Talk:Persian Gulf

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

There is one question why Google Earth does not want to accept that Persian Gulf has only one name which is "Persian Gulf". In case, Google Earth does not want to remove Arabian Gulf false name The Iranian User will boycott the Google Earth which is not good for Google Company.


A request has been made of the Mediation Cabal for mediation on this article.

Please do not remove this notice until the issue is resolved.
This is not a forum for general discussion of Persian Gulf.
Any such messages will be deleted. Please limit discussion to improvement of the article.

This is the talk page for discussing improvements to the Persian Gulf article.
Article policies
Archives: 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6
This is a controversial topic that may be under dispute. Please read this page and discuss substantial changes here before making them.
Make sure to supply full citations when adding information and consider tagging or removing uncited/unciteable information.
Discussions on this page may escalate into heated debate. Please try to keep a cool head when commenting here. See also: Wikipedia:Etiquette.
Peer review Persian Gulf has had a peer review by Wikipedia editors which is now archived. It may contain ideas you can use to improve this article.
Peer review This Geography article has been selected for Version 0.5 and subsequent release versions of Wikipedia. It has been rated Start-Class on the assessment scale (comments).

. --alidoostzadeh (talk) 16:53, 11 March 2008 (UTC)

Well,the first problem with your suggestion is that you might wish to introduce that brand-spanking new proposal to the mediation, as it isn't one of the proposals listed there, and we are trying to remain within the confines of the mediation.
The second issue is that your proposal is, well, awkward (as well as being incorrect). Proposal #4 is succinct, and leaves the specifics of the nomenclature dispute to the text of the article text (as per WP:LEAD). You are welcome to point out where it fails to provide an introduction to the article (as you have been welcome to point out numerous other somewhat unsupportable claims you have made recently). The Lead is not for specifics - you've been here long enough to kno that, and if you are unclear on this subject, you really should ask someone - I do not mean that as a dig - I think you are honestly interpreting LEAD and NPOV somewhat incorrectly, and I really think that your other contributions will have exposed you to admins who will be happy to help you understand the policies and guidelines I've noted a bit more clearly.
I suggest this because you do not see that pointing out in the Lead the supposed political origins of the alternative name is dismissive of the weight of the people who use it. You are adopting a point of view not conducive with neutrality, whereas proposal #4 is perfectly neutral and reflects the text currently in place in this article as well as the Persian Gulf naming dispute article. I appreciate you have citations that all talk about Nasser's usage of the term; I am not contesting that Nasser hijacked the term for pan-Arabism, and I never, ever have. I am simply saying that the alternate name citably existed prior to Nasser's usage, and because of that we must avoid pinning the origin of the term to Nasser or his political motives. Let's avoid recentism, shall we? - Arcayne (cast a spell) 17:43, 11 March 2008 (UTC)
Again the alternative name for "Persian Gulf" does go back to the era of Nasser (not Nasser personally although he was one of the first politicans to use it). It goes back to the general pan-Arabist nationalism which Nasser was a poster boy of. It's political nature is a fact and there is no reference/scholar that disagree with Bosworth. So we can be specific as the above is, and in the reference also say "Arabian Gulf" has been used historically was used for the Red Sea. My proposal is succint also although I think for now, other people will give proposals. Over all, the disagreement is about "political nature", where I have brought enough sources from scholars. You will need also scholars stating: "No the designation Khalij-e-Arabi (Arabian Gulf) in the Arab world predates the 20th century. These Arabic texts use it. It does not go back to pan-Arabist nationalism". Since no such scholar exists, I believe the lead should include something about the political nature of the term when it is mentioned. As per Wikipedia Lead (or your intrepretation of it), this is an article with its problem, so small adjustments (per your intrepretation since I do not see any contradiction and I believe it is succint) are okay as long as everyone is satisfied (which is of primary importance). Thanks.--alidoostzadeh (talk) 18:02, 11 March 2008 (UTC)
You keep stating with absolute assuredness that no citations exist that note the usage of Arabian Gulf prior to Nasser (or, as you conceded, the politics of pan-Arab nationalism), which brings us back to the question I asked you before: if I supply you with them, will you withdraw your issues with proposal #4? You keep avoiding answering, and I find it odd that you would do so. Either you want citations that prove my point, so you can withdraw your objections, or you are going to argue to include a political bent no matter what. Answer the question, and we'll continue. - Arcayne (cast a spell) 20:02, 11 March 2008 (UTC)
I didn't say that. I said Arabian Gulf was used for the Red Sea since the time of Herodotus. Yes, simply bring scholars (not your own original research) who have said: "No Bosworth, Sick, etc. are wrong. The name Arabian Gulf(Khalij-e-Arabi) as a Designation for the Persian Gulf (not the red sea), was used prior to the 20th century in Arabic countries" and preferably name the Arabic manuscripts that do so. --alidoostzadeh (talk) 21:09, 11 March 2008 (UTC)
This section is for discussing the next step to be taken to resolve the dispute over the lead. While there are other related disputes (i.e. Nasser and the origins of the Arabian Gulf) these are not a priority. Per WP:LEAD, the lead should mirror the content of the article. I do believe that we should choose a proposal that is similar to the state of the body of the article now. If we can reach a consensus later on about a change in the body, we should only then discuss changing the lead. I know that everyone wants to resolve this conflict, so we should be careful not to bog done the discussion with issues that are only in the penumbra of the main conflict.--Agha Nader (talk) 15:47, 14 March 2008 (UTC)

