Talk:Perpignan

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This is just the kind of thing I can't lay my hands on (I am a medievalist, NOT a surrealist), but Salvador Dalí proclaimed very loudly that Perpignan, or more precisely the railroad station in Perpignan, was the center of the universe, the omphalos, the point of rest. At least one painting illustrates his contention. I, of course, can't find it now. --MichaelTinkler

Is this the one? http://www.columbia.edu/~xs23/dali/railway.html ("The Perpignan Railway Station and Gala Looking at Dali in State of Anti-Gravitation in his Work of Art "Pop-Op-Yes-Yes-Pompier" In Which One Can Contemplate the Two Anguishing Characters from Millet's Angelus in a State of Atavistic Hibernation Standing of a Sky Which Can Suddenly Burst into a Gigantic Maltese Cross Right in the Heart of the Perpignan Railway Station, Where the Whole Universe Must Begin to Converge", it says here. If the trains there were as unreliable then as they are now, he had plenty of time to contemplate it. Give me Courriers Catalanes buses any day. User:David Parker

Yep, that's the painting. You should see the studies! And you should read what he thought the Angelus was really about! MichaelTinkler

Contents 1 Capital of Rosselló comarca 2 Map 3 CATALAN kingdom of Majorca? 4 Delete Picture 5 strange 6 old fashioned coat of arm 7 flags

[edit] Capital of Rosselló comarca

I have been accused of being POV, partial, etc. So, I explain here for comments About the topic of the capitality of Rosselló comarca. It's not a past tense, it's simply present. Comarques may have official recognition or not, it does not mind. I emphasized it does not have any official recognition for Rosselló for sake of information. Please, see comarca.

Consider these references from Catalan Encyclopaedia as well:

• Rosselló comarca
• Perpinyà

I'm not making up what I have written down. It is not a political opinion, but a fact. I'm not saying that Rosselló comarca should have some kind of official recognition or whatever. Toniher 18:23, 27 December 2005 (UTC)

Listen, Catalan encyclopedias are free to use whatever POV they want to use, but here on the English Wikipedia we don't have to follow that POV. Chinese encyclopedias also say that Taiwan is a province of China, yet it does not mean that Taiwan is really a province of China. So Catalan encyclopedias may say that Roussillon is a comarca of Catalonia, it does not mean it is. Perpignan is the préfecture of the Pyrénées-Orientales département, it is also the capital of the Arrondissement of Perpignan, and it is the leading city of the communauté d'agglomération Têt-Méditerranée, that's his official administrative situation, period. Your attitude is a bit silly in itself. It's a bit as if an English user of Wikipedia was saying that Calais is the capital of an English county, just because indeed before the 16th century Calais was the capital of an English county later conquered by France. Anyway, if you keep on putting nationalist POV, especially the administrative map (the map of an administrative unit that does not even exist within France!), I will have to refer this to an admin. Hardouin 11:21, 28 December 2005 (UTC)

Hardouin, I do not want to start a futile revert war. I will not touch anything till you can understand what I'm saying or we find an agreement. I would also ask more people to join the discussion. I have the impression you are confounding what it is official with other things. First comarca != county. Despite they are usually based upon counties, comarca is a present-day used term and county is roughly a mediaeval one (at least, in the territory we are talking about). A comarca is merely a traditional way for delimiting a region. The only place, AFAIK, where comarcas have an administrative or official status behind is in the Spanish Autonomous Comunity of Catalonia. Many other places use comarca naming simply as a tourist claim of the region, that is the case of Aragon, and the very Pyrénées-Orientales. Have you visited this recently? If you drive through the highways of the département, you will see many signs with the names of the comarcas: Vallespir, Capcir, Conflent, etc.

For god's sake, saying that Perpignan is the capital of the Rosselló comarca does not mean that this depends on the Spanish Autonomous Comunity of Catalonia (which is obviously false), as I suppose you seem to understand according to your comments. Just tell me where I'm denying that Perpignan is also capital of the prefecture, for instance. If I did, my attitude would be highly lamentable since I would be trying to conceal a rotund fact. That's the same as I'm stating now, the only difference is the officiality.

The map you are referring is simply the communes / municipalities within that comarca. Nothing else. I do not care adding more information which can help the reader understand the actual and current reality, and I will do my best to do it in the linked articles, as well.

