Talk:Persecution of Buddhists

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Nothing on the Emperor Wuzong of Tang? Seriously?--T. Anthony 10:32, 17 January 2007 (UTC)

Contents

[edit] Dubious source

Can someone please explain the following source: "The Maha-Bodhi By Maha Bodhi Society, Calcutta"?

Is it a book, an article or what? Who is the author? If it is a book an Amazon link would be nice.Bless sins 02:33, 6 September 2007 (UTC)

Can someone also give the quotation of what the source says? (this may not be necessary if you can give me a google books link or sufficient coverage of the book on some book review site).Bless sins 01:12, 9 September 2007 (UTC)
It's been a month since I requested more information. I'm removing it until someone can answer my above questions.Bless sins 04:33, 8 October 2007 (UTC)
It is the journal of the maha-bodhi society. The founder of the Archeological Society of India , Alexander Cunningham helped start this journal I believe.Bakaman 02:22, 12 October 2007 (UTC)
Um, ok. Can you give some evidence of reliability? Who are the contributors? Is it associated with an institution? Does it have an official website?Bless sins 23:31, 14 October 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Afghanistan

It was the one of only remaining Buddhist ancient figures in Afghan region which was able to survive from the Mughal invasion and later destroyed from the high explosives. Please do not try to destroy it for the second time. --♪♫ ĽąĦĩŘǔ ♫♪ walkie-talkie 01:38, 11 September 2007 (UTC)

Huh? How can those destroyed figures get destroyed again? --Raphael1 17:40, 11 September 2007 (UTC)
Keep this in your mind fellas, destroying the statues of people who do statue worshiping, can be taken as a persecution without any arguments (Similar to the burning of Bible or Quran). --♪♫ ĽąĦĩŘǔ ♫♪ walkie-talkie 18:13, 11 September 2007 (UTC)
Cite how it has been viewed as a persecution of Buddhists specifically. As far as I can see, the outcry at the time was not from Buddhists in particular, and nor did it focus on it as a specific act of persecution. Cite, or it gets removed. Hornplease 18:32, 11 September 2007 (UTC)

Are you trying to say that destruction of a symbol of religion is not persecution? Wikipedia is not a journal article which needs citation for each and every event, particularly when it is so well known!.Outlookeditor 18:42, 11 September 2007 (UTC)

We need a citation that it is relevant. This article is about the persecution of Buddhists, not of Buddhist icons.Hornplease 21:18, 11 September 2007 (UTC)
Destruction of things which relate to a person's religion is persecution of the person who follows the religion. Also we can use other images if this one is causing a problem. --Matt57 (talk•contribs) 22:38, 11 September 2007 (UTC)
No. Whom would I persecute, if I'd burn my Bible and Qu'ran? --Raphael1 22:45, 11 September 2007 (UTC)

I've found a text discussing Buddhists reactions: [1]. They mostly repeat Buddhas teaching, that "all things are impermanent (anicca)". They speak about a "destruction of Buddhist heritage", but nobody claims "persecution of Buddhists" (which would be odd, since there were no Buddhists in Afghanistan even before Chengis Khan started to vandalize the Buddhas in the 14th century). --Raphael1 22:45, 11 September 2007 (UTC)