Thank you alidoostzadeh for the new scholarly references, which further prove the accuracy and integrity of my proposal. Lets see if user:Arcayne is able to provide references that directly or adequately refute the sourced statements provided by alidoostzadeh or he'll just keep insisting on engaging in original research. Sorry I haven't been able to take part in the discussions, I have been busy in real life, but I should find some free time within the next few days to resume the discussions on the mediation page.--Sia34 (talk) 20:59, 11 March 2008 (UTC)

Yeahhh, I think I am going to avoid the caustic responses by Sia et al, and simply await the mediation's resumption to include them in the official record there. That way, tendentious statements and bad faith editing pretty much can escalate matters to either an AN/I or ArbCom complaint, as opposed to here, where folk simply offer 'I don't like it'-style criticism. Let's see who else has the courage to participate in the mediation again. - Arcayne (cast a spell) 21:13, 14 March 2008 (UTC)
I think the issue is simple. It has to do with the word initially due to political reason whether in parenthesis or part of the sentence. The other wordings are the same and it is good enough. And if someone is disputing that the name Khalij-e-Arabi was not created for political reasons in the Arab World and then used in the Arab world in the 20th century, they should bring sources from reputable scholars that contradicts it. I think the 'I don't like it' has been actually coming from rejecting three reputable sources rather than anything else. I can bring more sources obviously that say the same thing as Bosworth, but it is important that you bring a source from a scholar (not original research) that establishes a valid basis for the term "Khalij-e-Arabi"(Arabian Gulf) designating the Persian Gulf (not the red sea or a statistical outliers map which contradicts the text of the same Atlas) before the rise of pan-Arab Nationalism in the 20th century. Specifically, after a scholar has mentioned that the name "Arabian Gulf"(Khalij-e- Arabi) has precedence in the Arab world before the 20th century, then a source from the 19th century in the Arab World designating the Persian Gulf as Khalij-e-Arabi would be desired. --alidoostzadeh (talk) 01:04, 15 March 2008 (UTC)
(edit conflict) :::With respect, I think the issue, while simple, is contentious. I bring the citations, then the fighting begins anew, while people argue how the Persian Gulf is the one and true name for the article. Forgive me for wanting to sidestep all that drama. As I said, I'll wait until the mediation resumes, so as to gain a lot more protection when someone eventually sparks off there. The ciations exist. The reasonable person would realize that the article doesn't mention the usage of the term "initially due to political reasons", so it doesn't belong in the Lead. Its dismissive of the usage by millions of people, and while I won't go so far as to call it partisan editing, the recalcitrance to avoid simply noting the term and leaving it for the article to explain seems suspect. - Arcayne (cast a spell) 01:12, 15 March 2008 (UTC)
I think it is best to reeally close this issue. Here is my take. If you bring sources from actual scholars mentioning that "Khalij-e-Arabi" was used before the 20th century in the Arab World (and trust me it wasn't because I have looked at enough Persian and Arabic articles on the issue and many Arabs will take you, their Grandfathers called it Persian Gulf) and the name is not political and the claim of Bosworth, Sick and etc. are wrong, then I'll take your proposal when you find such academic sources. If not, then I will take Sia's. The issue is simply about that minor point which I think we can resolve soon. --alidoostzadeh (talk) 02:15, 15 March 2008 (UTC)
Arcayne has simply not provided any citations for anyone to offer 'I don't like it'-style criticism of it. If anything, he's been dismissing valid citations from reputable sources without providing any refutation from any source, which is a violation of WP:NOR and WP:RS. If "the citations exist" , then post them, it's as simple as that. --Sia34 (talk) 02:38, 15 March 2008 (UTC)
Allow me to use smaller words, as my previous comments must have been too difficult to follow: I will wait for the mediation to resume, and post the citations again. I don't have the patience to deal with certain individuals who won't even promise to back off their pet versions once proven incorrect, so I am not going to risk losing my cool and sending those individuals off weeping into a corner, crying for their mommies and risk getting myself blocked for doing so. We aren't in a hurry, and I will wait for the mediation to resume, so I have the record of the mediation to refer to when these same individuals refuse to accept the citations or the resulting outcome.
Ali, I want the issue to be closed too, but it's pretty clear that it won't happen here in the discussion page, where people can act rudely with a level of impunity. Were the point minor, a compromise to actually follow wikipedia rules would have already happened. It hasn't, which is why I am going to trust the cleaner effort of the mediation to resolve matters. I have noted your growing politeness, and I want ou to know that it is appreciated. - Arcayne (cast a spell) 03:31, 15 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] General Clean-up