Please, simply understand that by only referring to "official" facts or what you think according to your own POV, you are omitting (or concealing) many others that can be perfectly interesting for any reader of English Wikipedia. We can discuss about the way of commenting things and I very open to do this, but I'm sorry, there is no point in saying that my contributions are false, because they simply are not and you can check it in many sources, despite you may not acknowledge them.

As a final point, I would ask you not to shout at anyone about being nationalist or whatever because I could perfectly do it in the other way around.

Best regards Toniher 14:03, 28 December 2005 (UTC)

Toniher, I don't really see any problem with "It was also capital of the historical Catalonian comarca of Rosselló" (except that I'd probably write Catalan instead of Catalonian). Verb tense is tricky here: "It is also capital of the historical Catalonian comarca of Rosselló" would also be fine, as long as we have that word "historical" in there.

On the other hand, the article Rosselló (comarca) could use a lot of fleshing out. -- Jmabel | Talk 21:39, 28 December 2005 (UTC)

Ok, I see I have overlooked the fact that there was the Catalonian adjective before comarca in my text, so I can understand a little better the reaction of Hardouin. IMHO, both possibilities "It is also capital of the historical Catalonian comarca of Rosselló" or "It is also capital of the comarca of Rosselló" are suitable, then. Toniher 22:32, 28 December 2005 (UTC)

Oops. I have checked again, and I was actually using "historical" in the sentence. Toniher 22:45, 28 December 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Map

About the comarca I have nothing else to comment about. Comarca != County. Comarca exist despite they may not have any official recognition. Using a past tense is simply untrue.

About the map. First of all, the current map of the Pyrénées Orientales is fine for me, and I would not remove it under any circumstance, because I think it is a good contribution.

But, why could not the other map be added as well? Why that insistence in removing this one I have added? I do not mind adding all the necessary information, so the reader can know what everything means. I do not want to lie anyone.

• The map is the comarca of Roussillon with all the municipalities / communes in that comarca.

Facts:

• Communes are administrative entities with official recognition in France.
• Comarca: Traditional region in Catalan-speaking community with no official recognition in France.

Discussion: I think the map I offer is informative. Specially now that there is another one centered on the departement, no one could feel afraid of whatever they may think about...

Please, comment. Toniher 17:44, 3 January 2006 (UTC)

The comarques were defined in 1936, at a time where the Rosselló and others northern catalonians lands were no longer under catalonian authority. Rosselló can't be a comarca in this 1936 sense. Furthermore, it's impossible to call it an "historical comarca" because it never was a comarca ! During all its medieval and modern history, Rosselló was a county or comtat. This comtat, together with the one of Cerdanyà, was not a part of the principat de Catalunyà, although it sended his representatives to the Corts. The comtats and the principat were different entities and one can't say what Rosselló was ever a part of the principat de Catalunyà, although it was - and still is - a part of Catalonia. Imho, this article should mentionned the historical county of Rosselló, but not the comarca, wich is an invention of the "main Catalans" ie Catalans from the former principat, and is rarely used in Perpinyà or the Rosselló. Futhermore, the map of the comarca put in Rosselló some towns what were part of Vallespir, but put in Conflent some towns of Rosselló ! The historical boundings of the counties weren't respected in the shaping of the comarques. 62.34.90.57 12:33, 21 February 2006 (UTC)

Thanks for this annotation. As I have pointed above, comarques are a relatively recent concept, of course, not mediaeval, and they may not exactly coincide with former counties. They are usual in present-day Spain (not only in Catalan-speaking territories), and they may not have official recognition everywhere. See comarca. It is very likely that comarques were adopted in Northern Catalonia following the model of Southern Catalonia by Catalan nationalists in both sides of the Spanish-French border. As can be easily checked (ex. reference in Pompeu Fabra University), this is one of the usual current ways of referring to the territory by most Catalan-speaking people. Of course, this confronts to historical nation-state French government policies (related Language policy in France. Knowing a little more about comarca term usage along history would be really interesting, anyone may provide some links or references?

