Talk:Persian Immortals

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

WikiProject Iran Persian Immortals is part of WikiProject Iran, which aims to improve Wikipedia's coverage of Iran-related topics. If you would like to participate, you can edit this article, or visit the project page, where you can join the project and see a list of objectives.
??? This article has not yet been assigned a rating on the Project's quality scale.
??? This article has not yet been assigned a rating on the Project's importance scale.
After rating the article, please provide a short summary on the article's ratings summary page to explain your ratings and/or identify the strengths and weaknesses.
MILHIST This article is within the scope of the Military history WikiProject. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the project and see lists of open tasks and regional and topical task forces. To use this banner, please see the full instructions.
Start This article has been rated as Start-Class on the quality scale.
Ancient Near East Portal
This article falls within the scope of the ancient Near East WikiProject. Please participate by editing this article, and help us improve articles to good article standards, or visit the project page.

Contents

[edit] History Vs Herodotus

I removed this line "The regiment was followed by a caravan of covered carriages,camels mules that transported their women and servants. The Immortals received special food." because it is not based on any historical evidence, in fact slavery wasn't allowed during emperial era's, as well as Immortals being mostly a horse back style unit (not camel). Furthermore there were female "Immortals". It's important to not include herodotus words as facts when there's clear historical evidance against his view of an evil persian empire seeking to enslave all of humanity. ( see Cyrus the Great's laws). RumiPantea (talk) —Preceding comment was added at 23:28, 6 February 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Continuation of the 300 Arguement

First of all..... "Frank Miller's graphic novel 300 and the motion picture present heavily fictionalized version of the Immortals in the Battle of Thermopylae. In the movie, they appear as black covered warriors who wear silver masks and wield twin swords in battle, based more upon Japanese Samurai and Ninja. They serve as King Xerxes' personal warriors but in the story they mainly serve as nameless and faceless henchmen, which Spartans easily defeat. The movie portrayed the Spartans as almost invincible, and the fact that the Immortals could kill a few was the only thing that proved that they were the greatest in the entire Army of Xerxes.".... This statement seems to be fairly opinionated, also... in the end it is the Immortals that do them in... after the spartans lost their advantage of that rock formation...

On another note, although the Frank Miller's Immortals were heavily fictionized, they were based on the original Immortals and as such are deserving of atleast a note..

  • Maybe a mention but no more. This is no D&D prestige glass page - Skysmith 09:24, 28 March 2007 (UTC)

Hey can we leave 300 off this page please? Frank Miller's immortals are fictional, and don't belong here. Thanks 141.153.155.149 22:09, 11 March 2007 (UTC)

The game Rise of nations has the 'Immortals'as Persian unique infantry, starting with the 'Immortals', wich can be upgraded to 'Anusiya', wich can be upgraded to 'Athanatoi'. Fairly original, don't you think?

  • Amusing, but not surprising, I'm afraid. They are essentially the same thing - Skysmith 08:29, 13 July 2005 (UTC)
  • Not surprising at all, seeing how Rise of Nations re-uses similar names of unique units to extend the unit roster, such as adding "Elite", "Royal" or anything short of "Super" to indicate improved versions of unique units. --Scottie theNerd 13:02, 1 March 2006 (UTC)

Rome: Total War has not Persian immortals.

  • Nor does Age of Empires, I believe 169.233.121.238 06:31, 29 July 2007 (UTC)
    • AoE does not have Immortals, so I removed the reference. Nibios (talk) 08:06, 28 December 2007 (UTC)

[edit] 300

It's fictional, but there are cultural reference sections in many of the pages. The book and movie should at least be mentioned at the end.


Why do they look like orcs in the movie?--Sonjaaa 06:31, 24 March 2007 (UTC)

  • Because they are in the same position, narrative-wise, that is, evil henchmen - Skysmith 09:23, 28 March 2007 (UTC)

I've only heard this from a History Channel Documentary and I'm not familiar with their accuracy (probably very good?) but according to the special, Immortals wore black thin cloth-material, called tiaras (like the crown)over their faces. Picture a ski mask but thinner and without the eye-holes. Frank Miller's interpretation of them might be influenced by this, hence the masks.

  • Contemporary depictions show them having helmets which left the faces bare. - Skysmith 09:23, 28 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] In Fiction

this article is not about the characters in the comic/movie. It's supposed to be a bout historical figures. I shortened up the section. It still mentions their appearance in the film but that's all that is needed.99DBSIMLR 18:52, 30 March 2007 (UTC)

  • Good move. It was becoming a little weird to have a serious historical aricle dominated by a comic strip creation which didn't bear any resemblence to the real thing.210.246.16.179 18:30, 31 March 2007 (UTC)
  • In other fiction-> Final Fantasy XI: Immortals do appear as imperial troops, however their clothing style suggest post-islamic era, as well as the empire's symbole being the two headed serpant (ferdosi wrote shahname during islamic occupation) further supports this. This ofcourse is trivial as there were/is no Immortals during islamic rule. Not sure if it's worth mentioning in the main page. RumiPantea (talk) 01:42, 24 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Religion

Instead of this:

Later in time, a strict adherence to the religion of the prophet Zarathustra and his teachings, or "truth" as the Persians called it, was required.

