Talk:People's Liberation Army of Macedonia

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[edit] Recent deletions

Im currently reviewing some recently added sources. they are supposed to support the recently added statments that this army was "part of the yugoslav movement". Most of them will be removed:

  • [1], Утрински весник, Раѓањето на македонската држава (Macedonian)

Reason for deletion: Its misenterpreted for political reasons: It says:
Македонскиот народ првпат во својата историја имаше сојузници и со југословенските народи, на чело со КПЈ, се вклучи во антифашистичката коалиција (The Macedonian people for the first time in its history had allies and with the Yugoslav peoples, led by the Yugoslav Communist party, it (the Macedonian people) joined the antifascist struggle.)

Theres no explicit statement saying the "The Macedonian Liberation Army was a Yugoslav army". On contrary, it says that the Macedonian movement was an ally to the Yugoslav one led bythe Communist Party of Yugoslavia (like it was an ally to the US, British and Soviet).

This is sophistic, and very false at that. The army of the ethnicities of Macedonia was the same as the army of all ethnicities of Yugoslavia, commanded by one headquarters with a top commander Tito: this was Yugoslavian army -- in words and in deeds. Its aim was to restitute the state of Yugoslavia, and it achieved this aim. Macedonian ethnicities were not allies of the Yugoslavian army, they were part of it. They were allies to US, British, and Soviet, but they were not part of those armies, because they were not under direct command of US, British, and Soviet. Lantonov 08:35, 8 November 2007 (UTC)
  • [2], Утрински весник, Тито има големи заслуги за Македонија (Macedonian)

Reason: the text has nothing to do with the army itself. Its an overview of Tito's role for Macedonia. Moreover its says: Според него, Титовото време, односно НОБ, која се одвиваше на просторите на Кралска Југославија, претставувала силен морален фактор во развојот на македонската народноослободителна борба, иако во определен период таа немала физички контакт со силите на НОБ во другите делови на Југославија.

Translation: According to him, the Tito's era, meaning the Liberation War which took place in what was Kingdom of Yugoslavia once, represented a strong moral factor in the development of the Macedonian Liberation Struggle, although during a certain period, it (the Macedonian movmement) didnt have any physical contact with the forces of the Liberation Movement from the other parts of Yugoslavia.

"Моралната поддршка и авторитетот на КПЈ беше оној фактор кој имаше силно значење за мобилизација на македонскиот народ. Translation: The moral support of the Communist Party of Yugoslavia was the factor which had a significance in the mobilization of the Macedonian people. Again a clear misinterpretaion. Its says "It gave a moral support", it doesnt say "it was organized by" or something.

It doesn't say anything about the form of the "moral support" either. Taken together with other sources which you deleted, we see that the "moral support" are Tito's emissaries like Tempo. Lantonov 08:35, 8 November 2007 (UTC)
  • [3], Утрински весник, Киселиновски ги политизира историските личности (Macedonian)

Reason: this is not a historical source, but a public polemic in the press between some persons named Novica Veljanovski and Kiselinovski.

Polemic is also a source of information. Lantonov 08:35, 8 November 2007 (UTC)
  • [4], 2003, Македонско сонце Ефтим Гашев, Катаракта (Macedonian)

Reason: Eftim Gašev is not a hitorian, nor a military scientist. He is a private individual publicist, columnist and journalist. The credibility of his work is not clear to me. Moreover, he was persecuted by the post-war communist authorities and thus, the neutrality and objectivity of his texts may be questioned.

The fact that the credibility of the source is not clear to you, is not a reason to delete it. There are people for whom the credibility of the source is clear. Lantonov 08:35, 8 November 2007 (UTC)
  • [5] Кои беа партизаните во Македонија - Никола Петров, Скопје, 1998 (Macedonian)

reason: a book by some author with questionable relevance hosted at a private nationaliust website. This will not go.

The relevance is questioned by whom? You? Do not delete a source, only because of you believing otherwise. Lantonov 08:35, 8 November 2007 (UTC)

End of report Dzole

[edit] Pure nonsence

Quotes from Jingby's tendentious pro-Bulgarian "contributions":

"The Yugoslav Partisans, under the command of Josip Broz Tito, drawing on a communist ideology to win support that crossed national lines, steadily gained power during the struggle, winning recognition from the Allies and the government-in-exile as the Yugoslav legitimate fighting force."

