Talk:Pennsylvania Route 43

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[edit] Exit list

US 119 doesn't merge with PA 43 at exit 8; it merges at an unnumbered interchange a short distance south of US 40. Exit 8 and this unnumbered interchange are not the same exit.

The extraneous information now present in the footer of the exit list would be better suited for the article proper. The purpose of the exit list is to provide a quick glance of what exits exist on the road, not to provide a explanation as to why the road is segmented. --TMF Let's Go Mets - Stats 21:48, 1 February 2007 (UTC)


The "extraneous information" has been moved to the article. No where in the exit list does it imply that PA 43 merges with US 119 at exit 8. Rather it states that Exit 8 is Big Six Road TO US 119 and PA 857. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 207.255.126.105

That's not the impression I get. Even if it was, the list no longer mentions the US 119/PA 43 concurrency (nor does it even hint that it exists) nor does it have the Uniontown exit. Honestly, I still fail to see what was wrong with my exit list. --TMF Let's Go Mets - Stats 23:24, 1 February 2007 (UTC)
The almight PennDOT says its so so it must be. Have you listened to anything I said? Its a technicality. Direct question... how do you know about this road? By looking at maps or websites or by actually driving on it?
PA 43 Ends in Uniontown. It is never "concurrent" with US 119, it simply ends in Uniontown, if you are heading northbound. PA 43 begins again near Brownsville. The Uniontown-Brownsville link of PA 43 is under construction and not open. When it is completed, there will be a concurrency between US 119 and PA 43, but at the current time there is no concurrency, so stating so in your exit list was incorrect information. When PA 43 ends, there is a concurrency between US 40/US 119, which is implied.
Anon editor, please leave the exit list as it was before you changed it. And what TMF said is true—the exit list is only supposed to be quick glance of what exits are on the road, not to provide an explanation as to why the road is segmented. This information should be placed in a "Miscellanea" section, as defined by the project standards. Your mods with the exit list do not really comply with the exit list standards. And no, it doesn't matter if you drive on this road regularly, the standards still come first. V60 VTalk - VDemolitions 23:42, 1 February 2007 (UTC)
(edit conflict) Maps indicate otherwise, but the PA 43 exit list at PA Highways is a bit vague. I see what you're saying now, but the fact that every map I've seen extends PA 43 to US 40 (and thus shows PA 43 as concurrent with US 119 between Morgantown Road and US 40) leads me to believe otherwise. --TMF Let's Go Mets - Stats 23:44, 1 February 2007 (UTC)
Also, [1] indicates the northern terminus is at US 40/US 119 and that PA 43 runs concurrent to US 119 between Morgantown Road and US 40, as I indicated above. --TMF Let's Go Mets - Stats 23:49, 1 February 2007 (UTC)
And, lastly, to quote State-Ends.com: "The end sign sits at the PA 857/US 119 Fairchance/Smithfield Exit. (Exit 8) However, South PA 43 signs are posted a mile further north at the US 40 exit. " (emphasis mine). --TMF Let's Go Mets - Stats 23:52, 1 February 2007 (UTC)
TMF, go ahead and revert, since the anon's edit is a violation of WP:NOR. Unless if he/she can find a reliable source to his/her claim, the exit list will stay as-is. V60 VTalk - VDemolitions 23:54, 1 February 2007 (UTC)

Sounds like you've never been on the road? I have. Its kind of a complicated intersection of 3 roads, basically what happens, if you are heading north, theres an exit that goes to US 119 South/Morgantown Road North. The on ramp is US 119 North. At that point, theres a sign that says "END PA 43". And theres an exit for US 40 east. Then US 40 West merges with US 119 North. If you are southbound on US 119S/US 40 E heading towards the beginning of PA 43, the following happens: US 40 E exits off to Hopwood, US 119 S exits to a two lane road, and the expressway becomes PA 43 (theres a sign, "BEGIN PA 43"). Again, I've travelled this road many times, so I don't need a map to tell me what is actually happening. IF YOU HAVEN'T BEEN ON THE ROAD, THE MAPS AREN'T ENTIRELY ACCURATE AS IT IS A CONFUSING INTERSECTION THAT WAS VERY RECENTLY CHANGED.

