Talk:People with the surname Nguyễn

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[edit] Alphabetization

For those names using Vietnamese order (family name, middle name, given name) I recommend alphabetizing by the first name after "Nguyen," unless recommended otherwise (i.e. the final, given name). Badagnani (talk) 02:39, 21 February 2008 (UTC)

I think the given name should be used for alphabetizing, since the middle name isn't really important. DHN (talk) 03:02, 21 February 2008 (UTC)

The only problem is that (although we know about the Vietnamese system of alphabetization) for most of our users, this system will appear confusing and illogical. Badagnani (talk) 05:28, 21 February 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Notability

Since this is going to be a large list, I propose that we use more stringent inclusion criteria than on normal Wikipedia articles. Thus I deleted a whole chunk of Vietnamese American local city councillors and other guys who are unlikely to be remembered more than a few years after their career ended, unlike the Emperors and revolutionaries etc. Blnguyen (bananabucket) 02:50, 21 February 2008 (UTC)

This is unnecessary as Nguyens who are not notable will not have WP articles. Further, Wikipedia is not paper. We are nearly finished and a 90% complete list is clearly not as good for research purposes as a 100% complete list. Badagnani (talk) 03:02, 21 February 2008 (UTC)

So you propose to have a list that has hundreds and hundreds of people? Obviously some notable people do not have articles yet, but if you include every officer from Sgt upwars, that implies that other segeants are also notable and should have redlinks prepared for them. Then half the officer corps of the ARVN and PAVN will have redlinks available. Generals and Colonels are enough. And if a US city councillor is good enough, then any district level Communist party politician is notable and we will need a few thousand redlinked VCP pollies there... Blnguyen (bananabucket) 03:05, 21 February 2008 (UTC)

This is precisely the reason I'm leery of starting an article like this. Due to the systemic bias of Wikipedia (recentism and reliance on English-language sources), it's bound to have people who aren't really notable compared to people who are not included and we'd end up with a ridiculous list. DHN (talk) 03:07, 21 February 2008 (UTC)

I don't think there are that many. Maybe 100 or so. It seems to be nearly finished. There probably aren't as many as the List of Irish Americans, which includes all surnames. Badagnani (talk) 03:27, 21 February 2008 (UTC)

But lists aren't "complete" when the list= list of all bluelinks. If you create a list of all people who fit Wikipedia notability standard, there will be tens of thousands. The list isn't complete because it contains all existing articles, a list can only be complete if you have everything that meets the definition of the list. Thus, if you mean general WP standards, then there are thousands more people who are notable than even the sergeants and local city councillors, let alone those of equal notability. If you say ok, Tung M. Nguyen, has a WP article, put him in, then you would need all other Nguyen sergeants and above for it to be complete and consistent, else this is People with the surname Nguyễn who also have a Wikipedia biography. Blnguyen (bananabucket) 03:42, 21 February 2008 (UTC)

I don't think there are very many articles on such low-level sergeants (and, if there are, perhaps those articles should be deleted for lack of real notability). Badagnani (talk) 03:48, 21 February 2008 (UTC)

As an example, 8/26 of the current cabinet of Vietnam are Nguyens [1] (including the PM). Any of those people would be more notable than any of the Vietnamese-American/Canadian/Australian politicians in this list. DHN (talk) 03:51, 21 February 2008 (UTC)

Endorse DHN's removals. The city council and state/provincial politicians will swamp out everyone. Blnguyen (bananabucket) 04:55, 21 February 2008 (UTC)

As there are so many Nguyens around, the question "Is this person mentioned in a book or a scholarly journal?" will tell us whether they should be on this list. We simply can't have thousands of WP:N standard people here. Blnguyen (bananabucket) 04:00, 21 February 2008 (UTC)

I've just come across a number of seemingly non-notable people in my searches. Badagnani (talk) 04:37, 21 February 2008 (UTC)

I removed the Khang Nguyen article. Another gem from Bnguyen (talk · contribs). We aren't going to have an article for every minor schoolteacher, policeman, government office clerk from South Vietnam who was killed in a Vietcong bombing or assassination. Each time there was a overthrow of an emperor in the old days, a few high level mandarins and other bureaucrats would get killed, just a general government official killed in an attack isn't notable. Blnguyen (bananabucket) 04:55, 21 February 2008 (UTC)

