Talk:Peru national football team

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WikiProject Peru To-do:
Peru national football team was a good article nominee, but did not meet the good article criteria at the time. There are suggestions below for improving the article. Once these are addressed, the article can be renominated. Editors may also seek a reassessment of the decision if they believe there was a mistake.

Reviewed version: August 20, 2007

I didnt remember last time i saw Peru with a sky blue sash, its back to red now :) --Nasdaq 01:13, 3 September 2005 (UTC)

Contents

[edit] Further Improvements

The article has greatly improved since it was first rated due to the help it has been getting by various people. Now, we need to further plan out how to make the article even better. Make some suggestions here (Which is the purpose of the discussion page, I suppose) so that others understand what you're planning to do or what you would want for the article to have. I myself would like if somebody with a greater knowledge on the subject to expand on how the Peruvian team has done in the Copa America (As a preview, like the section previous to the "World Cup and Qualifiers"). Perhaps also somehow mention more about Peru in other tournaments like in the Kirin Cup, Gold Cup, and Olimpics. I will also keep contributing to the article. But, are there any other ideas you might have? MarshalN20 22:55, 25 July 2007 (UTC)

~The article is looking more and more impressive, a far cry from its previous status.Selecciones de la Vida 05:56, 22 August 2007 (UTC)

Well, I've expanded the article as far as I can imagine it can be expanded. Now perhaps it just needs some more citations. I'll try searching for those. Great job everyone, this article definately looks much better than last time; and I even dare say this article has every right to be nominated for something higher than a "B" rating. In comparisson to the majority of the other football articles (Even those of the higher-ranked teams. Hahaha.), this article is helpful and well-organized. Then again, we eventually should also start to think about moving the U-17 article to its own Wikipedia article; but right now I think it's fine to keep it in here since right now the U-17 doesn't have much history on their backs.MarshalN20 13:55, 23 August 2007 (UTC)
I would recommend getting information such as when the first international was played, biggest win and worse defeat regarding the U-17 national football team, so when the article gets created, there won't be a problem filling the info-box. Selecciones de la Vida 16:50, 24 August 2007 (UTC)

As suggested by the peer review, the stuff on the World Cup and Copa America (not the records, though) should be merged into History. When you first enter the article page, there are several titles which kind of distract the reader. I think it would be best that there should be subtitles under History used instead of various new titles. --MicroX 23:15, 16 November 2007 (UTC)

I've removed the Interesting Facts section because:

  1. Trivia sections are discouraged per WP:MOS
  2. The stuff in that section were already integrated into the article.

I also moved the citation for the chalaca move into the article. --MicroX 23:26, 16 November 2007 (UTC)

~I would like to first begin by thanking you, MicroX, for taking the time to want to discuss this article. Now that you have openly stated your ideas, I can see what you want to do.

Now, back on subject, yes, it was a good idea for you to delete the trivia-like section of the article. Yet, I disagree that the World Cup History and the Copa America history should be merged in with the "General History" of the Peruvian team. The reasons to this are that: World Cup History and Copa America history are specific sections of the article that specifically discuss those subjects; and it would be highly illogical to truncate these sections that have been hardly worked on. I read your ideas in the bottom part of this discussion section, I'll continue this discussion on that part.MarshalN20 (talk) 00:07, 17 November 2007 (UTC)

Then let's just make the Copa America and World Cup sections subtitles of History. They would fit underneath perfectly and it would make sense. We should rearrange the content in history a bit to make it look like this:

==Last and next games==
==History==
→La Blanquirroja in the FIFA World Cup
→Copa America
→Records
→La Blanquirroja in other tournaments
==Home stadium==
==Noted players==
==Recent matches==
==Current squad==
==Managers==
==Kit evolution==
==Football rivalries==
==Under 17 team==
==See also==
==References==
==External links==

--MicroX 19:40, 17 November 2007 (UTC)

~That's perfect. I'll make the "Alternate Stadiums" sub-section.MarshalN20 (talk) 23:49, 20 November 2007 (UTC)