Yes, well, "Destruction of things which relate to a person's religion is persecution of the person who follows the religion" - only if the religion states it is. Find a reliable source indicating that the destruction of these monuments amounted to persecution of people elsewhere, then it can be included happily. All I ask. Hornplease 22:49, 11 September 2007 (UTC)
Did you guys read the lead of the article?
Persecution may refer to unwarranted arrest, imprisonment, beating, torture, or execution. It also may refer to the confiscation or destruction of property, or the incitement of hatred toward Buddhists.
By the way, Persecution of Muslims contains references to destruction of mosques ("The period the conquest of Kazan in 1552 to the ascension of Catherine the Great in 1762, was one of a systematic repression of Muslims by policies of exclusion and discrimination as well as the destruction of Muslim culture by destruction of outward manifestations of Islam such as mosques. "). The fact that Babri mosque was destroyed is also present. The whole article is full of incidents of mosques being targetted. Targetting of places of worship/reverence for a certain religious group is persecution. --Matt57 (talk•contribs) 02:31, 12 September 2007 (UTC)
The Babri Mosque was one of the largest mosques in Uttar Pradesh, a state in India with some 31 million Muslims. OTOH Buddhism declined in Afghanistan already in the 8th century. We should add the persecution of that time (in China as well) instead. --Raphael1 12:10, 12 September 2007 (UTC)
The de-Islamification under Catherine is hardly comparable; the destruction of Islamic cultural heritage in that period was part of a sustained campaign to subordinate the Muslim communities of the south of the Empire, and thus actual persecution - ie of people and their property - was bound in with the destruction of 'their' heritage. My only claim here is that there were, to the best of my knowledge, no Buddhists who regarded the Bamiyan statues as 'their' property; at least, that is uncited. I would like to see some connection between the destruction of those statues and some actual Buddhists who felt persecuted, please. (And more persecuted than all of us felt at the destruction of part of our common heritage.) Hornplease 13:03, 12 September 2007 (UTC)

The presence of Buddhists who user their statues for religious purposes is questionable. We clearly need more sources.Bless sins 05:35, 12 September 2007 (UTC)

Can anyone justify further how the destruction of the statues of Buddha in Afghanistan is "persecution of Buddhists"? No Buddhist man, woman or child was harmed, nor was their property destroyed (the statues weren't their personal property).Bless sins 23:36, 14 October 2007 (UTC)

Again we draw your attention to the definition of persecution; "Persecution may refer to unwarranted arrest, imprisonment, beating, torture, or execution. It also may refer to the confiscation or destruction of property, or the incitement of hatred toward Buddhists." It's exactly the same in principle when Muslims bleat on and on about Korans being flushed down the toilet. Let us use your logic BS. If I go to a store and buy a Koran it's my personal property is it not?. Am I not allowed to take a whizz on it and then try to flush it down the toilet? Why can't I smother it in gasoline and film it while I set it on fire? No women or children would be harmed. Prester John -(Talk to the Hand) 01:10, 15 October 2007 (UTC)

That does make sense.Bakaman 02:37, 18 October 2007 (UTC)
Firstly Prester John, refer to me by my full name "Bless sins". Secondly, if a sick person buys a Qur'an and flushes it down the toilet, then they would not be, in theory, persecuting Muslims. But they'd be guilty of harboring anti-Islamic sentiment.Bless sins 23:37, 20 October 2007 (UTC)
Wow, you really can't see it above can you? Ok. Here it is for the third time. I'll help you out, the definition (again) will be in itallics, the relevant part will be highlighted in bold. Here it is again; "Persecution may refer to unwarranted arrest, imprisonment, beating, torture, or execution. It also may refer to the confiscation or destruction of property, or the incitement of hatred toward Buddhists."

Your claim that the fully referenced section is WP:OR is absurd and will now be removed. Prester John -(Talk to the Hand) 03:02, 25 October 2007 (UTC)

Yes, and the Buddhas destroyed by the Taliban were not the property of Buddhists, unless you can find a source that says so.Bless sins 12:12, 25 October 2007 (UTC)


[edit] Definition

Can we get a definition of "persecution of Buddhists"? I would also like a reliable source that vies this definition. Thanks.Bless sins 23:43, 20 October 2007 (UTC)

Here is a problem with the current definition: "It also may refer to the confiscation or destruction of property".

