Talk:Pericles

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[edit] An issue

Nice work on this article. One quibble: In the introductory paragraphs, the article says that Pericles "founded" the Athenian empire. This is not accurate. The empire, of course, developed over time and slowly from the Delian League. Themistocles gets some credit; so would Cimon for the work done in defeating Persia. Pericles is certainly one of the great proponents of the empire, but it should *not* be said that he "founded" the empire. Let's discuss this and then make an appropriate edit. Jim 19:48, 19 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Critics

As a result of his efficient governance of Athens, the period from 461 BC to 429 BC is sometimes known as "The Age of Pericles" (Though this terminology can extend to as late as 379 BC).

Is it efficiency if he takes the money from the Delian League to finance Athens? I doubt it very much. Wandalstouring 13:27, 15 August 2006 (UTC)

Aspasia is credited for lots of political influence on Perikles and perhaps making his speeches. Could we clarify her role in the life of Perikles a bit more? It is also mentioned that Perikles the younger received Athenian citizenship in 429 BC, but he was no Athenian on his mothers behalf and it was Perikles himself who had fought for a law prohibiting this.

I tranferred the initial edit about Pericles the younger in section "Personal life", in order to clarify and emphasize on it. I also mentioned and citated the antiphasis in Pericles' decisions first in 451 BC (initial law) and then 429 BC (amendment).--Yannismarou 10:47, 17 August 2006 (UTC)

I have to look it up, but didn´t Perikles also face ostracism once?

Pericles' name is found on ostracons. Nonetheless, this does not mean that Paricles was the main target of any procedure of ostracism. He never faced a serious danger of exile. Hence, he faced ostracism more than once, but he was never in danger. After his confrontation with Thucydides the conservatives desperately prompted his ostracism, but Pericles was too powerful at the moment and he prevailes. As a result, although his name was found on ostracons, he got much less ostracons than Thucydides, who was the one who got ostracized. Thereby, Pericles never faced (according to my research, at least) a serious contest in terms of a procedure of ostracism.--Yannismarou 09:02, 17 August 2006 (UTC)
It was not ostracism, he was stripped of his office and fined says Plutarch. Here is an English version: http://www.e-classics.com/pericles.htm
"A plague broke out in Athens. In the crowded city, the plague spread quickly, and soon there were dead bodies everywhere. 8 The Athenians blamed Pericles for bringing this war and this plague upon them, so they voted him out of office and fined him. As a bee leaves its stinger in the wound, the Athenians stopped bothering Pericles once he stepped down from his authority over them." Wandalstouring 10:30, 17 August 2006 (UTC)
Ah...OK! But it is mentioned within the article! If you go to section "Last military operations and death", you'll see that I mention both the fining and the stripping of the generalship in 430 BC. I also mention Cleon's role and the volatile attitude of the Athenians who forgave him within a year. In 429 BC he was once again general. I donot think there is anything more to add!--Yannismarou 10:43, 17 August 2006 (UTC)
Yes, I read you have it in the text. But why did you delete the part about Pericles the younger who also became a strategos? Aspasia`s role needs perhaps a little more attention. In her article it is pointed out she was possibly a leading figure and trained many orators. Sounds a bit different than running only a brothel. Wandalstouring 10:50, 17 August 2006 (UTC)
I did not delete the part you say, because there was no such part edited by me at least! And I did not see it, while editing. It was just mentioned that Pericles the younger got the citizenship; not that he became a general. About Aspasia, it was not my intention to show that she was just running a brothel (After all she was not! She was making visits!!). I'll try to say a few things about her role. I just want to point out that, when Plato says that she trained many orators, he does not believe it! He is ironical and taunts both her and Pericles. He wants to undermine Pericles' fame as a great orator. This is the case of Menexenus! Read Menexenus in Perseus and you'll understand that Plato is just ridiculizing (in fact, very effectively!) both Pericles and Aspasia through a very sharp irony!--Yannismarou 11:08, 17 August 2006 (UTC)
In Plato`s Menexenus Aspasia`s role is mentioned. Perhaps you could make a shortcut in Pericles to tell a bit about his "wife". Wandalstouring 10:55, 17 August 2006 (UTC)
I mention Plato's ironical references in Menexenus for both Pericles and Aspasia in the section "Oratorical Skill". I'll see what more I should write about Aspasia. But let us not overestimate her role. The rumors mentioned by Plutarch say that she was the one who caused the war between Samos and Athens, but there is a huge difference between rumors and historical reality.--Yannismarou 11:11, 17 August 2006 (UTC)
After all I just noticed in Aspasia's article that there is a template, indicating that "the factual accuracy of this article or section is disputed". I agree with the notice and, hence, I point out that we should not take as granted whatever is written (and not citated!) in this article.--Yannismarou 11:15, 17 August 2006 (UTC)
No problem, it is all from Plutarch. Your Plutarch source showed server problems several times, I used a different online transcript, where I can not link to specific parts of this short text. It is reference 40. Wandalstouring 11:28, 17 August 2006 (UTC)
Your edit in the beginning (reverting efficient) was correct and I agree. Aspasia's role in oratory is mentioned in the section "Oratorical Skill". I donot think another reference of Menexenus is necessary. I'll modify a bit this edit of yours. Is it necessary to say that she was running a brothel? It is mentioned that she was a hetaira. Isn't that enough? Too many details I think.--Yannismarou 11:37, 17 August 2006 (UTC)
Say she was a hetaira running a brothel (simply to point out she was a woman in an independent position leading an enterprise. I think this is an important detail. For example the courtesans of the French kings were not independent entrepreneurs nor the Hitler`s Eva Braun, etc. Wandalstouring 11:44, 17 August 2006 (UTC)
OK.--Yannismarou 11:46, 17 August 2006 (UTC)
Absolutely not OK, you deleted important details and added things of minor importance. The problem is, this created statements which are wrong. Pericles had 3 legitimate sons. 2 from his wife, one from Aspasia who was later recognized as his legal heir and legitimate son.

