-justice.com is now asserting that ABC News has a pro-pedophile agenda.

Pete Carr of Chatmag here. Within the Wikipedia article, the name of Johnathan Zittrain, a leading authority and law professor at Harvard, was mentioned. "On the legal front, Jonathan Zittrain, of Harvard Law School, has claimed in interviews with the Boston Globe and Court TV that the site is completely legal."

Earlier today, I emailed Dr. Zittrain, requesting a clarification of his status reference Perverted Justice. He states that he is in no way connected to the site, and his remarks were posted on the Boston Globe, in an article concerning Perverted Justice. Text of the article is attached, and can be verified through the Boston Globe. The owner of Perverted Justice leads viewers of the Wikipedia site and his site to believe Dr. Zittrain has endorsed his group as a legal entity. This is patently false. Please examine the Boston Globe article for further clarification.

VIGILANTE WEBSITES COMBAT SOLICITATION OF MINORS FOR SEX By Marc Daniel, Globe Staff

"But the vigilante group may not be liable as long as the information posted is correct, said Jonathan Zittrain, assistant professor of law at Harvard Law School and a director of its Berkman Center for Internet and Society.

Otherwise, if they are posting true and legitimate online conversations involving adults soliciting alleged underage children for sex, Zittrain said "no immediate cause of action jumps to mind."

But "entrapment only really has meaning in the context of a criminal charge brought against somebody," Zittrain said. Entrapment laws are meant to check the excesses of government power. But if groups exposing people are doing so on their own and not as an arm of any governmental agency, he said, entrapment issues don't tend to apply.

Such sites, he said, are part of a transformation that the Internet is bringing about "that blurs the line between casual conversation and official statement. And at its extreme, it has everyone speaking like lawyers - if they're smart."

End of Boston Globe Article.

I've also passed this information on to ABC. Nowhere in Dr. Zittrain's remarks do I see any endorsement of Perverted Justice. His remark, "not as an arm of any governmental agency" goes against the stated purpose of Perverted Justice, to be an arm of law enforcement, and therefore subject to the same governing statutes law enforcement must obey, including entrapment laws.

It's sad that this has become a shouting match between opposing entities, with mud slinging on both sides. It's time that end, let the legal system deal with the validity of Perverted Justice, and delete this entire article. It now has the distinction in my mind of being a prime example of what a Wiki article should not be. ENDS (unsigned)

This page reads like a commercial

The page looks like a commercial for the organizaton, in my view. It definitely needs some balancing, and whoever's calling people "pro-paedophile" for saying that should probably be asked to stop editing it for awhile, because perhaps those strong feelings are causing him or her not to see the article's flaws. It doesn't do the organization any good to have the article look like this, because it's not well-written and is obviously biased, so it's likely to make readers suspicious, both of Perverted Justice and of Wikipedia. Just my opinion. SlimVirgin 22:01, Jan 10, 2005 (UTC)

If Peter Carr could read well, he would see that nobody said Howard endorsed the site, but only that what the site does is legal.

Nice try, Pete.

As for the piece being a "commercial" for the organization, point out anything in the pro- or external links area that is incorrect factually, with sources. Since the "con" and "pro" areas are the same size, one has to wonder how it would appear unbalanced. There are links to anti- and pro- information, and once it's off protection, the ABCnews.com piece should of course go in there. PeeJ has not accused ABCnews.com of being pro-pedophile, but have pointed out inaccuracies and lies by a Jeff Woloson, a man who has gone on record defending those who seek relations with twelve year olds.

I've said all along that the article should be rewritten by either the original author or Shimeru. However, watching people put on proxies and edit it to remove information is simply wrong, and not in the spirit of anything Wikipedia has ever done. It's sad that people have to come and hide their identities and true reasons for editing the piece. I have not done so. I could have put on a proxy and edited it a thousand times, hell, I could have put on a proxy and removed the cons section entirely. Look over the history of the piece. Morrow's people have slapped on proxies to try to do damage to the article.

Further thoughts...

I see the article's protected now. I'd hoped it wouldn't come to that.

I am not, incidentally, the original author of the article, just so that's clear. I'm also not affiliated in any way with PJ, nor with any of its critics. I just came across the article, did some cleanup work, and added it to my watchlist, as I do with most of the articles I change significantly.