RE: The Kingdom of Yugoslavia's royal government in exile supported the royalist and anti-communist chetniks of Draza Mihajlovic (Royal Yugolsav Army in the Fatherland). They were enemies to the communist resistance.

The Yugoslav People's Liberation War in Vardar Macedonia started in October 1941

RE: another nonsence. As explained in the section above, for a long part of the war there was no contact between the Yugoslav and the Macedonian movements. Tempo (Tito's envoy to Macedonia) came later, not in 1941. Later the Macedonian army was indeed joined to the Yugoslav forces but that was at the end of the war when Macedonians were sent to the Srem Front in 1945 against their will, for which they started an unsucesful revolt in Skopje (mentioned in the National Liberation War of Macedonia).

"But the situation here was specific. Metodi Shatarov - Šarlo, a leading member of the Yugoslav Communist Party for Vardar Macedonia refused to define the Bulgarian forces as occupiers (contrary to instructions from Belgrade). The CPY formally decided to launch an armed uprising on July 4, 1941 but Šarlo refused to distribute the proclamation of calling for military actions against Bulgarian army."

RE: This is controversial. Its true he was considered a "traitor" by the SFR Yugoslav and the SR Macedonia's historiography, however, after the breakup of Yugoslavia, the Macedonain press published Shatorov letters in which he clearly defines the Bulgarian amry as occupators. Having no sources at the moment I will not add that to the article. On the other hand, Shatorov is irrelevant to this article, because its an article about the army in which he didnt take part. This is not a general overview of the WWII in today's Republic of Macedonia. For that you have National Liberation War of Macedonia so dont fork the content.

With the ongoing war and after eliminating of Šarlo new anti-fascist partisan squads were constantly formed and in 1942 a total of nine small partisan detachments were active in Vardar Macedonia and had maintained control of mountainous territories around Prilep, Skopje, Kruševo and Veles.

RE: again irrelevant informations. Jingiby, having absolutely no military knowledge, in his blind nationalist campaigning against Macedonian articles fails to note a difference between:

a) Partisan guerilla detachments (the innitial stage of the resistance)
b) Army, which is a more complex organization including officers and their hierarchy , a unit structure such as: batalions, brigades and all that, then heavier weaponry (because they captured some after the capitulation of Italy) and so on.

So, in the later course of the war, there was an ARMY which fought frontal battles like any other regular army AND there were remaining PARTISAN DETACHMENTS who fought a guerilla warfare to support THE ARMY. The armed forces as a whole were called People's Liberation Army of Macedonia (NOV) AND Partisan Detachments of Macedonia (POM).

On November 1942, the Partisan leaders of Yugoslavia convened the first AVNOJ meeting at Bihać, in the hope of gaining political legitimacy.

RE: how is this related to the Macedonian National Liberation Army?

Because of the unwillingness of local Communists for mass struggle against the Bulgarian Army, the Supreme Staff of CPY took measurements of strengthening the campaign. The policy of minimal resistance changed towards 1943 with the arrival of the Montenegrin Svetozar Vukmanović-Tempo, who began to organize an armed struggle.

RE: This is Jingybis personal interpretation of why Tito sent Tempo to Macedonia. Others say for example that Tito sent Tempo to put the already active autonomous Macedonian movement under Yugoslav control. I have no sources to support that right now, nor Jyngby has for his claims and so this will be removed.

Overview of Jingibis "sources":

RE: Macedonians are mentioned in a completely different context (as one of the ethnic groups that populated Yugoslavia). There is no excplicit statement saying "The Macedonian army" was part of the Yugoslav.

RE: First of all, Marxist org? Second, this text was published in 1966, normally it represents an ideological persepctive of the former SFR Yugoslav historiography.