It is of minor importance what for Phidias was put to trial (someone tried very hard, so there was a trial. enough), but of much greater importance what he was for Perikles. Otherwise we do not fully inform what the political persecution really was about, but tell all minor details of the trial.Wandalstouring 12:30, 17 August 2006 (UTC)

My friend, read again the whole article. I mentioned in "Oratorical Skill" that Aspasia is said to have been a trainer of orators and in "Personal Life" that she is said to have run a bordel and about her conversational virtues. I think these sections are better for these information than the section you chose. And I'll keep your edit about Phidias' role, athough your citation is inadequate. And I'll clarify how many legitimate sons Pericles had. But donot reedit already fixed things.--Yannismarou 12:51, 17 August 2006 (UTC)

While you point out his skull was deformed, he is always shown wearing a helmet. Was this his trick to hide it and make public appearance? Wandalstouring 14:12, 15 August 2006 (UTC)

No. According to modern researchers Plutarch's explanation (in Pericles III) is regarded as naive. It is now believed that he wears a helmet as a symbol of his official rank as strategos. Check the edit I just did.--Yannismarou 10:03, 17 August 2006 (UTC)

Thanks for the critics. I just got back from vacations, but I'll soon start working in order to answer all the questions.--Yannismarou 06:55, 17 August 2006 (UTC)


Let´s continue down here, otherwise it gets a mess. We have political persecution as motive for the personal attacks. It is in this case utterly unimportant what the trialcase was in detail, but who is attacked and what position he holds (architect, oratorteacher). The aim of these attacks is to crumble the direct support Pericles needs. I did not want to mess up your reference system, but you messed the content. Wandalstouring 13:02, 17 August 2006 (UTC)

The woman he really adored was Aspasia, a hetaera, who probably ran a brothel.[1] Aspasia was spoken for her ability as a conversationalist than simply because of her physical attractions.[1]

Were do you tell Aspasia`s role now? Being his mistress does not really qualify for her social importance if Socrates mentions her as teacher. Wandalstouring 13:28, 17 August 2006 (UTC)

Well, we both messed everything, but anyway! ... I think my last edit could be satisfactory. I mention Aspasia's (her role as a political adviser as well as the ownership of the bordel) and Phidias' role in "Personal Attacks" , according to your edits, but I keep Aspasia's alleged oratorical influence in "Oratorical Skill" (and I insist!). I also returned to the initial edits about Pericles' children in "Personal Life". I think they were clear enough and I decided no to change them.--Yannismarou 13:28, 17 August 2006 (UTC)
I think it is fine now. Wandalstouring 13:34, 17 August 2006 (UTC)
Hallelujah!--Yannismarou 13:35, 17 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] My edits