The quote attributed to me above is true. I don't feel that version of the article was the ebst possible article, but I was reasonably happy with it in terms of NPOV. It's always possible to do more.

Evil Saltine's proposed changes to the Pro/Con section above, for instance, strike me as very well designed. He's separated the pros and cons more clearly and structured them according to individual points of contention.

As far as the rest of the article... I think what we're striving for with NPOV is akin to journalistic style. What that means, in regards to some of the points of argument, is:

  • "Xavier's" real name: This is relevant to the site and should be a part of the article — if it can be confirmed by a reliable source. There should be a citation for this source. If it cannot be confirmed, then it is speculation. Speculation should not be a part of the article in most cases. If there is substantial circumstantial evidence (with citations), then it may be reported — but in this case it must be presented as speculation. In any case, "Xavier" should be noted as a pseudonym.
  • Links: Some of these are relevant; others are redundant. This section should probably be trimmed somewhat. For instance, on the currently-protected version, there are four separate links to www.perverted-justice.com — one to the site, and three to subpages from the site. This is excessive. I would eliminate the "Guide" and "FAQ" links, and move the "convictions by month" one to the "pro" section as a citation. I'm of two minds about listing Corrupted-Justice.com; it's relevant, as a critical site, but the wording of the link seems unnecessarily antagonistic. Better to list the site title and a brief note stating that it's a site critical of PJ, I think. On the other hand, that brings up Corrupted-Justice.net, which has a lot to do with CJ.com, but might be out of place in this article; a site designed to discredit a site designed to discredit PJ is getting a bit removed from PJ itself. The various news links, at least, are fine, especially since many of them are also sources.
  • Number of "busts": The 700 number was mine, drawn from one of the news articles (I believe the Phoenix New Times one). We should probably cite the "official" count ("approximately 600" would do; I don't think we want to be updating for every new one), but we should also mention that a relatively large number of additional "busts" (over 200, apparently; this is not an insignificant number) were made but have since been disavowed by PJ.
  • General language: "Claims" or "states" is better than "makes clear," yes. "Alleged" or a synonym should probably show up a lot; presumption of innocence applies unless and until a "bust" has been found guilty in a court of law. Also, while not directly related to the article, I'd be careful about calling people "pro-pedophile" — that's a potential libel case, right there.
  • Under Accomplishments: "the largest anti-pedophilia website online": This needs a source citation.
  • Jonathan Zittrain: Should probably be expanded upon, in accordance with Mr. Carr's citation above. "Entrapment issues don't tend to apply" and "no immediate cause of action jumps to mind" isn't the same as "the site is completely legal."
  • Harassment order: It seems the key factor here was lack of jurisdiction. Once again, a citation (perhaps to that PDF a previous poster mentioned) would be best.

So basically, what it boils down to is... sticking to citable sources and trying to keep opinion out of it. Shimeru 22:41, Jan 10, 2005 (UTC)

"If Peter Carr could read well, he would see that nobody said Howard endorsed the site, but only that what the site does is legal."

It's Jonathan Zittrain, of Harvard. Who's Howard? To reprint the full text of the email, I would first have to obtain permission from Dr. Zittrain, which I will obtain asap. Chatmag

Jonathan Zittrain: Should probably be expanded upon, in accordance with Mr. Carr's citation above. "Entrapment issues don't tend to apply" and "no immediate cause of action jumps to mind" isn't the same as "the site is completely legal."

Watch the CourtTV documentary where Zittrain comments more: Katie.com by Al Roker productions. It's aired multiple times and will continue to do so.

As for calling people "pro-pedophile" being libel, the ultimate defense against libel is truth. Since the site in question "corrupted-justice.com", was co-founded by an admitted member of NAMBLA, a man who has stated that he "uses child porn" and is a "child porn addict", the tag certainly fits.

My statements about the article needing to be protected stand, there is no way the anti-PJ'ers will let ACTUAL Wikipedia authors and impartial observers to edit the article. They will continue to grab proxies, they will continue to undermine NPOV. I was aware of this article before it was even posted (and there were many things I thought weren't right when I saw it after it was immediately posted, yet I edited nothing), yet didn't come in on the piece until it was brought to my attention that there was a concerted effort to screw with it underway. It is my sincere hope that actual Wiki- people and not the defenders of pedophiles write the article. I don't care what ACTUAL Wiki people write so long as it's not screwed with by organized pedophile-enablers.