The list isn't so long that the U.S. politicians and geomancer needed to have been removed. That doesn't enhance the page for our users, who will use this article for research purposes. Badagnani (talk) 05:08, 21 February 2008 (UTC)

But in order to satify NPOV, the list also needs to obey undue weight. One way that NPOV works is if everyone in district level politics including all the Vietnamese Communist Party district members upwards gets an article along with all those nn Vietnamese American council politicians. Or else you make tougher criteria for this list to be of highly notable Nguyens. If you just have the inclusion criteria as bluelinks, then the article will become massively recentist and biased towards minor notability Americans who are less notable than thousands of other Nguyens who have been federal government mandarins etc or military leadership figures in Vietnam, and would not be NPON. Blnguyen (bananabucket) 05:14, 21 February 2008 (UTC)

The most notable thing about the geomancer that I removed (Nguyễn Sinh Khiêm) is that his brother happens to be Ho Chi Minh. DHN (talk) 05:10, 21 February 2008 (UTC)

It won't become "massively" anything because it's comparable to similar lists that have already been mentioned (yet not responded to), and because it's finished. Those individuals that are not notable should not have WP pages in the first place. If they do, and should, they are notable. Badagnani (talk) 05:17, 21 February 2008 (UTC)

It's not finished, because there are heaps of generals, top ranking mandarins and cabinet ministers and other people who meet the current standrad of inclusion that do not have articles. All these Vietnamese American Tv personalities, they are no more notable than any other TV personality in VN. By your inclusion policy, every Olympian would be included, so their article needs to be created. And wrt to other lists on Wikipedia, most of them are randomly compiled. Blnguyen (bananabucket) 05:21, 21 February 2008 (UTC)

Yes, if you use your inclusion criteria, we will end up with 20% people active in teh last 20 years. If that isn't recentist, what is? Nguyen Tuong Tam was a leader of the VNQDD and he isn't there. Blnguyen (bananabucket) 05:24, 21 February 2008 (UTC)

I don't think it assists our users if recent, ancient, medium, partly recent, strongly recent, very old, etc. are left out. All individuals notable enough for their own articles are valuable in assisting the research this article will be used for. Badagnani (talk) 05:27, 21 February 2008 (UTC)

The List of Irish Americans (which hasn't been responded to) is split into sub-lists. If necessary, that could be done to accomodate all the individuals who are mentioned might eventually have their own articles. There aren't any problems. Badagnani (talk) 05:31, 21 February 2008 (UTC)

Well then, do put in all the notable redlinks or this article can't be "complete" or "consistent" with your standards. Then you need to put in all district level politicians since they are also consistent with your standards. Then we'll have 10,000+. If we don't have 10,000+ article, we'll have a POV article. But I doubt that matter to you, since you are always stuffing the Han tu etymology into any old stub, and then we end up with articles with 50% etymology sections. But I know from your actions that WP:UNDUE is not something that you care about. I don't see the point in going round in circles arguing with you, but with your editing policies, none of your articles will pass any quality control measures like WP:GAC or WP:FLC. Blnguyen (bananabucket) 05:32, 21 February 2008 (UTC)

I think you better cool off. Take a break or something. DHN (talk) 05:35, 21 February 2008 (UTC)

I'm doing fine. But I think I've made my point. Perhaps this is getting a bit hot for WP:VIET standards since it is mostly an empty paddock with no fights, but I don't think there's much to be worried about. This is very tame stuff for Wikipedia in general. I haven't called anyone names yet or mocked anyone. Back to the Dong Son culture cruft and my other article writing. Blnguyen (bananabucket) 05:39, 21 February 2008 (UTC)

It's just a question of outlook. I can't go beyond what is humanly possible and create all possible articles at once. Regarding etymology, more information for our users is better than less. But we can't go beyond what is humanly possible; we build brick by brick. We all work hard to do this, and shouldn't criticize one another for doing our best to work as volunteers to provide the most comprehensive information for our users. I do know that vi:WP has a different practice, of generally making sure articles are comprehensive before starting them, but my own outlook is to at least create a small article, then let others with more expertise build on them. I think this works well. The new articles on every district of every province of Vietnam are great to have, for example. Lists of individuals with each surname (those who have articles of their own) are very useful as well, at least for me. Nguyens are a special case but I don't think it will be overwhelming because the list does seem comparable to others similar lists we already have, and which can be manageable. Badagnani (talk) 05:36, 21 February 2008 (UTC)