A couple of points regarding the series of edits I just made. I noted in a couple of edit summaries that my changes need to be reviewed to make sure I didn't alter the sense of what was being said; this is important because I changed one statement that precedes a citation and one English translation of a Greek sentence, and I want to be sure that I'm not introducing inaccuracy with either of those changes. Second, at the places where I added material to the article, I sourced it to my "house source", as it were, the John Fine book; this is only because that was one of the few books I had ready to hand while I was making the edits. I don't want it to seem like I'm pushing 'my' source here, though, so if someone wants to change some of those citations to point to one of the sources more frequently used in the article, for the sake of consistency, I'm fine with that. --RobthTalk 06:17, 22 August 2006 (UTC)

As far I've checked until now you've not introduced any inaccuracy in both cases. The meaning of Vlachos' statement is preserved and the second statements stands fine and remains well-citated. For my part, I corrected some minor typos. I think you citation is fine; if I find anything better and replace any of your citations, I'll make a comment on that.--Yannismarou 07:53, 22 August 2006 (UTC)


i agree

[edit] Plutarch

Do we really need every statement that Plutarch makes, including the ones, like the Aspasian War, which no modern scholar sees reason to believe? Septentrionalis 16:41, 25 August 2006 (UTC)

Yes, we do! It helps us understand the atmosphere of this tense period and the way Aspasia's influence was conceived by the ancient writers, the politicians, the public etc.--Yannismarou 17:46, 25 August 2006 (UTC)

If we are using Plutarch, is it worth mentioning Shakespeare's play, inspired by Plutarch's version of Pericles's life? Cariel 03:19, 18 September 2006 (UTC)

You mean the reference at the top? It is a disambiguation. Don't get confused.--Yannismarou 08:42, 18 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Scholarship

At the moment, this article cites various opinions from various scholars, all cited as individuals. In principle, we should indicate where these are consensus, and where these are one side of a debate (and if so, include the other side). Doing this systematically would require expert knowledge of this particular field, and would require extreme care: getting this wrong would be worse than not doing it at all.

But please keep your eyes open, and if you see an opinion on one of the points in question, please note it either on the page, or on Talk. Especially this applies to the accuracy of Plutarch and Thucydides, which should probably, in the very long run, be articles on their own. Septentrionalis 18:48, 27 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Urban legend?

I remember my Grade 11 history teacher telling us that Pericles was referred to as "He with the head of an onion" by his opponents...any truth? Sherurcij (Speaker for the Dead) 03:16, 18 September 2006 (UTC)

I know and it is mentioned that the comic writers were taunting him for the unsusual size of his head.--Yannismarou 08:42, 18 September 2006 (UTC)


[edit] External links

Several of the External links seem down. Others are very brief and/or low quality. Also, there are, I think, too many of them. Any objections to me editing them? David.Kane 13:53, 18 September 2006 (UTC)

Which ones are down? Which ones do you regard as being of low quality? I checked them and none is down.--Yannismarou 14:29, 18 September 2006 (UTC)
The Popper link goes to a simple piece of text. It either belongs in the article itself or it doesn't, but it is too small to justify an External link here. (External links should feature a small number of high quality sites.) The Perseus link doesn't really work for me, at least in Firefox. It goes to a page that you can search from, but if you just hit search, you get nothing back, unless you remove the backslash by hand. Tne Muhlberger is also quite short. Does it add anything to the material that is already in the article? David.Kane 14:42, 18 September 2006 (UTC)
Muhlberger is citated and linked in the "Citations" section. I think it's good for the reader to see it in the External Links section as well, if he hasn't already noticed it. Don't remove Perseus. I'll check it; something is going on there! There was a biography!!! I don't oppose removing Popper.--Yannismarou 14:48, 18 September 2006 (UTC)
I removed Popper. The Dobson link also seems broken to me, or am I missing something? With regard to Muhlberg, there is no reason to include something in External links juste because it appears in citations. It needs to be a high quality site useful to most readers. If all the good/interesting stuff from Muhlberg is in the article, then it doesn't belong in External links. If it isn't, then it should be added. On a separate note, the font in External links is too small. It should be the same size as the main article. (I *think* that Citations often uses smaller font, but not every section after that.) You could also put External links higher up, just after See Also. David.Kane 15:06, 18 September 2006 (UTC)

Why on earth is Dobson in external links if he is cited inline? I thought you listed all your inline cited sources in the references sections.--Rmky87 18:55, 12 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] fugitive equals signs

This article is loaded with equals signs and "vvvv" which, on my Mac OS X Safari browser, look like equals signs and sets of v's. I sense it's some coding that works in some other context, and so I'm hesitant to remove it, but it should go so all contemporary browsers can present the article without error.--Mike Selinker 14:52, 18 September 2006 (UTC)

  • Never mind, it looks like it was just reverted. Looks fine now.--Mike Selinker 14:55, 18 September 2006 (UTC)

I see the same thing as of 4.05 pm GMT

[edit] Pericles Jewish: unproved?