Let's talk about improving the article

I'm going to be honest and say I haven't read large parts of this discussion. It appears to be a debate which has little to do with the content of the article. Now that this article is protected and listed in a few lists of "problem articles", it's going to get some attention from regulars here, and our intent will be to improve the article - not to fight around with people. For this reason it would be best to limit the pro/con debates in this talk page. If you have a suggestion on how to improve the article, please make it.

All involved need to read a few policies, please: Wikipedia:Neutral point of view says that we should present all points of view in a neutral manner - this means no deleting information simply because it presents the subject in a bad light. Try to stay away from loaded terms, including pedophile. If you want an external link taken down, please bring it up here. Another policy is Wikipedia:What Wikipedia is not. It isn't a soapbox, a vehicle for advocacy or self-promotion - whether you're for or against P-J, please don't use this site to further your POV.

I don't think pro/con lists work too well, it turns into an arms race where each side owns their respective section. I would try to integrate the pro/con points into a coherent section. But if people feel it will work here, that's fine. Also, try not to use equals signs to separate comments in discussions, it breaks the table of contents on this talk page. And I realize I'm not setting the best example, but try to keep your comments brief and to the point, it really helps discussion. This article isn't going to be protected forever, so feel free to discuss what needs to change. Rhobite 20:29, Jan 11, 2005 (UTC)

Some input, comments

Hi, I'm Phoebus Apollo, Perverted-Justice.com co-admin. I was pointed to this article by a medical lab student who commented earlier, and would appreciate throwing in my two cents worth to this conversation. I also use the same IP as Xavier as we are roommates (in case anyone wonders about that). Some observations I'd like to make:

1. Perverted-Justice.com Legality: While Jonathan Zittrain's comments on the CourtTV episode made it perfectly clear, I would like to reiterate that since no one has even speculatively presented a law that Perverted-Justice.com MAY be breaking, that it should be unfair to say anything other than that the site is "entirely legal". I am fine with NPOV wording such as "Site supporters claim the site is entirely legal, while detractors speculate --- short list of main speculations ---", however I would appreciate it if someone impartial would locate an exact quote from Zittrain from the CourtTV broadcast to suppliment any such comment, as he is an authority and has stated on tv that the site is legal. I think it's fair that the legality of our site - which is not been put into question, as no one has claimed we have broken any actual laws - not be made to appear speculative to a point of total uncertainty, as the legality of my site is not uncertain in the least.

2. Harassment Restraining Order: The point of view of the Corrupted-Justice.com advocates is that the Harassment Restraining Order against two of our contributors was only rejected because of jurisdictional reasons, as if otherwise we would've been slapped hard with legal action and we merely dodged the bullet. This is completely bogus and I have citations from the judge's decision contradicting this claim, suggesting the judge ruled it out for a variety of reasons, such as deeming a harassment restraining order as an inappropriate act to solve this dispute, and clearly stating that even if jurisdiction wasn't an issue the court still would've denied the petition.

I summarize all of the opinions of the court which they listed as "several important issues" behind why they denied the action, direct from a copy of the verdict letter sent to our contributors, the respondants in this case:

  • Reason #1: Jurisdiction (this is the reason no one disputes).
  • Reason #2: The Defendants were not Xavier Von Erck, the owner of Perverted-Justice.com, and even if the court decided to rule to have content removed or censored from the site, it would not be possible unless Xavier Von Erck was the defendant.
  • Reason #3: The court did not believe Minnesota harassment legislature was made to address legal issues regarding the internet, and felt that a harassment restraining order was not the format in which to decide the important issues involved. The facts before the court did not support a harassment restraining order style of action.
  • Reason #4: Direct citation (my italics): "Finally, even had we not been compelled by jurisidictional concerns to deny the petition, we still would have found that an Harassment Restraining Order was not appropriate in this situation, because the defendant's actions probably do not qualify as harassment for purposes of Minn. Stat. § 609.748, subd. 1. It contemplates physical acts directed at a person, such as telephone calls, name-calling, unwanted visits, stalking and the like. We have reviewed the testimony and evidence presented at the hearing, and it is clear that the defendants did not themselves commit the harassing acts -- the telephone calls -- directed at the petitioners. Rather, any harassment that petitioners may have suffered was the result of action taken by other people who saw the website or the news story and responded by harassing petitioners." The judge speculates that the act might have "led to" harassment, but that the harassment is not on the part of the contributors (and thus not on the part of Perverted-Justice.com). This means that the individual callers or individual people online who "harassed" them are each legally responsible for their own acts. If it was any other way, then all media outlets and internet websites would be subject to the whimsy of their most hysterical reader's actions.

