Talk:Persecution of Muslims

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I---Franklin Carroll---think that if there is going to be a page like this then there ought to be a page that details the persecutions muslims have carried out on others. Of course, this other page would be much longer.

Yeah, But that's not what this article's about.

Sign your name please Franklin Carrol. By the way, i suggest you delete the last sentense of your comment. It seems slightly racist. Thank you! (Ssd175 00:15, 21 January 2007 (UTC))


A previous attempt to delete this article failed. The discussion can be found at Wikipedia:Votes for deletion/Persecution of Muslims.


Wshun, I am sorry to have been so hasty to post this on VfD. I can see it is the basis for a substantial article. If it is still listed there, I will remove it. Good luck! Viajero 11:41, 29 Oct 2003 (UTC)

I think it would be better to simply add this information to Muslim under a "Persecution of Muslims" section. There's nothing unique about persecution of Muslims vs persecution of any other group. Topical, perhaps, but not unique.
Tualha 23:20, Nov 14, 2003 (UTC)

If you agree to move Persecution of Christians to Christianity, then I support your idea. Wshhun


I edited the discussion of how the riots started to present a more neutral point of view. What is known that 58 Hindu pilgrims died due to a firebombing of a train by an alleged Muslim mob. Whether the mob did it or not, subsequent riots killed at least 1000 people, mostly Muslims. I wanted to introduce a more neutral point of view. user: 67.106.157.231

59 Hindu Piligrims including 14 children. Corrected the numbers.


'Hindu persecution of Muslims'

That section is marked NPOV. Largely Hindu India is represented by a Muslim president. Where is the persecution in that? Riots in a localized place does not characterize an avowed policy of persecution.

What has that got to do with anything? Leaving out the issue that the President 'position is largely ceremonial', and that the most powerful person in the Indian government is the Prime Minister, Manmohan Singh, who is Sikh, what has systematic persecution got to do with who sits at the head of government? Don't assume that just because the head of a nation has something to say it means that people are in the mood to listen to him. --T-Boy 15:52, 28 August 2005 (UTC)

Contents

[edit] Gujarat was not a genocide

Gujarat riots were riots they were not genocide. 2000 Muslims dies but India has 150 million of them, it is hardly a genocide. Moreover these were riots between two communitites not a state planned (or executed) "genocide".

Wow! Thats like saying Stalin killed a 100 000 Russians at once but thats okay because there were 120 million of them. A genocide is a mass murder, and many will consider this to be exactly that because there were people employed by the state (i.e. police and army officers) involved in the killings. --Anonymous editor 17:32, Jun 19, 2005 (UTC)
Genocide means the deliberate destruction of a social identity, not mass murder per se. Killing the last six members of a people is genocide, but killing a few hundred of a population of many millions is mass murder. E.g. the Holocaust can be termed as an attempted genocide. --Germen 12:14, 22 July 2005 (UTC)
Then the question should be whether the Gujarat riots were an attempt to destroy the social identity of Muslims within that state or not. Which, I'm guessing, is up to a matter of debate.--T-Boy 15:55, 28 August 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Skeleton outline

Omegatron said "this article has a very "skeleton outline" feel. the empty headings should be deleted if they do not get content in a few days." I disagree with the latter, but definitely agree that this needs more content... - Mustafaa 23:44, 2 Jun 2005 (UTC)

[edit] NPOV

This entire article is screaming with POV. "Muslim persecution in Spain" without even mentioning the Muslim invasion of Spain or the long campaign of warfare the Muslims used to conquer and convert the pennisula. An armed response to an invasion is not persecution! It cannot be logically equalled to say, the Holocaust were a peaceful ethnic minority were made scapegoats and killed or where Christians were fed to the Lions. "Muslim persecution during the Crusades" - The Crusades were an armed response to the Muslim persecution of Christian pilgrims. While the Crusaders slaughtering the Muslims in Jerusalem was wrong (in my POV), an action like that is more like total warfare, not persecution. That's like saying the massive bombing of Dresden, Germany in WWII, was persecution of Germans.Barneygumble 15:39, 21 Jun 2005 (UTC)