I did some major editing to the article, including the re-arranging of various parts and deletion of the U-17 section (since there's a whole article for it already, there's no need for it in the Peru national team article). The format I based this re-arranging on was a Wikipedia structure for football articles, and the above suggestion by MicroX. Some things I did not do was mixing the individual histories of the tournaments Peru participated into the main "history" section of the article as I still think that the main history should be an overview while the individual sections for the tournaments should be more in-depth to the actual participation of Peru. It was also suggested, by Victor12, that the format of the article get somewhat closer to the Scotland national football team article, so I tried imitating some of the things in that article, but did not completely follow their structure such as (at least the way I see it) their first history section which looked as if somebody had simply got a bunch of information and stuck it in there for the heck of it (and put a bunch of sources along with it). Adding to it that I don't think it would be deserving for this article to be a complete imitation of the Scottish team article. On the overall, I really think this article should get a GA rating. I know more references are needed, there are some POV problems, and some grammar mistakes, but that only means the article is still not ready to be an FA class article, it does not mean that the rating cannot go up into a GA, for the least.--~~ —Preceding unsigned comment added by MarshalN20 (talk • contribs) 16:22, 27 April 2008 (UTC)

Fair enough. You might want to try your luck at WP:GAN then. As that page is backlogged it might take a while before this article is reviewed. In the meantime we can keep on improving it. --Victor12 (talk) 17:49, 27 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Failed good article nomination

This article's nomination on Good Article Candidates has been failed due to a lack of references. Facts which could potentially be questioned by a sceptical reader should be attributed to a reliable source. See Wikipedia:Verifiability, Wikipedia:Reliable sources and Wikipedia:Citing sources for more details. YouTube videos should not generally be used as references. Oldelpaso 17:40, 20 August 2007 (UTC)

It should however be noted that this is a very good article, maybe not very far from FA status once the citation problem has been fixed. Please note also the style guidelines at WP:CITE: all citations should be inline and correctly formated using cite book and cite web templates. Keep up the good work and good luck for your next nomination!--SidiLemine 17:46, 20 August 2007 (UTC)

For further improvement and suggestions you might want to submit the article for peer review at Wikipedia:WikiProject Peru/Peer review. You'll be sure to get some useful reviews. Greetings, --Victor12 17:53, 20 August 2007 (UTC)

Most of the contributions I've made to the article come from basically translating a lot of text from the Spanish article into here. Of course, I have also added a lot of visual candy for the reader to have an easier and entertaining read for a sports article and have tried to make the article more ordered (As an encyclopedia should be). Nearly all of the statements I have translated from the Spanish article held no citations that I could use, but I added only the information that I know for a fact that is true. Of course, I know about there needs to be a reliable verification to the statements. Perhaps someone could volunteer to go scout the information for reference (BTW, I agree YouTube really isn't something that should be used as a reference)?MarshalN20 18:38, 20 August 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Mini-peer review

I did a small peer review and these are the suggestions it gave me. The following suggestions were generated by a semi-automatic javascript program, and might not be applicable for the article in question.

  • Per Wikipedia:Context and Wikipedia:Manual of Style (dates), months and days of the week generally should not be linked. Years, decades, and centuries can be linked if they provide context for the article.[?]
  • Per WP:WIAFA, this article's table of contents (ToC) may be too long – consider shrinking it down by merging short sections or using a proper system of daughter pages as per Wikipedia:Summary style.[?]
  • This article may need to undergo summary style, where a series of appropriate subpages are used. For example, if the article is United States, then an appropriate subpage would be History of the United States, such that a summary of the subpage exists on the mother article, while the subpage goes into more detail.[?]
  • Please make the spelling of English words consistent with either American or British spelling, depending upon the subject of the article. Examples include: favorite (A) (British: favourite), defense (A) (British: defence), organise (B) (American: organize), recognize (A) (British: recognise), counter-attack (B) (American: counterattack), skillful (A) (British: skilful).
  • Watch for redundancies that make the article too wordy instead of being crisp and concise. (You may wish to try Tony1's redundancy exercises.)
    • Vague terms of size often are unnecessary and redundant - “some”, “a variety/number/majority of”, “several”, “a few”, “many”, “any”, and “all”. For example, “All pigs are pink, so we thought of a number of ways to turn them green.”
  • Please ensure that the article has gone through a thorough copyediting so that it exemplifies some of Wikipedia's best work. See also User:Tony1/How to satisfy Criterion 1a.[?]

You may wish to browse through User:AndyZ/Suggestions for further ideas. I think we need to work on deciding if the article should be American English or British English and reducing the size of the article because it is very long. Thanks, MicroX 23:51, 16 November 2007 (UTC)

~The idea of the recent and previous games for the article was very good. Yet, I would not like for the section showing all the games the team has recently played to be erased. It is not long, and it really is necessary to show the team's results. Perhaps once that section gets long, it can be made into a new article (specifically for the purpose of seeing the records of the recent matches of the Peruvian national team).