Once this discussion about the article header is resolved, would it be acceptable to cut down the paragraphs and paragraphs of text asserting that the traditional name for the Persian Gulf is, in fact, "The Persian Gulf"? It just seems strange that over half of the article (Etymology and also Naming Dispute) is little more than a list of people who called this body of water by a particular name. I would think that one paragraph, incorporating the 14 currently-supplied citations into it (thus maintaining the "widely accepted" angle), would be enough for "Etymology", with the "Naming Dispute" section being more of a summary of the Persian_Gulf_naming_dispute article. Feel free to correct me if this has already been discussed. Eco-Mono (talk) 12:05, 7 March 2008 (UTC)

While I think there is a bit of bloat concerning that, the etymology of the name is separate from the nomenclature dispute. While there is a rich etymology regarding the Red Sea or Lake Erie, there isn't a significant amount of dissent over its name. If there were, it would be considered notable enough to mention. - Arcayne (cast a spell) 19:33, 7 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] The arabic article is wrong

I'm sorry that I'm discussing and article for a different language, but I don't know arabic and therefore I cannot discuss this on arabic. I However noticed the following on the arabic article. The title of the article is الخليج العربي. If I'm not wrong, it says the arabic gulf. Is it correct of the arabic article to have that title? I know that inside the article it says that it can also be called the persian gulf, but I still think it's kinda misinforming? Wefez 22:08, 19 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Edits unrelated to edit war topics

{{editprotected}} Since the Persian Gulf article is protected, could an admin please make the following edits (hopefully) unrelated to the edit war topics.

Please alter the last sentence of the "Geography" section to read as follows:

Various small islands lie within the Persian Gulf, some of which are subject to territorial disputes by the states of the region.

Also, please change the entire "British residency" section to read as follows:

[edit] History

 Please help improve this section by expanding it.
Further information might be found on the talk page or at requests for expansion.

[edit] Colonial era

See also: British Residency of the Persian Gulf

From 1763 until 1971, the British Empire maintained varying degrees of political control over some Persian Gulf states, including the United Arab Emirates (originally called the "Trucial Coast States") and at various times Bahrain, Kuwait, Oman, and Qatar through the British Residency of the Persian Gulf.

The United Kingdom still keeps a high profile in the region even today. In 2006, for example, over 1 million Britons visited Dubai alone.[1]

Thanks. — AjaxSmack 08:02, 26 March 2008 (UTC)

Y Done these seem uncontroversial. Happy‑melon 15:42, 27 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] historical use of the name Arabian Gulf

this is an old map used in the Arabic Wikipedia dating back to 1667 using the name (Sein Arabique) i.e. Arabian Gulf.

this must be included in the article as merely stating that the name was invented by pan-arabic leaders is hitorically false, I also suggest this pic to be integrated in the article and not just use the image of the edited map alone. Habibko (talk) 15:40, 28 April 2008 (UTC)