And you believe that a program of forced conversions and expulsions of an already conquered minority is an "armed response to an invasion" that took place 800 years earlier? I suppose if the modern Welsh started kidnapping English children and raising them to speak Welsh, or expelling Englishmen and confiscating all their property, you would call that their "armed response" to the English invasion of Wales 800 years ago. - Mustafaa 21:07, 21 Jun 2005 (UTC)
The Scottish were fighting with the English from long before William Wallace up until the Young Pretender was finally defeated. England invaded several times. Even today the Scots still dislike the English. Today people have a democratic political process. The Scottish Independence Party seeks Scottish independence. If they ever got enough votes, they could vote themselves out of Great Britian. Regardless... you do have a point in way. However, although events surrounding and leading up to the Spanish Inquisition were obviously persecution, a sentence or two of context leading up to the time period would create for a better NPOV. For example, in 1946, the Czechs expelled all Germans from Czechoslovakia. That was "persecution of Germans" although discussing it, without mentioning the Munich Conference, WWII, and the Sudenland would be improper. Barneygumble 22:07, 21 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Events of less than a decade before, as in your Czech example, can certainly be argued to constitute necessary context; if you can think of any missing information about the events leading up to Granada's conquest, say, that could be relevant. Events of 800 years earlier, however, have nothing to do with it. Even the Granadan kingdom itself wasn't founded until many centuries later, when Christians already had the upper hand in the peninsula. - Mustafaa 22:38, 21 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Just because it is a longer time doesn't change the necessity to include the historical context. How is the Czechs expelling Germans (because of German invasion) any different the Spanish expelling the Moors (because of their invasion)? Just because it was several hundred years didn't change Spanish resentment. It's a strong POV not to include any background. Any comments on my Crusade arguement? Barneygumble 15:04, 22 Jun 2005 (UTC)
Just because it was several hundred years didn't change Spanish resentment. You claim, then, that "Spanish resentment" at the events of 800 years ago led to the events described here. This is a testable hypothesis; if it were true, their persecution would have been confined to Muslims alone. In reality, the Spanish did the same thing to the Jews at the same time, so you argument holds no water. Frankly, you might as sensibly throw in an explanation of the Roman conquest, or for that matter a paragraph on the Castilians' suppression of the Mozarabic rite of the southern Christians. Every event has an infinite amount of "background", but most of it is simply not relevant.
As for the Crusades - what argument? The Crusaders had conquered Jerusalem; it was their territory, not the enemy's. And again, your suggestion's flaw is shown by the fact that they killed the Jewish civilians there as well as the Muslim ones, proving that military considerations were the last thing in their mind as they butchered the inhabitants. - Mustafaa 23:13, 23 Jun 2005 (UTC)
Well, the Crusaders actually warmed up on Jewish civilians in their own countries first, and by the 4th Crusade they were actually sacking Christian cities (e.g. Constantinople) instead. Jayjg (talk) 23:19, 23 Jun 2005 (UTC)
Yeah. Of course, the Christian cities they sacked were Eastern Orthodox, so I guess in their mind that fit into the general scheme of killing people of different religions - though the 4th Crusade's work was more about Venetian profits than anything else. - Mustafaa 00:02, 24 Jun 2005 (UTC)


[edit] China

Would you mind not including the Qing dynasty. There was no persecution of Muslims during the Qing. There is no evidence of Muslims being persecuted, nor does this article even try to provide some. It remains an unsibstantiated allegation. Which is not very nice. If someone comes up with some evidence then it can be put back, but at the moment it just sits there. Is there any reason to keep it at all? Lao Wai 21:27, 18 July 2005 (UTC)
Actually, it's easy enough to find sources that say there was (I'm not sure offhand how reliably.) However, until the China section is written, I don't see any particular point to having an empty subsection. - Mustafaa 23:14, 18 July 2005 (UTC)
Well that would depend on how you define persecution. If by that you mean the Qing government suppressed uprisings by Islamic extremists, then, well, perhaps. But the Qing did not start those rebellions. They did not persecute the Hui. There were no laws restricting Islamic practice or teaching. The Hui remained privileged in law during the Qing right up to the end. Admittedly some Muslims seem to feel oppressed simply because they lived in a country ruled by pagans, but that is not quite the same as oppression as most people would see it. Lao Wai 10:51, 19 July 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Hyperbolic statements, hence POV tag