What if a Buddhist man is carrying some illegal item (say, a weapon) and the police "confiscates" it. Is that an example of persecution? What if a Buddhist brings into a country some item (say, heroine) and the authorities declare illegal and destroy it, which is his property. Is that an example of "destruction of property" and thus persecution?Bless sins 04:26, 28 October 2007 (UTC)

It wouldn't be persecution unless the individual (acting legally) was targeted because they were Buddhist. We're not referring to the confiscation or destruction of illegal drugs here. I'm sure you understand that though. It seems to me you're trying to selectively define persecution in a way that suits your belief that the destruction of the Buddhas of Bamyan was anything but persecution of Buddhists by the Taliban. --SRHamilton 05:53, 28 October 2007 (UTC)
Forget drugs. What if a Buddhist is found carrying something illegal? It could be drugs, or it could be something else. Should confiscating items that are illegal and destroying them be called "persecution"? Regarding the Bamyan issue, please see the section above.Bless sins 16:24, 28 October 2007 (UTC)
I'll also add that the same definition of persecution is in use at the article Persecution of Muslims. I also note that you support such a definition as you have referred to "land confiscations" and "home demolitions" as persecutions in connection with "Israeli occupation of Palestinian territories" here. So can we give the definition challenging and the OR tagging a rest please? --SRHamilton 06:01, 28 October 2007 (UTC)
Yes, and you do note that I never acted upon what I said. I don't care what you write on the talk page, as long as it doesn't appear on the articlespace. Also, you can't cite wiki articles. Please find a source that defines this concept.Bless sins 16:24, 28 October 2007 (UTC)
to harass or punish in a manner designed to injure, grieve, or afflict; specifically : to cause to suffer because of belief. Blowing up religious antiquities is meant to injure (Though not in a physical sense).Bakaman 20:09, 28 October 2007 (UTC)
Well in that case, I'm sure many Muslims were "injured" by Jyllands Posten cartoons. Is that an example of persecution as well? Sarcasm aside, please review WP:SYNTH which prohibits the use of two sources to promote a third view not stated by either of the sources.Bless sins 10:50, 29 October 2007 (UTC)
Your reading of WP:SYNTH is superficial and politically mischievous. A source noting the xxx government killing Buddhists would not be treated as persecution then. Boring us with false analogies really doesnt cut it.Bakaman 00:53, 30 October 2007 (UTC)
Please answer the key issues: did the Taliban destroy Buddhist property illegally, and what is the source for persecution of Buddhists.Bless sins 11:35, 31 October 2007 (UTC)
The questions deserve no answer, since they are obviously traps. There really need not be a source in a dictionary defining the term "persecution of buddhists" when we have two perfectly good terms "persecution" and "buddhists". As noted above, you do not use the same standard for Islam. Since news reports have documented a "persecution of buddhists" the concept meets WP:V which supersedes WP:SYNTH.Bakaman 22:59, 1 November 2007 (UTC)

Please not of the consensus achieved here: Wikipedia_talk:No_original_research#Persecution. Unless the word persecution is used we shouldn't be calling it persecution.Bless sins 03:53, 5 November 2007 (UTC)

Sources termed it persecution, it is reported on this page.Bakaman 04:01, 5 November 2007 (UTC)
Which source? I don't see any.Bless sins 03:00, 14 November 2007 (UTC)
I have re-instated the or tag since you have failed to provide a source that specifically says the Taliban persecuted Buddhists by demolishing the statues.Bless sins (talk) 09:51, 25 November 2007 (UTC)
A source has been provided. Again it should be noted that debating the semantics of an issue, especially one in which you have been pointed out to doublespeak in, is unproductive and disruptive.Bakaman 01:00, 27 November 2007 (UTC)
No a source for persecution of Buddhists has not been provided. Ironically, the only source that talks about persecution (this one), refers to persecution of Muslims in a Buddhist country (Cambodia).Bless sins (talk) 05:04, 23 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Pakistan?