  • The table of contents is long, but it does not have unnecessary sections. All of the section titles there are relevant to the article.
  • The Subpage idea is fantastic. I had pondered about that for a while, but I wasn't really sure as to how to make it (the only article I've created was the Chile-Peru Football Rivalry, and it survived due to the help of another editor) into a good one. This is the idea I had:

-Make a page called "History of the Peruvian National Football Team," and there send the long information in the sections of the World Cup (Qualifiers and Participations), the Copa America (Participations), and summarize the "General History" and add the long section currently in this article into the new article.

  • I have already made little summaries of the Copa America and World Cup sections. Perhaps they could be improved, but I think they are a good base for the summary.
  • The "Players Recently Retired From the Team" section seems irrelevant to me (I know I'm contradicting what I previously said, but I just noticed this one). I did not bother to erase it previously because I really didn't care much for it. Yet, now that you mention that the table at the beginning may be too long, perhaps that section could be taken out?
  • The American/British spelling thing mainly comes from previous and current editors in this article. I really don't think it is much of a big deal, but if you think that will make the article better, then by all means you can do that.
  • I have to admit that I contributed to parts of the redundancy in the article. Sorry about that. Editing that would be a magnificent idea.
  • Aside from the redundancy, I have been trying to constantly fix spelling mistakes and other minor errors several editors (past and new) make. I think that some of the problems come from some of the editors at times not being very "efficient" in the English language, but their contributions turn out being good when they are fixed with propper grammar.

Well, that's all I've got to write for now. I can tell that your editing, MicroX, will greatly improve this article. Just please take into consideration some of the things I've pointed out. If you need any help with the article, don't doubt to contact me (I'll try my best to help).MarshalN20 (talk) 00:38, 17 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Ticket image copyright

I've got two tickets right now that are for a Peruvian FIFA World Cup Qualifier. Would it be a copyright violation if I scanned them and uploaded them onto Wikipedia for this article? --MicroX 19:52, 17 November 2007 (UTC)

-If you've bought the tickets, then I see no reason as to why you wouldn't be able to post them. Yet, the only problem I would see with this is in the case the ticket has some trademarks in it. If you can, after you scan the picture try to make those trademarks blurry as to there won't be a problem with the company. Other than that, since you bought the ticket, you have the right to do whatever you want with it.MarshalN20 (talk) 00:56, 18 November 2007 (UTC)

Ok, I'd have to blur out the Teleticket logo. However, the Teleticket logo does not show a ®, ©, or ™ logo on it. I've noticed that most Peruvian companies don't trademark or register their logos.

-That's a terrible trend with Peruvian companies, but nonetheless (for courtesy), it would be best to simply respect their "trademark" (even if they really haven't registered the logo). It's better to simply stay away from that kind of trouble. Also, something I was thinking about, if you're going to go to the game; perhaps you could try to take some pictures of the game so that you can later upload one photo for the article? I know it's hard to bring in cameras into the Peruvian stadium (Especially with the risk of it getting stolen), but the article would greatly benefit from a picture of the team actually playing.MarshalN20 (talk) 06:24, 18 November 2007 (UTC)

Yes, I've been planning that for a while now. I'm going to take a camera and take pictures of both the stadium and the team. However, I'd prefer to go to the Nacional because the article on the Nacional does not have a picture that shows the entire stadium. --MicroX 13:53, 18 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Home stadium:Estadio Monumental U?

The traditional stadium of Peru is the Estadio Nacional. But the Estadio Monumental "U" is used now by the team. I think it would be logical to include something on the Monumental in the Home Stadium section. --MicroX 02:27, 18 November 2007 (UTC)

-Technically speaking, the Monumental is not really the "Home Stadium." You're completely correct, though, in stating that the team has recently been using the Monumental (I've read several papers stating that the coach has said he preffers to use that stadium due to controversies with the synthetic field) as the stadium. I think a sub-section within the Home Stadium section called: "Alternative Stadiums" would come in handy. Sometimes the team has also used the Alejandro Villanueva stadium, I think if I remember well, and also the Cusco stadium. So on that "Alternative Stadiums" sub-section there can be a mention of all the alternative stadiums used by the team (the current one at the top, of course).MarshalN20 (talk) 06:28, 18 November 2007 (UTC)

You've added the alternate stadiums which is good but we should try to make the information in each section relevant to the National Team. Also, when has Peru played at the Garcilaso? --MicroX 02:33, 21 November 2007 (UTC)
~I'm not sure if Peru has ever played in the Garcilaso; but here's this little something:

"Silva said the decision on the location of the Oct 13 clash with Paraguay would be taken soon and that three stadium's are under consideration: Cusco's Garcilaso de la Vega Stadium, which is also 3,400 metres above sea level, and the Monumental Stadium.