Muslims in Israel are discriminated against to some extent, but calling this persecution is hyperbolic and non-NPOV. The same can be said about Muslims in Europe and the United States. They are sometimes discriminated by non-Muslims (against government policy), but not persecuted. The exception is of course Bosnia-Hercegovina during the nineties.

Discrimination is included in Persecution of Christians and in Persecution of Jews. Why should this article be the exception? - Mustafaa 23:11, 18 July 2005 (UTC)
Mustafaa, I do not object to include discrimination in Persecution of Muslims, but I object to describe mere discrimination as persecution, as (as far as I know) there are no cases of Israeli citizenship holding Muslims being tortured or murdered. There are some cases of discrimination, though. The recommended way thus would be referring to the subsection as "discrimination of Muslims in Israel". The repression of the Palestines in the occupied territories does not seem to be religiously motivated (because secular, Christian as well as Muslim Palestinians receive the same treatment). --Germen 08:08, 19 July 2005 (UTC)
See Kafr Qasim massacre. It is perfectly possible (indeed, typical) for religious discrimination to be directed even-handedly at members of all religions other than the oppressor's own: the litmus test would be if Palestinian Jews and Samaritans were treated like other Palestinians (reductio ad absurdum!.) However, the Israel-Palestine issue is a difficult case, because ethnic, religious, and nationalistic motivations seem almost inextricably merged - and, when the section is written, it will have to take this confusion into account. - Mustafaa 23:07, 20 July 2005 (UTC)
Agreed, this incident is a clear case of persecution. I am not sure whether this is religious persecution or not as there were no religious reasons, except Zionist-nationalist motivations, cited. Also it seemed to have been an incident with a single perpetrator. Are there more cases of persecution of Israeli Arabs (e.g. harassment, violence, murder etc.?) --Germen 11:30, 22 July 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Totally disputed tag

POV: many instances of war or civil war are represented as persecution, e.g. the civil war in Lebanon. The Crusades were not persecution themselves, only the atrocities of Crusadfers qualify like persecution. Also, references are missing. I have marked the first five. This article needs a major fact and NPOV upgrade. --Germen (Talk | Contribs ) 17:58, 5 August 2005 (UTC)

First of all, I removed the tag on the religious conflict and Islam page specifically in relation to this. Don't engage in double-standards, you can't have a tag on one and no tags on the other. The Lebanese Civil War was definitely an example of religious persecution as people were killed just because they were Shi'ite/Sunni/Greek Orthodox/Maronite and for NO other reason than that.Heraclius 18:08, 5 August 2005 (UTC)
I removed that tag because the problems were solved or localized in subparagraphs. Neither happened here. --Germen (Talk | Contribs ) 18:19, 5 August 2005 (UTC)
Can you least explain why the persecution by Muslims should be included in the first sentence? That has nothing to do with this article, and it's already present in the see also section.Heraclius 18:28, 5 August 2005 (UTC)
Violence begets violence. A major reason why Muslims were persecuted is the previous persecution by them, and vise versa, e.g. in Lebanon, Bosnia, Spain. For this reason, addition of that subsentence will balance the article. --Germen (Talk | Contribs ) 18:33, 5 August 2005 (UTC)
Look at all the other persecution articles. Do any of them have a similar sentence to the one you're adding?Heraclius 18:36, 5 August 2005 (UTC)
Yes, I explicitly added this sentence to the Persecution by Muslims] article. --Germen (Talk | Contribs ) 12:01, 6 August 2005 (UTC)
Well I am just a passer-by but surely that is a non-sequitur. It may be that Muslims are a special case. It may be that it is true in this case but not in others. Or it may not. The only valid question is whether it is true or not. And I suspect it is not. Polytheistic religions tend not to go in for persecution. Monotheistic ones do. Even though there has been a long and gradual world-wide trend for the latter to eliminate the former, the former still do not persecute the latter as a general rule. So it is unlikely that the Muslims attract any real level of persecution just because they persecute. So it does not belong because it is not true and can't be sourced anyway. Lao Wai 19:17, 5 August 2005 (UTC)
Lao, recent history proves otherwise. All the 20th century incidents of Muslim persecution followed persecution by Muslims, e.g. in Bosnia, India, Israel and the Occupied Territories, discrimination of Muslim after the 11 September attacks. Counterexamples in which Muslims were persecuted which did not persecute others are welcome. As a second argument: not all religions are agressive, e.g. Buddhists will not persecute others as well as many Christians and pagan religions. If Muslims persecute them, they will not persecute Muslims in return. So your non-sequitur is a farce. In addition: I just give arguments here for including a reference to persecution by Muslims. Including information needs not top be sourced, only the information itself need to be sourced. Please refer to the applicable Wikipedia policy. --Germen (Talk | Contribs ) 11:52, 6 August 2005 (UTC)
The riots in India were a response to a terrorist attack on a train carrying women and children. The death of 800 Muslims in onw town where 250 hindus were also killed does not count as persecution.Bakaman Bakatalk 00:07, 19 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Accuracy dispute