RE: This is a wider overview, includes acts of resistance such as demonstrations, boycotts and what not. Its not a website about the army, thats why i removed it last time. It does indeed mention the Provincial Comittee of the Yugoslav Communist Party for Macedonia (МК-КПЈ) however there's not much about THE ARMY itself, its goals etc. Also, it covers events that occured only on a certain territory (Bitola and the surrounding), with certain exceptions such as when the Bitola units or individuals were involved in some events that occured somewhere else.

  • [6] Кои беа партизаните во Македонија - Никола Петров, Скопје, 1998 (Macedonian)

This is a personal Bulgarian nationalist website maintained by Vassil Vassilev Karloukovski, a professor of geography and minerology, whose academic credentials have nothing to do with military history. Moreover, this text "Who were the partisans" which is hosted at Karlukovski's personal web library is written by an openly biased author, whose academic reputation (if any) is highly questionable. He is widely if not totaly irrelevant in the scientific circles in his country, Republic of Macedonia. Unfortunatelly this questionable source is used in many other Macedonia-related articles, which is a great damage to Wikipedia's reliability. This "source" will not go, until Im alive.

This source is a book, not a web site, so that the qualifications of the maintaner of the site referred to above are totally irrelevant. When you speak with such "authority" about the irrelevance of Nikola Petrov, you must give sources to support this argument. You give no sources, only your beliefs and judgements. Therefore, this source is completely relevant, and should be cited as often as possible because it is free of Macedonist propaganda and relies completely on original primary sources. From this book, it is evident that Nikola Petrov is a very accurate and conscientiuos contemprary RoM historian. Lantonov 06:29, 9 November 2007 (UTC)

The nature of the rest of the "sources" is explained in detail in the section above. Jyngiby abuses the fact that many Wikipedia readers or admins do not understand Macedonian, so they cannot see that these sources have little (tangential) or no relevance to the subject.

  • [7], Утрински весник, Раѓањето на македонската држава (Macedonian)
  • [8], Утрински весник, Тито има големи заслуги за Македонија (Macedonian)
  • [9], Утрински весник, Киселиновски ги политизира историските личности (Macedonian)
  • [10], 2003, Македонско сонце Ефтим Гашев, Катаракта (Macedonian)
There was NOT such a thing as ethnic "Macedonians" at the time. The term "Macedonian" for the Yugoslavic Bulgar minority was invented after the fall of Tito just for having a national identity and a supposed historical presence in the area. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 92.118.191.48 (talk) 00:08, 27 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] About Tempo

First - read the article about him in Wikipedia Svetozar Vukmanović-Tempo. He is described not from me as follows During World War II he served on the Supreme Staff, .... and became Josip Broz Tito's personal representative in Macedonia. Second - read the next articles from Open society Arhives where he is described at the same way. Jingby 19:57, 6 November 2007 (UTC) [11] [12] [13]

Во својот реферат до ЦК на ЈКП од 8 август 1943 г. Светозар Вукмановић – Темпо вели: «Во почетокот на март 1943 г. Пристигнав во Македонија каде што ја затекнав следната положба : Партијските организации во организационен однос беа во речиси полно разделување....Тоа се должи пред се на бугарското сознание на превладувачкиот дел од населението на Мкаедонија, кое не го поднесува антибугарскиот дух и не допушта да се дигне рака против Бугарија.»

Темпо пишува : «Кога пристигнав во Македонија, ја најдов следната состојба : партиските организации во организационен однос беа речиси во полно разпаѓање......Во текот на 1942 г. е имало шест одреди од по 10-15 борци и тие сите биле разбиени освен Битолскиот, кој што поминал на албанска територија и тоа сам на своја глава и така се запазил.»

Во окупираните од Италианците делови на Македонија на 11 ноември 1943 г. под раководството на Црногорецот Темпо се формира «Прва Македонско-Косовска бригада». Самиот партизански водач Страхил Гигов го зборува следното за нејзиниот национален состав : «Таа бригада беше составена од Македонци, Срби, Шиптари, Словенци и други националности од нашата социалистичка целост.» Jingby 20:08, 6 November 2007 (UTC)


Comment: First of all this section belongs to the bottom of the page as you started it after my last post and thats why I moved it. Let me reply:

  1. Wikipedia is a project created by enthusiasts (and agenda pushers like yourself) and can often (if not always) include unverified info, tendentious claims and whatnot. Some university professors go even further, they even discourage the use of Britanica, let alone Wikipedia. You cannot be serious to provide me a wikipedia article as a source unless its a really well sourced and neutral article (which is a really rare, if not completely extinct kind of animal). In short: I will not read Tempo's article.
The above statement shows a great disrespect for the Wikipedia, and the Wiki idea as whole. The refusal to read Tempo article overturns the whole argument, as it is seen that one side of the discussion refuses to even consider the evidence presented by the other side on a basis of preconceptions. Lantonov 09:13, 8 November 2007 (UTC)
  1. These websites that you offer: As far as I could see the texts primarily deal with the Yugoslav-Bulgarian relations "Tempo said that to Traiche Kostov, Kostov said this'n'that to Tito, Tito said this'n'that to Dimitrov", I dont understand what are you trying to prove with them? Yes Tempo was Tito's envoy to Macedonia but the Macedonian resistance was already active a couple of years before his arrival. The army was formed in August 1943, while the Macedonian-Kosovo brigade (according to your strange quotes) was formed in November.
From August 1943 to November 1943 is a period of 3 months, not "a couple of years". Lantonov 09:13, 8 November 2007 (UTC)
  1. As for the mentioned quotes you offered: First of all, what is the source anyway and why they are not written in standard Macedonian? (Let me guess they are copy/paste from a Bulgarian site?). And second, Tempo's undermining of the Macedonian war efforts can be explained as this: He was probably sent by Tito to put the already existing Macedonian resistance under Yugoslav control, to prevent its eventual secession. The fact that he was confronted by Metodija Andonov Chento because of his attempts to subordinate the Macedonian movement tells a lot. The Macedonian movement, be it big or small- wanted to be independent, but it was "absorbed" later, esspecialy after some of its key figures were murdered under controversial circumstances: Kocho Racin is a notable example. Some also mention Kuzman Josifovski- Pitu [14], but its still unclear. Add Chento's persecution after the war to the list and you'll get the full picture about what the Macedonian resistance movement really stood for and why those guys ended like they ended and why Tempo presented them in a negative light (after he hypotheticaly staged their murders). All this of course is my own interpetation which doesnt have to be accurate. The difference is that, having no sources at the moment, unlike you I refrain from adding unverified info to the article. Instead, for now I prefer to leave it in a "basic facts" state: There was a resistance - fact, there was a Macedonian army- fact, it had its own MACEDONIAN General Staff- fact, its own official commanding language - fact, the modern Macedonian army claims continuity to them-fact etc...
Sources are not in "standard Macedonian" because "standard Macedonian" did not exist at this time -- it was created in 1945 by Tito's order. Jазикот дека го сборуваате беше Б'лгарски (even not Бугарски). The "Macedonian" movement "wanted" to be independant? Or "Macedonian" writers half a century later wanted it to be "Macedonian"? "Absorbed" by whom? By Tempo? You do not have sources for your claims but that does not mean that sources supporting the opposite claim are unreliable. There was a resistance - fact: Yes, primarily in regions of Yugoslavia occupied by Germans and Italians - fact. There was Macedonian Army - non-fact: There was Yugoslavian Army. There was Macedonian general staff - false: There was Yugoslavian general staff led by Tito, and Macedonian regional staff, led by the Tito's emissary Tempo. Official "commanding language"? If you refer to "Macedonian", it became official later - 1945, only in the Yugo Republic Macedonia. If we add the fact that Tempo and his entourage spoke Serbian, this statement is also false. Lantonov 07:37, 7 November 2007 (UTC)
  1. The Macedonian-Kosovo brigade - so what? I can voluntarily interpret it as this: There were also units made of deserted Italian soldiers too and? can you claim now that the Macedonian WWII struggle was part of the Italian antifascist struggle?? On the other hand, it can be explained as Tempo's attempt to merge the Macedonian movement to the Yugoslav one. You can interpret it as: The Macedonians didnt want to fight the Bulgarians so Tempo brought Serbs, Albanians, Slovenians and Martians to act like a "Macedonian army". But what is the true story? We dont know, so we will refrain from adding our personal opinions, right? Right.
The fact that you do not know about ethnicities does not give you the right to remove sources written by participants in the events. They speak about Serbs, Albanians, Tsintsars, Vlachs (true, not Martians). Lantonov 09:13, 8 November 2007 (UTC)
  1. Шиптари(Shiptari, a mispronounciation of "Shqipetare") A high ranked Yugoslav politician could never use such politicaly incorrect designation for Albanians. Brotherhood and Unity rings a bell? Its true that it was used officialy during a certain period until it was replaced by "Albanci". Either your quotes are from an older period or most probably they are fake. --Dzole 23:27, 6 November 2007 (UTC)
What if the sources are from older period. They must be older, because we are not talkin about a recent event. Lantonov 09:13, 8 November 2007 (UTC)