The article (as of Sep. 18, 15:40 UTC) says that Pericles was Jewish. This assertion seems highly improbable given the historical context, and no reliable source is given to support it. A rapid Google search I made fails as well to give any. Could the author of this part please document it in a better way? If no source is provided, and if no historian confirms the fact to me, I will remove the adjective in a few days. Jérôme Plût 16:05, 18 September 2006 (UTC)

Man, this was a vandalism!--Yannismarou 16:12, 18 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Congratulations!

A stunning article!!! Kudos to all the people who made it the FA we have on the main page today!! This article is a perfect example of the strengths and quality that can be achieved in Wikipedia!! Thank you all for a wonderful article! --Michalis Famelis (talk) 16:15, 18 September 2006 (UTC)

Ευχαριστώ, Μιχάλη! But I'm tired of all these vandalisms today! If you check my userpage or the page of the article's FA nomination, you will find all the main contributors of this article.--Yannismarou 16:44, 18 September 2006 (UTC)
Welcome to the joys of being an FA, vandalism aplenty. Wheee.... EVula 16:57, 18 September 2006 (UTC)
That usually dies down after its day in the sun is over. Durova 20:21, 18 September 2006 (UTC)
Yes, I second that! Fantastically done! To all of you! When I saw this article (especially the references) I just wanted to yell "DA*M". Very nice article, 160 references is the most I have ever seen. Aaрон Кинни (t) 15:09, 30 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Alcibiades adopted nephew?

Does anyone have sources for Pericles adoption and hosting of Alcibiades? Haiduc 16:12, 30 December 2006 (UTC)

After the death of Cleinias at the Battle of Coronea in 447 BC, Pericles and Ariphron became his guardians. At this moment I remember a secondary source: Denyer, Commentary on Plato's Alcibiades, 88-89. But I'm sure there are more sources. It needs some searching.--Yannismarou 16:18, 30 December 2006 (UTC)
Primary source: Alcibiades (Plato), 104b: "[104b] that there you have, through your father, very many of the best people as your friends and kinsmen, who would assist you in case of need, and other connections also, through your mother, who are not a whit inferior to these, nor fewer. And you reckon upon a stronger power than all those that I have mentioned, in Pericles, son of Xanthippus, whom your father left as guardian of you and your brother when he died, and who is able to do whatever he likes not only in this city but all over Greece and among many great nations of the barbarians."--Yannismarou 16:25, 30 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Changing notes

I would suggest a change of the footnote style from [a] to a[›]

and

a. ^  text

to ^ a: text
Any objections? Wandalstouring 03:12, 24 January 2007 (UTC)

I don't have a problem. I don't think this is something important.--Yannismarou 07:41, 24 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Extreme number of primary source citations

I'm frankly pretty horrified that a featured article of a subject with such widely available reliable secondary sources relies so much on primary sources. Shouldn't those facts and claims be attributed to secondary sources where possible, according to our standards? Thoughts? Vassyana 00:08, 1 August 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Entire Article Misses the Point of New Scholarship

It should be noted that we essentially know nothing about the Athenian "empire" and Periclean policies. The idea of the Athenian empire is hinged on MANY uncertainties.

The Peace of Callias (ca. 449) which allegedly ended the Second Persian War is never mentioned by Herodotus or Thucydides. Why is this important? Because if a peace treaty was never signed between Persia and Greek city-states, then the war would be viewed as ONGOING. Why would Herodotus, who specifically wrote about the Persian Wars, and Thucydides omit such an important event? With this evidence, I submit the occurrence of the Peace of Callias is at best questionable. If Athens never signed a treaty with Persia ending the war, forcing and keeping Greek states in the Delian League should not be seen as a sign of imperialism

The dating of all the imperial decrees hinge on the 3-barred sigma doctrine. ATL, a team of Greek historians, set forth a doctrine suggesting all official Athenian documents switched styles of the letter "sigma" in 454 BC. Recent epigraphic studies of fragments of an alliance between a Greek city-state in Sicily suggest the "old" style of sigmas were used as late as 417 BC. Therefore, the dating of all repressive imperial decrees should be called into question. If Athens still used the old sigma as late as 417 BC, Pericles should be exonerated as the architect of an repressive empire, and Athens resorted to this tactics in desperation during the Peloponnesian War.