Sources for many parts of this article are missing. Several problem statements have been marked. Can anyone source those?

[edit] Should we add a section: "Israeli persecution of Muslims"

Should we add a section: "Israeli persecution of Muslims"? I think we should somewhere mention Israeli occupation of Palestinian territories, and its policies (of land confiscations, home demolitions, extra-judicial assasinations, jailing for long periods of time, the WALL, denying access to farms and wells etc.). If it is ok, I can prepare a setion. Bless sins 20:10, 5 February 2006 (UTC)

I strongly support the idea of it. Faz90 20:48, 20 February 2006 (UTC)
Are they persecuted for their Muslim beliefs? Does Israel "persecute" Muslim Palestinians but not Christian Palestinians? Are there reliable sources for any of this? Can you ensure that the section will not consist simply of original research? If not, then the section would not belong here, and, in fact, would contravene Wikipedia policy. Jayjg (talk) 17:31, 21 February 2006 (UTC)

True you must show reported facts about specific denial of life BECAUSE of islamic belief. Also you must show that if water is denied in the palestinian terriotories then it must also be denied to muslims in isreali lands, which it isnt. There is no persecution to propagate the fact is to spread anti-semitism. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 167.94.2.9 (talk) 01:52, 21 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] POV: Secular Western persecution of Muslims

Not only is the major part of this section totally not connected to the persecution of Muslims (but rather explaning the 9/11 attacks), the part that is, is biased and unreferenced. 1652186 14:12, 14 May 2006 (UTC)

The section is in need of a major overhaul. I'll try to add and remove bits and make it more relevant. Amibidhrohi 15:58, 29 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] muslims killed by muslims??

Should this page include muslims killed by muslims? It would have been better if they discussed muslims killed by others rather than muslims killed by fellow muslims.nids 07:15, 18 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] I removed this from the introduction

Earlier muslim persecution of Buddhists and Hindus during the islamic wars of conquest in the Indian subcontinent, where many Buddhists/Hindus were forcibly converted, enslaved or killed, have given rise to hostility against muslims in India. Similar similar cases have been seen in the Balkans and during the middle ages in Spain, where earlier islamic persecution of christians have in recent times given rise to discontent with muslims.