Els Comtats, the Counties, is one of the different names for Northern Catalonia as you can check here. It is not presently much used in Catalan-speaking community. Nowadays, especially some Catalan independentists use the term Principat for reffering to the Autonomous Community of Catalonia. AFAIK, the Principality of Catalonia was the name of the former Catalonia, under the rule of the Generalitat de Catalunya. These comments of you say are suggesting. Please, provide some traceable references to enrich these articles, I would also try to find some time to do so as well. Toniher 14:42, 21 February 2006 (UTC)

I'm sorry I don't really know where to find references to these points apart from some books - wich isn't traceable. I'd like to say that the Comtats isn't synonymous with northern Catalonia : that latter includes only a half of the old comtat de Cerdanyà. I'd also like to say what in northern Catalonia, even in catalan-speaking circles, the term of comarca is very rarely used. It's rather perceived as a barcelonese concept used by the independentists parties which depend on Barcelona for their funding. The audience of the independentists in northern Catalonia is very low, even in the catalan-speaking part of the population. A major issue is the weakness of northern catalonian edition. All the main books on geography and history are made at Barcelona and trend to adopt a barcelonese point of view, foreshadowing the specificities of northern Catalonia, wich always kept a specific status in medieval and modern Catalonia. In a consensual optic, I propose to put in the article that Perpinyà was the capital (until 1789) of the veguerià of Rosselló. It's an actual fact and it's an introduction to the geographic specificities of the West and the East of northern Catalonia. 62.34.90.57 20:45, 21 February 2006 (UTC)

There is no problem adding references to books or providing ISBN sources. Please, do so. Are you Northern Catalonian? Some times I was there I asked people there they should involve themselves more in Internet issues, because if not, these will be dealt by French from Paris or Southern Catalans from Barcelona (I could be regarded so, despite I am actually from a neighboring comarca of Southern Catalonia). We must not forget this is not a forum about politics. I perfectly know that independentism, or just Catalan nationalism feeling, is currenly rather lower compared to the Southern territory. The degree of French assimilation is also higher in Northern Catalonia, than Spanish assimilation in Southern Catalonia. Many things can be understood if we remind these things. It's a fact that comarca is a term used in Northern Catalonia. Here we have an example of the more important Catalan cultural celebration in Rosselló. I could agree that its usage may be more minoritary even in Northern Catalonia than other Catalan-speaking territories, but it is simply there. Do not misunderstand me, I'm not discussing if comarca is a suitable thing to be used in Northern Catalonia, I am simply stating that this is presently used. We may discuss about how writing it down, but I think the discussion is more suitable in comarca or similar entries. AFAIK, Vegueria is not used by any group in Northern Catalonia with a present meaning, despite I agree this should be added in the historical context. Just as a curiosity, this concept is currently being reintroduced in Southern Catalonia, and it is very likely that, for instance, some Wikipedia articles related to Southern Catalonia might introduce it in the future.

Best regards Toniher 17:03, 22 February 2006 (UTC)

[edit] CATALAN kingdom of Majorca?

Sorry, did not exist. Never did. It was the Kingdom of Majorca/Mallorca under the ARAGONESE crown. Not to mention, that the term "Principality of Catalonia never existed" I left the history otherwise intact as I am unsure whether or not territories pertaining to Mallorca could actually be considered northern Catalonia.

Eboracum 05:04, 5 October 2006 (UTC)

If you are going to allow links to other web site very similar to mine then mine should be allowed and not continually deleted. Of course it may not be Wikipedia who is deleting it. It may well be one of the other contributors. This will be proven in time. Carl of http www,myperpignan,com Perpignan Self Cater Accommodation]. Self Catering apartment rental accommodation.

[edit] Delete Picture

Sorry I am afraid you have a picture of my house in that picture at the top of the page. Sorry but this is my holiday hom kinda thing and its kinda making me feel uneasy so could you please delete it. Thank You. Stone not Wood house —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Stone not Wood house (talk • contribs) 12:10, 3 December 2006 (UTC).

who cares pal? Paris By Night 21:06, 23 June 2007 (UTC)

[edit] strange

"It is also capital of the historical Catalan comarca of Rosselló." what is this line for? such thing does not exist. perpignan is in france since 400 years and that's all. Paris By Night 21:08, 23 June 2007 (UTC)

[edit] old fashioned coat of arm

i'm not a specialist on the subject but i do believe this coat of arm is spaniard and used in the jurassic, this is not the actual coat of arm used by the french, is it? seems like some catalan imperialist try to claim a spaniard heritage? Paris By Night 21:13, 23 June 2007 (UTC)

[edit] flags

to keep coherence (countries: israel, portugal...) the catalonian flags in the partner towns section should be changed to spanish ones.--62.57.230.59 16:09, 18 August 2007 (UTC)

Done. --Maurice27 18:34, 18 August 2007 (UTC)