Your claim is a violation is WP:NOR. Please read that very carefully, as standards and policies come before correct information. V60 VTalk - VDemolitions 23:59, 1 February 2007 (UTC)

The WP:NOR states: "Primary sources are documents or people very close to the situation you are writing about. An eyewitness account of a traffic accident is a primary source. The White House's summary of a president's speech is a primary source." I believe I qualify as a "primary source" as someone who has travelled the road many times and very recently. And I think that the goal of Wikipedia is "correct information", not "policies and standards." I have provided this site with correct information. I am asserting that the maps that you have consulted are inaccurate and/or incomplete. If you have not travelled the road recently, then going by these innacurrate/incomplete maps contributes incorrect information to the Wikipedia project. I'm sure there's a Wiki policy that innaccurate sources shouldn't be used. I will ask again, anyone criticizing me been on PA 43 at that interchange recently or many times? If not, perhaps you could consider that actually travelling the road presents a better pictures than maps.

Still, another policy that compliments WP:NOR is WP:VERIFY, which states that The threshold for inclusion in Wikipedia is verifiability, not truth. "Verifiable" in this context means that any reader should be able to check that material added to Wikipedia has already been published by a reliable source. Editors should provide a reliable source for material that is challenged or likely to be challenged, or it may be removed. Your claims are challenged by TMF and I, and you are not a reliable source since it is not published in any way (Wikipedia does not count). V60 VTalk - VDemolitions 00:30, 2 February 2007 (UTC)

Still have not stated whether or not you have been on the road. What maps are you using to challenge my claim, and how can I challenge their accuracy?

You may check the reliable sources that are specified. It doesn't matter if anybody's been on the road or not. Sources, policies, and standards come first; there is no room for original research. Your claims are in fact original research. What the reliable sources say are the content that can be on Wikipedia. Original research is prohibited at all times. V60 VTalk - VDemolitions 00:39, 2 February 2007 (UTC)

According to the PennDOT iTMS [2] (1) PA 43 does extend to US 40, (2) runs concurrent to US 119 and (3), by utilizing the PennDOT video log (man, I wish NYSDOT had something like this), it is evident that the guide signs for the exit to PA 43 on US 40 eastbound read "South PA 43/South US 119", not "To South PA 43/South US 119", implying that PA 43 does extend to US 40. --TMF Let's Go Mets - Stats 00:56, 2 February 2007 (UTC)

The "concurrency" may be as long as 200 yards. Oh wow. I'm still certain theres an "END PA 43" sign as 119 rejoins the expressway. Additionally, you have wasted countless time on something not anywhere near your geographic area.

So what? If PennDOT has proof, then it is absolute proof. No more reversions from you after I get TMF to revert back to the good revision. V60 VTalk - VDemolitions 01:49, 2 February 2007 (UTC)
By the way, if you are so concerned with citations, I challenge you to go through and remove EVERY thing on this page that is not cited. Most of the article isn't.

Original research is never acceptable and should be reverted. However, the IP has broken WP:3RR (even if the other editors had broken it, it would be removing OR and it would not matter). Thus, I am blocking for 24 hours. --Rschen7754 (talk - contribs) 04:03, 2 February 2007 (UTC)

Anon user, please sign your comments. --MPD T / C 04:32, 2 February 2007 (UTC)
A few comments on the topic: Anon editor, please stay cool and civil; people are much more willing to listen to what you have to say when you're not yelling at them. Also remember, signs aren't always right. There's a sign for a primary route that is the shape and colour of a business Interstate route (Business I-7...go figure); that doesn't mean it's a business Interstate route. The point is that they're not always right. To everyone else, good job on staying cool and handling the situation well.
Anon editor, when you return tomorrow, I encourage you to present your arguments with what you think is wrong with the article in a well-structured list (bulleted, use asterixes (*)). Also, it would be in your best interest to not use a different computer to argue; we'll wait. If you can find official sources backing up your claims and debunking ours, bring them along too. We'll look at it piece by piece, rather than taking it all at once. Also review our three-revert policy, it pertains directly to this situation. --MPD T / C 04:46, 2 February 2007 (UTC)