Finally, the official court order read:

"ORDER: Based on evidenced presented at the hearing there are no reasonable grounds to believe that the respondents has engaged in harassment. Therefore, no two-year restraining order shall be issued, and the petition is dismissed."

Reason #4 explicitely stated that even if jurisdiction was NOT an issue this judge would have deemed the action inappropriate. Likewise, if the contributors are not liable for the harassment caused by other people's phone calls, then we can also reasonably conclude my website is likewise not liable for said harassment, just as we can likewise reasonably conclude the newspapers are not liable for said harassment. The people liable are the individuals involved, particularly the people making the calls (if the calls are "harassment", a single call cannot be by definition, 60 calls a day is not "harassment" if the 60 callers are all individuals which they likely all are, so please keep this in mind). I believe this argument is clear and therefore we should NOT consider this harassment restraining order to be denied on a "jurisdiction only" basis. Likewise, I'd like to add, nowhere does the judge suggest taking the action to a "federal" level, the direct implication from the court is that the appropriate action here is civil litigation in the defendant's homestates, not a "federal restraining order" which likewise (if you look it up) is grossly inappropriate for this situation. Simply put, internet disputes mainly don't get settled via restraining order.

3. Links: If wiki readers want to balance the "pro" and "con" links, I believe they should, but I believe an article edited by Morrow and his Corrupted-Justice.com crew will revert too many to "con", especially too many to their own very specific "con" pieces, making all objection to my website a part of his very narrow series of complaints. By letting that outshine the negative viewpoints of our other detractors, it is limiting what "con" really is. I don't mind revising "pros" and adding "cons", I just want Wiki readers, not CJ.com staff, making these decisions.

Lastly, if Corrupted-Justice.com is listed as a "con" source, then Corrupted-Justice.net immediately becomes a relevant "pro" source - the argument Corrupted-Justice.net isn't relevant is absurd, as it's sole purpose of existance is to address the criticisms that Corrupted-Justice.com has made towards Perverted-Justice.com. You won't find many direct criticisms of Corrupted-Justice.com addressed on Perverted-Justice.com, so it is unfair to link to that and say "good enough" while ignoring the very valid counterpoints Corrupted-Justice.net provides. It would not be neutral to allow Corrupted-Justice.com staff to inject their criticisms without the most prevalent website offering critical counterpoint to those criticisms not also being listed. I believe Corrupted-Justice.net is a necessary and valid resource to link to, only if Corrupted-Justice.com is linked to. If Corrupted-Justice.com does not force itself into this article, then I do not believe Corrupted-Justice.net is a relevant link, and only under those conditions would I find it appropriate to remove the link.

I also feel that a link to the FAQ and a link to the Guide are not redundant, however additional links beyond that may be, at Wiki reader's discretion of course.

4. Number of "busts": There are 592 officially on the website. "Approximately 600 (as of January 2005)" would be appropriate language. There were more in the past as I told my friend above, he did a good job describing it, since they won't be found on the site anymore they aren't really official nor exact figures.

5. Citation for "the largest anti-pedophile website online": This citation comes from our forum user base of 16,000. Even if a fraction of those users are actually active today, this easily puts us as the largest anti-pedophile resource online. I am making this claim and I would appreciate discussion regarding it. At the very least, a NPOV wording such as "the site claims to be the largest anti-pedophile website online" is appropriate, however I do believe that no comparable resource could be found with regards to user base, keeping in mind that even a small fraction of those 16,000 users puts us well above any other online organization that is dedicated to anti-pedophilia.

For any further questions regarding this Wiki article and PeeJ, I invite all Wiki readers to IM me at the following usernames:

AIM: PhoebusApolloX Yahoo: phoebus_apollo1 MSN: phoebusapollox@hotmail.com

Thanks for your time.


I'm not sure how I did that, but can someone please fix this. I'm not familiar yet with reverts. My apologies to Phoebus, it was unintentional.

I had attempted to post an update.