The map contradicts the texts of the writings: [[1]] and is original research (has no source). It is important to point out that the Atlas needs to go with the map and make anything specific. You can not find Arabian Gulf in any Arabic manuscript. The one or two maps that have Sein Arabique in old Europeans maps have also Persian Gulf and in the actual text of the Atlas, they use Persian Gulf. Some of these maps put Assyrian in Central Iran and etc. So without the text of the Atlas, they are unreliable and that is the important point. You can not find any textual evidence. There have been 500+ maps of the region since the 12th century, but not a single textual evidence supports "Arabian Gulf" for Persian Gulf, and most of them refer to the Red Sea as Arabian Gulf. could reasonably be taken by Anna as a clue increasing her posterior pr
"The term Persian Gulf was in universal use during this period... Not until the early 1960s does a major new development occur with the adoption by the Arab states bordering on the Gulf of the expression al-Khalij al-Arabi as weapon in the psychological war with Iran for political influence in the Gulf; but the story of these events belongs to a subsequent chapter on modern political and diplomatic history of the Gulf. Note the author is a very famous British historian of the Muslim World with dozens of books and hundreds of article. (Bosworth, C. Edmund. "The Nomenclature of the Persian Gulf."Pages xvii-xxxvi in Alvin J. Cottrell (ed.), The Persian Gulf States: A General Survey. Baltimore: Johns Hopkins University Press, 1980.)(pg xxxiii). This needs to be included in the introduction once the article is unlocked.
Also I note another use put a lot of unsourced nonsese. For example claiming Pliny used Arabian Gulf for Persian. That is false. I think Pliny was clear enough when he describes Persian Gulf and Arabian Gulf and he says Arabia Felix (basically Saudia Arabia) lies between Persian Gulf and Arabian Gulf. It is unfortunate the same lie has been circulating for a while. [[2]]. Note it says: The one which lies to east is called PERSIAN GULF, and is two thousand five hundred miles in circumference, according to Erasthenes. Opposite to it lies Arabia, the length of which is fifteen hundred miles. On the other side again, Arabia is bounded by Arabian Gulf'. I believe that is very clear. Now again from the link you brought: By descending the Indus, and going up the Persian Gulf. [3]. Excerpt from Natural History, Book VI – Chapter: The Persian and the Arabian Gulfs (Refer to Book VI. 109 - 111 in Loeb edition..)[4]. Again another except: We learn from Ephorus, as well as Eudoxus and Timosthenes, tht there are great numbers of islands scattered all over this sea; Clitarchus says that king Alexander was informed of an island so rich that the inhabitants gave a talent of gold for a horse, and of another* upon which there was found a sacred mountain, shaded with a grove, the trees of which emitted odours of wondrous sweetness; this last was situate over against the Persian Gulf. Note Pliny did not have a sattelite map and the world might have looked different to him. But he is following the correct Greek tradition (Strabo too) of calling Persian Gulf by Persian Gulf and Arabian Gulf as red sea. He is saying Arabia is bounded by Arabian Gulf on one side and Persian Gulf on the other.--alidoostzadeh (talk) 02:06, 29 April 2008 (UTC)
I agree with dear Ali doostzadeh. The legitimate name of the body of water is the Persian Gulf. It would be misleading to insert maps that give the false impression that Arabian Gulf is the historic name for the body of water. It is certain though, as plenty of sources have been provided, that many Arabs continue to use the term Arabian Gulf. Given this fact, I am prompted to ask Ali doostzadeh: should a modern map that uses the so-called 'pan-Arabist motivated term Arabian Gulf,' in addition to the present which only says 'Gulf,' be included to illustrate the point that Arabs use the term (even though they do it with out a historical basis)?--Agha Nader (talk) 03:36, 29 April 2008 (UTC)
Thanks friend. Maps can be a source of rv's and battle in this page. I have for example 300+ maps (of course who has time to scan them? But I might hire some summer job looking person oneday to do it) that use Persian Gulf from 12th to 20th century (you can find dozens or so on the internet) and thus it is obvious undue weight. I think one map illustrating the geographic region is good with the common English recognized name. We can mention Arabs call it Arabian Gulf based on political reasons. Even the red sea for example was never called Arabian Gulf in Arabic. And my challenge was still for someone to show a single example of "Khalije-a-Arabi" in any Arabic document prior to the 20th century. The issue is that some of these folks might not know that the red sea was called the Arabian Gulf and also the Arabian Sea was sometimes placed in different connecting regions of the Indian ocean, but the Atlas texts use Persian Gulf. One wonders with the Sea of Oman, Arabian Sea, Arabian Gulf (Red Sea), how come these guys are challenging the historical name of Persian Gulf. --alidoostzadeh (talk) 03:59, 29 April 2008 (UTC)
That's something I have always wondered about too. With three major bodies of water named after Arab countries, it's mind-boggling how much certain circles in those countries, care about renaming this one body of water. Regarding the issue of map, I agree with others' assessment that since this is the English Wikipedia, the map should naturally reflect the title of the article, which is the common name in English. --Sia34 (talk) 06:28, 29 April 2008 (UTC)
(←dent)No one is suggesting that the article should be changed to something else, unless there is a thread that I've missed here. In fact, the conversation isn't about changing the article name, or the legitimacy of the name (which is not within our purview anyway). The discussion os about noting that a substantial number of people use - for whatever reason - an alternative title. The discussion tangentially morphed into a legitimacy argument that is best addressed elsewhere. The body of water is called something else by a notable number of people. We are obliged - nationality concerns aside - to note it. - Arcayne (cast a spell) 16:33, 20 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Mazanderani Interwiki

{{editprotected|mzn:فارس خليج}}

There is an article in mazaderani wikipedia needs to be linked to this article, Thank You! --Parthava (talk) 12:33, 20 May 2008 (UTC)

Y Done Happy‑melon 14:59, 20 May 2008 (UTC)

ghghghghgh —Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.216.33.140 (talk) 21:15, 26 May 2008 (UTC)