Ah, and I forgot one more important thing: you mention AVNOJ and you insist on putting it in the article. Let me tell you that Macedonian delegates didnt take part in it. Yes, they were on the list of participants! But they never actually attended. Some say it was "because of the great snow storm" (yes, yes such explanations existed), some say that it was imposible for them to go through enemy controled territory all the way to Jajce, and finally: refer to what i wrote above about the Yugoslav-Macedonian relations- that can be one of the interpretations too. Btw that "snow" thing became an offten quoted joke after Macedonia changed to pluralism and the "taboo subjects" started to come out from under the carpet (like Chento, Racin etc) --Dzole 23:41, 6 November 2007 (UTC)

The fact that Macedonian participants did not reach Jajce has no significance. It means only that decisions were taken without them. Those decisions were implemented, in many instances forcefully, and no one of the Yugoslav command cared for excuses of the Macedonian delegation for not participating. Lantonov 09:13, 8 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Sources?

This article is a clear case of one person judging history written by many and executing them in one sweep by deleting their sourced contributions. What is left as "sources" he deemed reliable is only a site of RoM Ministry of Defence that by definition contains propaganda material (unsourced of course). Lantonov 07:03, 7 November 2007 (UTC)


reply: you are right that there are no enough sources, however i find it hypocritical that you preach about the rules which you breached yourself (a notable example: National Liberation War of Macedonia), which you and your compatriots turned into glorification of the Bulgarian armies of WWII. But anyway, for the sake of objectivity i will add apropriate tags to the article, at the same time i will remove the irrelevant bbc link which doesnt say anything about the Macedonian army itself (it mentions Macedonians only as one of the ethnic groups in former Yugoslavia), quote:

Broadly speaking, there were two main ethnic groups - the Serbs and the Croats - plus three other smaller ethnic groupings - Albanians, Macedonians, Slovenes. The Serbs predominantly followed the Orthodox Church, although many Bosnians were Muslims ('Bosnians' are the descendants of Serbs who converted to Islam many centuries ago, and lived in Bosnia-Hercegovina). Greater Croatia, in addition to its Christian Croat population, also contained significant Islamic populations, either in parts of Bosnia or Croatia proper. Hitler was able to profit from the tension between these ethnic groups, particularly that between the Serbs and Croats. [15]

I tried to find any other mentioning of Macedonia, the Macedonians etc. in that page - there's none. Nothing is mentioned about the People's Liberation Army of Macedonia nor its relation to the Communist Party of Yugoslavia

The rest of my edits are explained in detail in the sections above I dont have to repeat them. I wasnt writing all those things for nothing. However I will note that you re-added AVNOJ again. This is becoming absurd, no Macedonian delegate took part at its most important 2nd Session held on 29 November 1943 in Jajce (when SFRY was formed) and that historical event itself is not directly rekated to the ARMY we are talking about. --Dzole 00:11, 8 November 2007 (UTC)