Why not just say something to the effect of: "..., a strict adherence to Zoroastrianism, the state supported religion of the Achaemenids."

Technically it was not a state religion, it must be noted. Persians did not force conversions upon conquered peoples, for example. The note on "truth" is ambiguous and doesn't really clarify anything. Is that referencing 'Asha'? I've no idea what the Persians are calling it, besides the "Good Religion" or Mazdayasnian Zarathushrianism, etc. Okay, so I do, but that's not important in this article, unless you want to start entering in Avestan and Old Persian transliterations. And "truth" sounds a little generic. Could just as easily be talking about the Tao, or the 'Gospel' truth. In other words, note that they were required to be Zoroastrians, but leave the specifics of the religion to Zoroastrian pages perhaps? Khirad 20:05, 9 April 2007 (UTC)

The comment about "truth" looks like an attempt to reconcile Herodotus' description of the Immortals' training regime (IIRC they are taught from childhood to be good with spear, good with bow, and to always tell the truth) with actual Persian beliefs and practices. 212.139.84.55 18:44, 5 May 2007 (UTC)
  • In avestan Amesha Spenta kind of translates to immortals in the zoroastrian faith this might be the link between them or where the idea originated. RumiPantea (talk) 01:49, 24 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] 300

I know you want 300 left off this page, but in the movie they WERE heavily fictionalized. I loved the idea that there were black ninjas that looked like ghouls under their Armour. I mean if there was an award for best remake ever, this movie i feel should get it

203.26.13.4 02:03, 22 May 2007 (UTC)

[edit] "Companions"

"Herodotus' source may have confused the name Anûšiya (companions) with Anauša (Immortals)."
"The title of "Immortals" was first revived under the Sassanids. The most famous of the Savaran units were the Zhayedan (Immortals) and numbered 10,000 men, like the Achaemenid predecessors, with the difference that they were cavalry."

This article doesn't make it clear whether the Persian units were actually called Immortals or whether this was an error. If it was an error, were the Sassanids just repeating it? I doubt they were working off Herodotus. 82.95.254.249 16:34, 27 May 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Concrete proof that the Immortals actually existed?

The only sources their are come from to third party sources, and one of them is vague. Isn't it possible that Herodotus was confusing these guys with another unit? According to the article the Persian Empire itself had no record of such a unit. --Ted87 07:46, 13 July 2007 (UTC)


Hello to everyone here!I'm new so I apologize if I create any problem at least for now!.Anyway as far as I'm concerned the Persians had an elite unit named AMRTAKA.It's said this unit is the original'immortals'.i don't know what it means in Persian but I don't think it actually gives that meaning knowing that taka means shield.Probably Herodotus had given them a very unique name due to their fame —Preceding unsigned comment added by Euagoras (talk • contribs) 18:54, 1 September 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Indiana Jones

Are the guys that defend the Holy Grail in Indiana Jones and the Last Crusade based on the immortals? Doctorfluffy 17:54, 1 August 2007 (UTC)

Not at all. The Brotherhood of the Cruciform Sword is a fictional order of Christian militants created for the movie, who have as their sole purpose the protection of the Holy Grail. Take a look at Military Order or Secret Society, those come a lot closer. Themill —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.208.120.38 (talk) 03:45, 23 December 2007 (UTC)

[edit] WH40K and Starcraft

Is there any evidence of a connection between the Necron and Protoss units and the Persian ones? The name is not good enough, that's just meant to be either descriptive or sound badass.

If I don't get an answer by the next time I look at this page, I'm deleting those references. Andy Christ 21:53, 3 August 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Picture?

What a useless picture to include in such an article--the 300 one, that is. You may well be better off not using one at all. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.137.155.16 (talk) 03:12, 1 September 2007 (UTC)

I agree. It seems rather strange that a photo of an actual Persian relief at Persepolis should be deleted and that a grotesque caricature like the film poster should appear in its place. Presumably the same copyright rules apply to both.210.246.8.136 05:33, 1 September 2007 (UTC)
Well I have attempted to solve the picture problem. I created this illustrated version of the Persian Immortals that is hopefully somewhat more accurate than that fictionalized 300 thing-a-majiger.¤~Persian Poet Gal (talk) 09:19, 4 September 2007 (UTC)
Good work! Buistr 09:35, 4 September 2007 (UTC)
An anonymous editor 83.233.154 has twice removed the picture of a Persian Immortal (Achaemenid era not the film 300 poster) with the comment "cute picture but no authenticity whatsoever". Anon 83 has not however supplied any evidence in support of this statement. I have checked with the artist Persian Poet Gal who advises that her references were the archers freize from the Susa palace, now in the Louvre, and a modern reconstruction. Her comment was "granted that the picture isn't 100% perfect but it gives a relatively good idea of how they looked". Taking into account the uncertainties surrounding this subject I would agree. Would other editors agree that the picture should again be restored? Buistr 21:41, 31 October 2007 (UTC)
The picture at the bottom of the page, from 300, is not the actual immortals. They're just the persian foot soldiers. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.235.168.207 (talk) 02:19, 1 March 2008 (UTC)