We cannot say for certain if Athens and Pericles strategically sought to build an empire. By doing so we are only perpetuating rumors, instead of admitting how little we know about this time period. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 131.122.58.60 (talk) 02:39, 6 October 2007 (UTC)

Do you have some sources that we could cite for this? I'm by far not an expert here but what you say sounds interesting. What do you think Yannis/Robth/anyone else?--203.173.139.220 12:56, 7 November 2007 (UTC) (aka the retired Konstable)
  • I think that provided sources are provided any improvement of the article could and should be discussed.--Yannismarou (talk) 12:23, 8 January 2008 (UTC)

Its remarkable that such a well formed article has been created with such limited sources. If we are seeing through the eyes of two biased historians they have still revealed much about a Pericles we would never have known. When knowledge of a person comes from their enemies their is a degree of suspicion about the truth of the matter. Are there any scholars who can contribute sources for an alternate view of this great manBalius (talk) 12:47, 28 February 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Picture question

British Museum
British Museum
Vatican
Vatican

Because this is an FA, and I assume there are people who are taking serious time to keep the article at its peak, I wanted to make a proposal here: the infobox photo is decent, but the statue is missing its nose. To the right are two other sculptures with the nose intact: one from the British Museum, the other from the Vatican. Would one of these be a better choice? --Bobak (talk) 17:14, 7 December 2007 (UTC)

Found another good one, at left. There are a few variations of it in the Commons.--Bobak (talk) 17:23, 7 December 2007 (UTC)
Picture in the infobox replaced.--Yannismarou (talk) 12:43, 8 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Can I edit here?

Does this article have a length issue? In a recent incident on Charles Darwin, I made an edit for some perspective on his character, and it was relocated for length issues. Here is the short discussion on it. Like then, I've found some good information and perspective on Pericles' character. So, my question is:

  • Should I add it? I know there some editors who have slaved over this article and I wanna know what you guys think.
  • If I can't add it here, is there some place I could add it?

If you want to know what the info is, or where it comes from: The perspective on his character is coming from a quote by Plutarch. It talks about his refusal to be seen at casual social events because he wanted to be seen and respected as a dignified leader. This quote is coming from the 2nd edition of the 1975 People's Almanac. I use this book as a reference often, so you you'll see it here and here. Thanks for your time and patience, Leonard^Bloom (talk) 21:53, 7 June 2008 (UTC)

This article is also long (93 kbs, and more than 90 is sometimes an issue in FAC and FAR), but, at the same time, a FA should be continuously updated to keep up to the expected by its readers standards. So, we have to keep a balance between updating and proper length. Now, to the point, if your info is up-to-date, verifiable, reliable and properly cited, and if treats an interesting aspect not already analyzed, then it would probably be a "plus" for the article. Reading your comment, I see that your info seems to belong to "Political leadership", because we do not have a "character" section, and I do not think we should create. The problem is that, if you read the article, you'll realize that it tries all the time to summarize all these difficult assessments written about Pericles (it is indeed different to effectively manage this endless material written throughout the centuries!). Yesterday, I edited the article, adding a comment on the issue "Pericles and modern neocons" after reading a excerpt from Davis Hanson on the issue, believing that it offers an interesting and not yet analyzed in the article aspect of Pericles' legacy and influence on modern politics and political philosophy (as well as on the issue of the exploitation of both Thucydides and Pericles for modern political and military purposes). Therefore, personally (as the only active editor from the group of the FA contributors - I do not see often lately Robth and Konstable]), I'd welcome any edit that would add to the article, but I would kindly ask you to try to summarize it to one-two the most sentences, as I did with my above "neocons" addition. Respectfully,--Yannismarou (talk) 11:03, 8 June 2008 (UTC)
Awesome. I'll get on that. Leonard^Bloom (talk) 17:00, 8 June 2008 (UTC)