How comes we have a section Pakistan? How many Buddhists can be persecuted in Pakistan? Are there any? --Raphael1 23:25, 17 December 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Deletions

As explained here the following was deleted in the article by Hornplease (talk · contribs) but no reason was put on the talkpage. Why was it deleted, and how could it be improved..

http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Persecution_of_Buddhists&diff=prev&oldid=155937610 Muslim conquerors also described Indian Pagans as But-parast, and idol-breakers as but-shikan. The word "but" is derived from the Persian word for Buddha, but was used by subsequent Muslims for "Indian paganism" in general.[1] Therefore in Muslim chronicles it is not always evident if Buddhists, Hindus or other Indian religions are described by term. In the 7th century Muhammad bin Qasim conquered Sindh and though he incorporated Buddhists into the into his administration as governors and is seen as having been welcomed against an unpopular Hindu king, is also noted to have demolished and sacked temples and monasteries and established Muslim rule.[2][3][4] Around 1000 CE, Turkic, Persian, and Afghan Muslims began major incursions into India through the traditional invasion routes of the northwest. Mahmud of Ghazni (979-1030) established a base in Punjab and raided nearby areas. Mahmud of Ghazni is said to have been an iconoclast.[5] Hindu and Buddhist statues, shrines and temples were looted and destroyed, and many Buddhists had to take refuge in Tibet.[6] He demolished numerous monasteries alongside temples during his raid across north-western India. In 1193, Qutb-ud-Din, a Turkish commander, seized control of Delhi, leaving defenseless the northeastern territories that were the heart of Buddhist India. The Mahabodhi Temple was almost completely destroyed by the invading muslim forces. [7] One of Qutb-ud-Din's generals, Ikhtiar Uddin Muhammad Bin Bakhtiyar Khilji, invaded Magadha and destroyed the great Buddhist shrines at Nalanda. [8] The Buddhism of Magadha suffered a tremendous decline under Khilji. [9] Muhammad of Ghor attacked the North-Western regions of the Indian subcontinent many times. Gujarat later fell to Muhammad of Ghor's armies in 1197. Muhammad of Ghor's armies destroyed many Buddhist structures, including the great Buddhist university of Nalanda. [10] In 1200 Muhammad Khilji, one of Qutb-ud-Din's generals destroyed monasteries fortified by the Sena armies, such as the one at Vikramshila. Many monuments of ancient Indian civilization were destroyed by the invading armies, including Buddhist sanctuaries near Benares. Buddhist monks who escaped the massacre fled to Nepal, Tibet and South India. [11] In 1215, Genghis Khan conquered Gandhara. In 1227, after his death, his conquest was divided. Chagatai then established the Chagatai Khanate, where his son Arghun made Buddhism the state religion. At the same time, he came down harshly on Islam and demolished mosques to build many stupas. He was succeeded by his brother, and then his son Ghazan who converted to Islam and in 1295 changed the state religion. After his reign, and the splitting of the Chagatai Khanate, little mention of Buddhism or the stupas built by the Mongols can be found in Afghanistan and Central Asia.[12] Timur was a 14th-century warlord of Turco-Mongol descent [13][14][15][16], conqueror of much of Western and central Asia, and founder of the Timurid Empire. Timur destroyed Buddhist establishments and raided areas in which Buddhism had flourished. [17][18] Mughal rule also contributed to the decline of Buddhism. They are reported to have destroyed many Hindu temples and Buddhist shrines alike or converted many sacred Hindu places into Muslim shrines and mosques.[19] Mughal rulers like Aurangzeb destroyed Buddhist temples and monasteries and replaced them with Islamic mosques. [20]

Care must be taken that nothing is whitewashed in the article. Librorum Prohibitorum (talk) 03:39, 22 December 2007 (UTC)

[edit] "Persecution"

I wanted to remind everyone of this. Unless an action, or view, or law (etc.) is specifically labeled as "persecution" (by a reliable source), it should not be in this article. This article is about persecution of Buddhists, not unfair acts against them, or anything that is not persecution.

To be "persecution" it must be called "persecution" by a reliable source (preferably multiple ones).

This is an accordance with consensus on Wikipedia_talk:No_original_research/Archive_34#Persecution. Thanks.Bless sins (talk) 14:06, 27 April 2008 (UTC)