The issues being discussed here should be moved to a court of law, and not use Wikipedia as such. I had hoped for a reasoned discussion amongst gentlemen, apparently that will not happen. As I stated before, this article should be deleted. Chatmag


Please be careful with how you edit next time. - Phoebus

More input & comment

1) I agree completely with the comment made above that this article, as currently written, appears to be nothing more than an advertisement for the PJ site. Statements in the "Cons" section are supposed to represent the actual "cons" of the site, yet for virtually every "con" listed, statements such as "however, site supporters believe..." have been appended to counter what is being stated in the "con". The cons listed should show the negative aspects that critics cite, without the site owner's or supporter's caveats to those criticisms.

2) Corrupted-Justice.com is one of the primary critics of Perverted-Justice. Our only reason for existence is to publicize the negative aspects of PJ. We are direct critics of PJ, acknowledged to be so in a considerable number of newspaper articles and other media. As our mandate is directly related to PJ (we would not exist were it not for PJ's existence), there is no question that Corrupted-Justice.com should be included in both the "links", and the list of critics in the "Cons" section. As for corrupted-justice.NET - They have stated numerous times on their own site that they have no relation to PJ. This has been reiterated in Pheobus Apollo's statement above. They have made it abundantly clear that they are separate entities with no direct relationship to PJ beyond existing to criticize a site which DOES have a direct link with PJ. If the article in question were ABOUT Corrupted-Justice.com, it would be reasonable for .net to have representation. The article is not about Corrupted-Justice.com - It is about perverted-justice.com, therefore, any references to cj.net should be removed.

3) Unless PJ supporters can provide externally verifiable proof that any of their critics are "pedophiles" or "pro-pedophile", making such statements are simply libelous and childish attempts to discredit their opposition. Asserting that a blog posting or usenet message is proof of ANYTHING is preposterous unless it can be independently proven that any such posting was actually made by the person being accused and if so proven, the circumstances surrounding the posting. Contrary to PJ's methods, guilt of anything is not assumed on the basis of claims made by those with an agenda to discredit and should therefore not be allowed in either the article or this discussion. While some may personally believe that Xavier Von Erck and Phoebus Apollo are "closet-pedophiles", making such a statement with no more proof than messages posted publicly on the Internet would, in most circles, be considered libel and should not be tolerated here either in the article or this dicussion.

4) The "exact figures" for the number of "busts" made by the site should include the exact number of 181 busts which were removed from the site due to not having been phone verified, and the exact number of 62 removed because they were conducted by "Tattooed Indian Guy" who was removed from the site and had all evidence of his existance subsequently removed. If the article is to present facts, the fact is that PJ has conducted 243 busts in addition to the number they display on the site. Not including these additional "busts" simply because they may cast doubt on the site's integrity is not in of itself a reason to hide the fact that 243 more people than the number stated by PJ have been affected by PJ. Regardless of the number stated on the site, these 243 "busts" occurred, and should be included.

5) Stating that PJ is "anti-pedophile" is an inacurate misnomer, as the vast majority of the almost 900 "busts" were never convicted in a court of law, and in the eyes of the legal system, very few if any of them are true "pedophiles". That PJ has made such accusations against these people does not necessarily make it true. Unless verifiable proof is shown that PJ only targets actual pedophiles, any reference to this term should be dropped.

--Scott Morrow 18:07, 16 Jan 2005 (UTC)

External links and people slagging out it about their own websites

I have no clue about the whole thing and no interest in it either apart from thinking that this article has gone seriously out of hand. I also believe that no one should write about him/her/themselves. This includes IMHO both PJ and CJ proponents. Further I believe that three internal links to one site are clearly far too much. Refdoc 19:30, 27 Jan 2005 (UTC)

I have amalgamated the three links, kept separately but on one line, which is probably a good compromise. I understand that interested parties will lead a revert war re delete of the anti-anti group's mentioning by my preceding editor (CJ.net or CF.org or whatever) but I would appreciate if this amalgamation would survive any editwarring over that unrelated matter. Apart from this I have no vierws on whether that anti-anti group should be mentined or not, I simply believe that anyone involved in the actual sites should really not write here. Refdoc 13:04, 28 Jan 2005 (UTC)

Disputed

"Have been credited with assisting in obtaining seven convictions since June of 2004, and was able to locate an abducted girl in September of 2004." - source for this please. If one can't be provided in 3 weeks, I will remove the material. - Ta bu shi da yu 22:52, 31 Jan 2005 (UTC)