Both stadiums are included in the FIFA list, alongside Lima's National Stadium and Alejandro Villanueva Stadium, even though the world football governing body is opposed to official games being played at more than 3,000 metres above sea level."

Even if Peru has not actually played in the stadium, they are part of the list of alternate stadiums the team planned to use. Though, unless somebody really knows, it should not be stated in the article that Peru has or has not played at that venue.MarshalN20 (talk) 18:07, 21 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Peru-Brazil Images

Here are some images that I took during the game. Unfortunately, I didn't take many because I was so caught up with the game. And to make matters worse, one of the pictures that was of the team warming up before the game was erased when I accidently stepped on my camera. The sun was very bright that day, which made one of the pictures come out badly.

Image:PeruBrazil final.JPG‎
Image:Monumental Sur Camiseta.JPG‎
Image:PeruBrazilanthems.JPG‎
Image:Monumental U Occidente.JPG

I plan on going to the next home game. The next home 2010 World Cup Qualifier is in June but there are three FIFA-fixed-date friendlies in February, March, and August. So there could possibly be a home game on one of those days. Finally, we should try to place these pics in appropriate places in the article. --MicroX 00:12, 20 November 2007 (UTC)

Nice work. I specially like the second and fourth ones. I see that you have already linked the latter and I was wondering where can we place the former. Any ideas? --Victor12 (talk) 01:19, 20 November 2007 (UTC)
I've got two more that picture the northern stand with a red banner that says Yo pongo el aliento and one that has the Peruvian National Police marching on the field. Would they be of any use in this or any other article?
The Monumental U Occidente could go under an Alternative Stadiums section as suggested by MarshalN20. --MicroX 03:12, 20 November 2007 (UTC)

~Second and Fourth are the best. I think I know where I can add them in the article...MarshalN20 (talk) 23:52, 20 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] confusing citation

In the article, while I was fixing citations, I found this one. What is it suppose to be?

<ref>Allan Pedersen, "Kroghs oprejsning", ''[[Ekstra Bladet]]'', 20 January 1997</ref>

I need to know so that I can use it in the appropriate template. --MicroX 03:43, 8 December 2007 (UTC)

It's apparently something related to the goalkeeper of that team during the U.S. cup. I'm really not sure what it is, other than that.MarshalN20 (talk) 23:02, 11 December 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Estadio Nacional pictures

Anyone know if the Estadio Nacional is open during the week to the public. I thought of going there to take a good picture of the stadium. There aren't many good or whole free images on Commons or the web. A good picture of the Nacional would be great. I don't think the Monumental will be national team's ground for very long and as soon as someone removes the artificial turf, everyone's going to want to go back. So it'd be best to have a good picture ready. --MicroX 21:58, 17 December 2007 (UTC)

[edit] new year, new fixtures

The new year has started so I will remove all of last years games, except for the four World Cup Qualifiers and start putting the games for this year. --MicroX 22:53, 10 January 2008 (UTC)

Sounds good, except that the record so far is not so good for Peru. lol. MarshalN20 (talk) 02:19, 6 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Contradiction

About the Estadio Nacional, the article currently states that inaugurated on October 27, 1952, it is Peru's main stadium and has hosted all four Copa América's football competitions held in Peru between 1927 and 1957. This is a clear contradiction, how can a stadium inaugurated in 1952 host tournaments held before that year? --Victor12 (talk) 18:03, 27 April 2008 (UTC)

As confusing as this may sound, the stadium was apparently previously inaugurated with another name, then it was re-modeled (or something of that ilk) and renamed, and then it was "officially" inaugurated (or for technical purposes, "re-inaugurated") in 1952. I used the information that the Wikipedia link carried me to, but I think it would be best to look for a more concrete source (I might not have the time, so if somebody else could do it that'd be great, but if not, I'll find one eventually).-- MarshalN20 (talk) 04:52, 28 April 2008 (UTC)