This is exactly the problem with your thinking and your edits -- that in every historical source you want to see the name "Macedonia" and "Macedonian". Well, in most of those sources there is no "Macedonian" simply because it was not. This is true for the language, for the nationality, for the names of the armies, the goals of struggles, etc. In many of the sources in which you are looking for "your" history there is the word "Bulgaria" or "Bulgarian" instead. There are two solutions to this problem that Macedonists use: either strike out "Bulgarian" and replace it with "Macedonian", or write a long and winded explanation that by Bulgarian one must understand "Macedonian". You invented a third solution: delete sources that do not mention the word "Macedonian". I find some consolation in the fact that something similar happens with "Yugoslavian" vs "Macedonian". Lantonov 07:37, 8 November 2007 (UTC)

btw it says "Bosnians are descendants of serbs who converted to islam". How credible is this author of your BBC source? Im sure Bosniaks would contest these claims --Dzole 00:22, 8 November 2007 (UTC)

Very credible for this statement. Read a history of Bosnia, and you will be enlightened on the matter. Even read Serbian historians, like Corovic and Cvijic, they write the same thing. For the sake of completeness, it must be added that muslim Bosniaks are also descendants of Croats, and of Bogomils with Serb or Croat origin who lived in Bosnia (and Herzegovina -- herzeg Stephan) long ago (14-16 centuries). Lantonov 07:45, 8 November 2007 (UTC)

btw purely informational they were Muslims by nationality in the former SFRY --Dzole 00:24, 8 November 2007 (UTC)

Muslim is a religion, not nationality. It is like me saying that I am a Christian by nationality. Lantonov 07:45, 8 November 2007 (UTC)
Your explanations about deletion are very unsatisfactory and only show your bias. I will not comment on them only because I do not have enough time but it is very easy to spot the bias for a person who knows facts about Bulgarian history. As for National Liberation War of Macedonia, I did not breach a single rule, on the opposite, I tried to make one of your (and my, unfortunately) compatriots to observe the rules and not to add Macedonist propaganda lies and vandalize the page. He did not listen, went on the way of personal attacks and was banned because of it. Lantonov 06:35, 8 November 2007 (UTC)
I consider your explanations completely unsatisfactory and your bias is more than obvious, not only here but in many other Macedonia-related articles. You constantly push that BBC link which doesnt mention anything about the ARMY we are talking about, nor about Apostolski, nor about Tempo nor about Chento nor about anything relevant to this subject here. It doesnt even mention it as for example "Yugoslav Army for Macedonia" or "Operations of the Yugoslav Army in Macedonia". It says nothing. It may be useful for People's Liberation Army of Yugoslavia (i doubt) but not here. This is an article about the People's Liberation Army of Macedonia. Speaking of the Bosnians, although its an offtopic, in the SFRY they were officialy recognized under that neologism Muslims by nationality, whatever that means I dont care, its a fact --Dzole 17:03, 8 November 2007 (UTC)

Moreover, you may consider ethnic Macedonians as fabricated nation. OK, thats your problem. However a military formation called People's Liberation Army of Macedonia existed, as ASNOM exited too etc. You may say all that was fabricated by Tito, OK, again your problem. The BBC does not mention it in any connotation whatsoever, neither as an authentic movement, neither as fabricated, neither as Yugoslav, neither as Martian. Theres nothing on that link about this armed formation. --Dzole 17:26, 8 November 2007 (UTC)

Regarding Bosnians:(Agreed. I would say that it is a strange creation of Serbo-Yugoslavian ruling circles, but the fact is a fact. They cannot even boast originality - mixing religion with ethnicity is done from time to time throughout history. Lantonov 09:06, 9 November 2007 (UTC))
Do not put words in my mouth, which I never said. First, I never said that Macedonian nation is "fabricated" so that this is not my problem. My problem (and a problem of any responsible person) is with people who misinterprete and fabricate (yes, fabricate, forge, fake, falsify, as is the case with the "Proclamation of Kresna-Razlog Uprising") historical sources, or, which is worse, delete sourced material that does not correspond with their views or beliefs. Second, I did not say that ASNOM did not exist. What I say is that it was commanded by Tito, and his emissaries, and this is based on sources. The fate of Cento, and other persons who were killed, and imprisoned because they differed with the high command with respect to the aim of the resistance, only comes to support the view that ASNOM was created as part of Yugoslavian resistance despite the last letter of the acronym. Now, if you say that with this I am pushing an Yugoslavian, or Serbian POV, I will only be obliged for the kind words. Lantonov 07:44, 9 November 2007 (UTC)