This is quite disgusting ! It says in fact that killing or persecuting Muslims is totally comprehensible because of what their great-great-grandfathers did. Imagine a black man in the US excusing his criminal behaviour against whites because of slavery in the past !!! 85.90.69.35 10:50, 2 August 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Suggested move

I suggest this article be moved to something like "prejudice again Muslims". Many of th sources don't exactly deal with "persecution". This is a better alternative than deleting it.Bless sins 02:36, 9 August 2007 (UTC)

I wish there was a neutral word that summed up "discrimination", "hatred" and "prejudice" towards Muslims. Not Islamophobia, since it is recent.Bless sins 02:38, 9 August 2007 (UTC)
Perhaps, "anti-Muslim sentiment".Bless sins 02:43, 9 August 2007 (UTC)
  • Strong Support - I think we should really investigate the idea of doing so. Padishah5000 18:45, 30 August 2007 (UTC)
  • Strong oppose for obvious reasons. This move would just be an attempt to divert the criticisms against Islamophobia (an article which already exists), and pretend they are irrelevant. Anything useful in this article really should be moved to Islamophobia, and this article should be deleted, and/or redirected same as Historical persecution by Muslims.--SefringleTalk 01:04, 13 August 2007 (UTC)
  • Oppose. the topic is valid. If something is from other topic, move the text into proper article. Mukadderat 19:44, 31 August 2007 (UTC)


[edit] American Persecution?

I don't know if I'm missing another article, or if it is hidden in here, but I see no mention of the persecution of muslims in the USA (especially following 9/11). I remember reports of the assault of muslims and mistakened muslims (sikhs) following 9/11. Again, if this has already been covered, then don't mind this topic, but if not, we should get started! Canutethegreat 05:10, 16 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Crimea ancestral homeland of muslims?!

I noticed this and i do remember that Crimea was more "ancestrals" to greeks(in the south with Chersonesos) and slavs(in the north) than to the muslims . In it`s entire existence(of less then 300 years witch makes that "ancestral" look silly) the Crimean Khanate we cannot know wheter the slavs(ukrainians or otherwise) or the tatars were the ones how made the bulk of the population=> deleting this portion AdrianCo (talk) 01:42, 23 November 2007 (UTC)AdrianCo

The Volga and the Ural are even more phantasmagoric,Khazan lasted for less then 150 years people! In general we could speak of some level of persecution(or in most cases defence) agains tatars,but agains muslims,not likely!AdrianCo (talk) 01:48, 23 November 2007 (UTC)AdrianCo

[edit] Persecution of Muslims in Republic of Turkey

The present section Persecution of Muslims in Republic of Turkey is a disgrace to the encyclopedia; it is written from an Islamist point-of-view and consists of little more than distortions, which (for obvious reasons) are not supported by citations from reliable published sources. Unless someone manages to make something reasonable out of this in a reasonable period of time (but it will be hard to find any source that describes the former ban on headscarfs in universities as "persecution" – we don't call the same in France maybe "Islamophobia" but not "persecution" either), it would seem best if the whole section is removed.  --Lambiam 19:00, 26 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] What about

Israel's secular jewish pesecution of muslims —Preceding unsigned comment added by 63.216.125.168 (talk) 23:05, 23 March 2008 (UTC)

You need sources to say that. These sources need to specifically say "persecution". No House demolition in the Israeli-Palestinian conflict, West Bank separation barrier, nor apartheid count as "persecution", unless this is stated by a reliable source.Bless sins (talk) 13:57, 27 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] "Persecution"

I wanted to remind everyone of this. Unless an action, or view, or law (etc.) is specifically labeled as "persecution" (by a reliable source), it should not be in this article. This article is about persecution of Muslims, not unfair acts against them, or anything that is not persecution.

To be "persecution" it must be called "persecution" by a reliable source (preferably multiple ones).

This is an accordance with consensus on Wikipedia_talk:No_original_research/Archive_34#Persecution. Thanks.Bless sins (talk) 14:06, 27 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] ThePersecution.org

Is [1] a reliable source? I saw no evidence of reliability on its home page. Many of its pages don't even have names of authors on them. I don't think its reliable, but I'd like to hear other opinions.Bless sins (talk) 04:06, 18 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Quote: The next holocaust would be against Muslims

Well, I don't know... but you see... actually... would that... I mean... obviously, but... in other tearms... would this really be that bad??? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 89.52.143.163 (talk) 13:02, 13 June 2008 (UTC)