I've been trying to find something to validate the anon's claims, because essentially they are correct. Closest I can find is this: http://www.pahighways.com/exits/PATurnpike43exits.html If you check the exit lists south bound, after exit 8 you have an unnumbered exit to US 119 South, then and "End PA 43". Basically, if you start north of Uniontown, US 119 bypasses Uniontown and exits off the expressway south of Uniontown. If you get off the exit and go south, you are on US-119 South. If you go north off the exit, you are on Morgantown Road. But at any rate, at the point where US 119 goes on the exit ramp, PA 43 begins on the expressway. If you get on 43 at exit 8 and head northward, the next thing you come up on is an unnumbered exit for US-119 SOUTH and Morgantown Road (north). If you stay on the expressway, US-119 reenters the expressway via the ON ramp and PA 43 ENDs (there is indeed an "End PA 43" sign there). But if you check that website, which I believe is managed by PennDOT, its pretty clear that 43 Ends right there. There is no mention of concurrency with 119.--the fc 11:11, 2 February 2007 (EST)

Really correct... Also, to the above editor, if you want to play specifics, the PennDOT website I provided does not show a concurrency with US 119; instead, it displays PA 43 (technically SR 0043) as the sole route on the highway between Morgantown Road and US 40. I have provided numerous sources confirming that PA 43 extends to US 40; where are yours confirming that it doesn't?
Of course, we could resolve this issue by removing the exit list for the southern segment altogether. The article went without one for a number of months, and it didn't harm the article any. --TMF Let's Go Mets - Stats 21:39, 2 February 2007 (UTC)
PA 43 does indeed end at US 40. If you were to be technically correct down to the last foot, if you are heading northbound, theres an exit ramp for 119 S/Morgantown road, about 20 yards later you go under a bridge, 10 yards later US 119 N Enters the expressway and theres an exit for US 40 East at the same point. About 100 yards later US 40 W merges with US 119 N. So in the matter of 600 yards, theres an exit for US 119 S, US 119 N merges into the expressway, theres an exit for US 40 E, and US 40 W merges with the expressway. Its confusing. The signs in your source are not there any more. Construction was recently done to add on/off ramps for Walnut Hill Road and expand everything for the completion of the Uniontown-Brownsville link of PA 43. With all due respect, your source and all the pictures on it are out of date because that interchange has changed completely within the last two months. In fact, last time I was through there, they did not have standard road signs for the exit up yet. That site states the images are from 1993 and 1996, obviously they are out of date.--the fc 17:36, 2 February 2007 (EST)
I have no idea where you get 1993 and 1996 from. The caption below each image reads 2003, and a PennDOT video log from November 2005 (taken, I believe, at the outset of the construction) still shows the shields. Aside from that, you have now indicated that I am correct about PA 43's northern terminus, and that US 119 is forced to share the roadway with PA 43 for a quarter-mile. That looks like the definition of concurrency to me. --TMF Let's Go Mets - Stats 03:10, 3 February 2007 (UTC)
I appologize, I was looking at the dates on the terraserver imagery. At anyrate, completion of the Walnut Hill Rd interchange, which changed the 119/40/43 interchange as well, the photos on that page became obselete, as well as any video shot in 2005, because construction of the new interchange was just completed a few months ago. If you feel a quarter mile concurrency is worthy of putting on this site (I'm still not convinced that there is actually that concurrency, its just a matter of feet as to where PA 43 begins and ends), then by all means add it. However, I doubt very highly that most people really care that two route numbers share the same space for a quarter mile, or even a half mile. When the Uniontown-Brownsville section opens, there will be a significant US 119/PA 43 concurrency, which would be worthy of inclusion here, but that does not yet exist. Additionally, it was the implication of the old road signs that PA 43 N ended when US 119 N reentered the highway, and that PA 43 S began when US 119 S exitted the highway. Since the interchange has been changed, the addition of new road signs has not yet been completed. Not trying to be rude, but, as I would hope you can understand, when you have someone who has never travelled the road and is relying on internet sources vs. someone who has driven on the road hundreds of times, I think the more informed person is generally the person who has travelled the road. Internet sources are not 100% accurate, not even gov't sources. I would not presume to argue something like this with a road in an area with which I was not familiar. I am simply trying to add my "local expertise" to this site. (I've seen that phrased used in regard to the wiki highway project, and I think I apply to that term for this situation.--the fc 22:26, 2 February 2007 (EST)